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AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion


Chris Tomlin

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5 hours ago, Malakree said:

This isn't actually an issue.

If the MK is your general then when he dies you immediately elect another general, so another hero. You then get to generate a command trait for them. Choosing Prophet of the Waaagh! gives that character the Footboss' Waaagh! anyway so you can always do it as long as you still have heroes.

I heard that the Generals Handbook says you ignore that rule for matched play games.

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9 hours ago, Zambo said:

However is the new Ally limit 1unit in 4 (think I have read this somewhere?) or 20% of points as that’s what the Azyr app is showing.

Yes, you can only have a ratio of 1:4 for allies units (units not models) in addition to the points limit.

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Ive been saying pretty much what @Malakree has been saying as well. Ardboyz pretty much lost their place. Even in units of 10 I question adding them. 

Ironjawz are an elite army. Similar model count to SCE. Adding bodies just for the sake of adding bodies seems like a waste.

Im leaning towards a MSU Bloodtoofs approach with Brutes/Gruntas. +2 CP with 3 artefacts sounds like a good start to me

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Just noticed this about the Mighty Destroyers Ironjawz allegiance ability.  It changed to say "..than unit can immediately make a NORMAL MOVE if it is more than 12 inches away from the enemy, can immediately pile in if withing 3 inches..."(so on)  The important bit was a normal move.  They took out the part about not being able to run now.  A normal move means you can run after that.  So Gore-gruntas move 9 and can run. Then move 9 in the movement phase and run again.   OR THE MAWKRUSHA MOVES 12, RUNS, THEN IN MOVE PHASE MOVES 12 AND CHARGES OR RUNS AGAIN.   Seems like a big change.   Not sure how i hadn't noticed this or heard it yet.  Obviously need to make the roll still.

Did we already talk about this?

Edited by Superninja
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So I had a 2k game against Daughters of Khaine (Morathi, 3 hags, 3 medusai, 2x10 witches, big blob of 30 snake ladies, 10 doomfires) 

I intented to run Bloodtoofs but instead opted for Ironsunz because I took the bskewer and goldentoof and he was going to come at me anyway so the extra bonus to charging wouldn’t really have come in effect 

we played “Three Places of Power” where only wizards and heroes with artefacts could score 

My list had MBMK, MB, 2xWC, 15xbrutes, 9xgruntas
Gave him turn 1
Morathi blew my megaboss and warchanter off the board with magic - only giving me 1 guy left to score with 
Not much happened beyond that...
...till my turn 3 - going 2nd
Everything converging in the middle of the board
And my Megaboss on MK gave the biggest WAAAGH ever! 4 times the size of any WAAAAGH before
(Because I used 4 CP on it) 
Giving every unit within 15” an extra 4 attacks each! 
So his big blob of snake girls and witches got nicely wiped off the board
Next turn he transformed morathi and flung her into the centre (scoring a VP) and then blew apart my MK with ease. 

Having no units that could score and he already at 1VP I conceded

FUN AS GAME THOUGH!

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55 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

So I had a 2k game against Daughters of Khaine (Morathi, 3 hags, 3 medusai, 2x10 witches, big blob of 30 snake ladies, 10 doomfires) 

Unless im wrong or you miss rememberd, he has 7 heros ergo cheated so you win by default :D

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1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Just noticed this about the Mighty Destroyers Ironjawz allegiance ability.  It changed to say "..than unit can immediately make a NORMAL MOVE if it is more than 12 inches away from the enemy, can immediately pile in if withing 3 inches..."(so on)  The important bit was a normal move.  They took out the part about not being able to run now.  A normal move means you can run after that.  So Gore-gruntas move 9 and can run. Then move 9 in the movement phase and run again.   OR THE MAWKRUSHA MOVES 12, RUNS, THEN IN MOVE PHASE MOVES 12 AND CHARGES OR RUNS AGAIN.   Seems like a big change.   Not sure how i hadn't noticed this or heard it yet.  Obviously need to make the roll still.

Did we already talk about this?

You can't run and charge.

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Just played my first game of 2.0 against Nighthaunt and it was a major victory. Mighty Destroyers went off multiple times giving the Maw Krusha a bunch of free 16 inch moves that let him zone in on key heroes. A 4 Waaagh combat took out about 60% of their army. Cogs was unbelievable, I got it off on turn one deep in my deployment zone so he couldn't counterspell and was able to move fast enough to tie up most of his units right away so they got no benefit from it. Jaws was taken just for fun and never got successfully cast. I really love all of the changes and can't wait to experiment more with the new artifacts.  Gore gruntas are great because the waaaghs give more attacks to the riders and the pigs which ended up as a ton of extra damage especially with how easy it is to land the 8" charge in bloodtoofs. 


Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha
Orruk Warchanter 
Orruk Megaboss 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys
5 x Orruk Brutes 
5 x Orruk Brutes 
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas 
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas 

Battalions
Ironfist 
Bloodtoofs

Chronomantic Cogs
Ravenaks Gnashing Jaws


 

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11 minutes ago, Jgroover said:

giving the Maw Krusha a bunch of free 16 inch moves

Do you mean 14" move?  He has a base move of 12" plus the 2 from cogs.

 

12 minutes ago, Jgroover said:

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha
Orruk Warchanter 
Orruk Megaboss 
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys
5 x Orruk Brutes 
5 x Orruk Brutes 
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas 
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas 

Battalions
Ironfist 
Bloodtoofs

Chronomantic Cogs
Ravenaks Gnashing Jaws

I'm going to try a similar list this week.

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Hey Warbosses,

In a few weeks I am at an event and wanted to run my list past you all.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Weirdfist (180)
Swords (20)
Total: 2000/ 2000
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 104

I'm a bit limited by model choice as this is my only core units but I could mix up the characters, I could drop the swords and weirdfist for two rock lobbers.

Anyway 2 monsters with artifacts (my book isn't here so not sure what to take), 2 wizards, battalion for the CP and make it a 5 drop list

What say you ?

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54 minutes ago, Superninja said:

Ohp you are right, i thought i was if they hadn't run in the movement phase, my bad. But still seems like a big change, with good and bad ripples.

You can doubleove double run 36" across the board to a fungoid shaman and charge

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50 minutes ago, Lardidar said:

Hey Warbosses,

In a few weeks I am at an event and wanted to run my list past you all.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Weirdfist (180)
Swords (20)
Total: 2000/ 2000
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 104

I'm a bit limited by model choice as this is my only core units but I could mix up the characters, I could drop the swords and weirdfist for two rock lobbers.

Anyway 2 monsters with artifacts (my book isn't here so not sure what to take), 2 wizards, battalion for the CP and make it a 5 drop list

What say you ?

Take the rock lobbers with this list. You need movable bodies and the weird fist will force you to keep too much back, leaving you with not enough to play with

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3 hours ago, tolstedt said:

Do you mean 14" move?  He has a base move of 12" plus the 2 from cogs.

Oops, should have meant that, I did play it as 16 with cogs but that isn't right. I think I glanced at the wounds when checking movement. I don't think it would have made a difference but I'll let my opponent know.  I also had the gryph feather charm but forgot to add that movement the whole game. Still that mighty destroyers change is sweet with krusha, makes me want to try running two. 

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11 hours ago, Jgroover said:

Oops, should have meant that, I did play it as 16 with cogs but that isn't right. I think I glanced at the wounds when checking movement. I don't think it would have made a difference but I'll let my opponent know.  I also had the gryph feather charm but forgot to add that movement the whole game. Still that mighty destroyers change is sweet with krusha, makes me want to try running two. 

I like the movement change as well. very strong with gruntas as a screen or ardboys with plus three to charge as a tarpit.

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38 minutes ago, tolstedt said:

I like the movement change as well. very strong with gruntas as a screen or ardboys with plus three to charge as a tarpit.

IIRC ardboys can get up to +6 to charge with Bloodtoof, Ironjawz Allegiance, Drummers and Cogs

Edited by Primique
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Just ran some quick numbers to see which of our battleline units gets the most out of each waaagh. Here are those results. Brutes end up pulling ahead, and by quite a bit if they get their exclusive buffs. I was excited about the Gore Gruntas but it turns out they don't get as much out of it as I expected. Ardboys with 2-handers actually get quite a lot per waaagh as well. 

Dual Wield Ardboys x10
3.44 Wounds 0 rend

2-Hander Ardboys x10
3.44 Wounds -1 rend

Gore Gruntas x3
1.33 Wounds  -1 rend from riders
+
.75 Wound 0 rend from boars
or
1.5 Wounds 0 rend from boars if Grunta Charging

Brutes x5 with Boss Klaw + Smasha and a Gore Choppa
2.67 Wounds at -1 rend
+
.67 at -2 rend if Boss Klaw gets no hits
or
1.33 at -2 rend if Boss Klaw gets any hits

Brutes x5 with Boss Klaw + Smasha and a Gore Choppa w/ Megaboss Rerolling 1s
3.12 Wounds at -1 rend
+
.78 at -2 rend if Boss Klaw gets no hits
or
1.33 at -2 rend if Boss Klaw gets any hits

Brutes x5 with Boss Klaw + Smasha and a Gore Choppa against 4+ Wound Target
3.78 Wounds at -1 rend
+
.1 at -2 rend if Boss Klaw gets no hits
or
1.33 at -2 rend if Boss Klaw gets any hits

Edited by Jgroover
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I'm not terribly surprised at those numbers.  Getting an extra attack per weapon per guy means that the more models in combat a unit has the better it uses the buff.

But, it might be worth running the numbers on the Ardboyz and the Gruntas again and factoring in a Warchanter buff - also possibly the brutes as well.  If you are rolling in some units with Waaagh! buffs on them then I expect that you will have a warchanter buff or two in that combo as well.  Obviously Brutes are still going to be the best when you add in a Warchanter buff, but they already have good to-hit values and you may be charging multiple opponents and consider using the warchanter buff on a different unit.

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@Skabnoze Good point. Here are the numbers with 1 and 2 warchanters buffing the unit. Brutes have severe diminishing returns and don't improve past ~5 wounds at -1 rend and 1.33 wounds at -2 rend with any combination of buffs. This seems to indicate that the best target of our battleline for warchanters is two handed Ardboys. 
 

One Warchanter buffing the unit:
Ardboys x10 
5.98 Wounds, 2-hander units get -1 rend

Gore Gruntas x3
1.94 Wounds  -1 rend from riders
+
.1.33 Wound 0 rend from boars
or
2.67 Wounds 0 rend from boars if Grunta Charging

Two Warchanters buffing the unit:
Ardboys x10 
6.48 Wounds, 2-hander units get -1 rend

Gore Gruntas x3
1.94 Wounds  -1 rend from riders
+
.1.46Wound 0 rend from boars
or
2.92 Wounds 0 rend from boars if Grunta Charging

Edited by Jgroover
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@Jgroover Running the numbers through Druchii.net for the different ones with a single Waaagh! buff and the opponent having a save of 6+, obv it's not great but it includes the rend into the numbers.

graph.php?q=r:430:10:1:m000&f=isv&s= For Ardboys

graph.php?q=r:446:3:d3:m000;r:330:3:1:m0 For Gore-Gruntas with the 8" charge.

 

In terms of pure raw numbers Ardboys are ahead by a pretty significant margin, even up to 2σ
Ardboys cost ~14% more than GG's so if we increase the GGs 1σ by 1.14 we get an average of 2.94. This means that point for point the Ardboys are a better average with less variance compared to the GG's who have a worse average but higher variance (potential).

A very interesting math but I think they are close enough that it's less relevant than the other differences between the units. Ty for pointing it out though, surprised me aswell.

EDIT: Single Waaagh! with 1 WC buff

graph.php?q=r:330:10:1:m000&f=isv&s=&t=0 graph.php?q=r:230:3:1:m000;r:346:3:d3:m0 

Full attacks with 1 Waagh! and WC buff

graph.php?q=r:330:30:1:m000&f=isv&s=&t=0 

graph.php?q=r:230:13:1:m000;r:346:15:d3:

This is where the GG's really pull out ahead in terms of the WC buff. Their raw number of attacks is high enough to make it worth it over the Ardboys.

All of this assumes a 6+ save ofc so is situational, also assuming d3 damage from the charge because it's more obtainable now.

Edited by Malakree
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Just now, Malakree said:

A very interesting math but I think they are close enough that it's less relevant than the other differences between the units. Ty for pointing it out though, surprised me aswell.

I agree.

The units are different enough that you are most likely not using them for the same purposes.  Each of the main battle line choices for Ironjawz are fairly similar in terms of damage output but slightly different in other areas.  Brutes hit harder than anyone most of the time, Gruntas are faster and concentrate attacks better given the lower number of models, and Ardboyz are more of an anvil than the other units.  You are probably going to use these units for the same reasons as before, but it is still useful to know how effective our buffs are on all of the units.

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Added a new pair of tables above, again in response to @Jgroover This is the same but with Brutes, obv they benefit the most from a Waaagh! so just running the WC buff vs no WC buff at 1 Waaagh! lvl with RR1s (Very easy to get them now with damned, Footboss or 4+ wounds)

graph.php?q=r:330:15:1:m100;r:430:2:2:m1 

graph.php?q=r:230:15:1:m100;r:330:2:2:m1 

So at 1 Waaagh! Brutes gain 3.35 ish extra damage, (this ignores the extra rend on the smasha because everything is on 6+)
Variance change is +0.46

graph.php?q=r:430:27:1:m000;r:330:3:1:m0 

graph.php?q=r:330:27:1:m000;r:230:3:1:m0 

Same Situation but for 10 Ardboys who gain 3.34 damage
Variance change is +0.67

graph.php?q=r:330:13:1:m000;r:446:15:d3: 

graph.php?q=r:230:13:1:m000;r:346:15:d3:

Finally for GG's who add 3.53 damage
Variance change is +.83

So in terms of the gain on average damage from a WC buff it's GG's > Brutes = 2h Ardboys however it's actually very similar across all the units. If we then compare the change in σ we see that for the reliability of the damage increase it's Brutes > 2h Ardboys > GG's.

Based on that it looks as though your best target for the Warchanter buff is Brutes > 2h Ardboys > GG's
Given that Brutes are hitting on 3s for most of their weapons and auto hitting if the claw hits, plus have RR's out the ****** the second WC buff is irrelevant to them. Equally a large part of the GG's attacks are going to cap at 2+ from the first WC.

Lastly including the Ardboys with 1 WC Buff to 2 buffs

graph.php?q=r:330:27:1:m000;r:230:3:1:m0
graph.php?q=r:230:30:1:m000&f=isv&s=&t=0 

A flat increase of 3 damage with no increase in variance at all.

Conclusion

The targets for a WC buff should generally be 5 Brutes > 2nd buff on Ardboys > 1st buff on Ardboys > GG's.

That is an incredibly interesting result I would not have expected, solid call there on checking that math.

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