AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Izikail]

How many ard boys do you tend to run in a squad. Keep it min 10 or go for a bigger blob?

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Izikail said:

How many ard boys do you tend to run in a squad. Keep it min 10 or go for a bigger blob?

I used to run them as 30 but I think with the recent faq to their shield they will probably just be worse than more brutes or ggs. Especially given some of the other changes like golden toof, which now gives a 12" battleshock immunity aura, and the IP change.

The big unit is just to many points for a tarpit with such a glaring weakness.

Also I feel that msu brutes/ggs will be better for pulling a mega battalion which is now amazing for us.

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Also I feel that msu brutes/ggs will be better for pulling a mega battalion which is now amazing for us.

Im thinking Bloodtoofs will be great now

[Sangfroid]

Agree with both @Malakree and @Malakithe though the ardboyz in 2x10 or a 20 maybe handy for weirdfist lists or maybe just a single 10 in other formations for some bodies. I used to love running 3x10 with megabrutes lists so maybe a more classic ironjawz approach can work now too 

mawkrusha (ironclad, golden toof)

megaboss (offensive weapon or movement cloak or the shadow cloak) 

fungoid cave shaman 

10 ardboyz

10 ardboyz

15 brutes

3 pigs

3 pigs

ironfist 

20 pt endless spell (quite like the swords) 

=2000

[Izikail]

15 ardboys. Well thats an egg/baskit situation

How are people running there weirdfist lists? Its wht im most intrested in but im still super new to aos and ironjawz

[Malakree]

So looking at the points cost, errata and changes to IJ allegiance ability I have the following conclusions.

1. Ardboys are now worthless in blocks of 20 or 30. Take them as 10s to fill battalion slots and bodies for the weirdnob.
2. Our overall lists basically won't change.
3. Warchanters are the same as always.
4. Allied wizards are going to be important because they bring what the weirdnob doesn't. Especially true with the lower model count.
5. Ironfist is more mandatory than ever, thus nullifying the MK points decrease.
6. Our big choice now is to Mega-battalion or not to Mega-battalion.
7. MSU Brutes with Waaagh! is probably the way to go.
8. 2+ Warchanters will be core.
9. Footboss is still mediocre because of his 10" Waaagh! and points cost being to high. Warchanters are just better.
10. Specific Tournament rules will greatly influence our ability to compete.
11. Uglu or Hysh are our realm of origin. Sword of Judgement/Spell Mirror vs Lens of Refraction/Mirrored Cuirass nothing else competes.

So to give reasons for this in relevant blocks. 

Ardboys now don't have the survivability advantage they used vs mortal wounds, those being the big thing the shields were used for. With Battalions becoming more important (and the Ironfist more expensive) the space for them has decreased at the same time their effectiveness got hit. Brutes do the same thing but better now.

Cost wise we have had a 20 point drop if you have either a megabattalion or 2 mawkrushas. As they said in the podcast, MASSIVE, meaning huge changes in what we can field in our armies.

Spells got more powerful but the number of models we are fielding is dropping so the weirdnob isn't really changing in power. Either grot shamans, for the low points cost, or a Wurrgog Prophet, for the multiple spells, both got better making the weirdnob relatively worse.

With spells gaining in power and us becoming even more focused around big Waaagh! turns we no longer have the points to burn on a Footboss, Given that there is no restriction on how many times a single megaboss can Waaagh! multiple times in a turn (no srsly) you are better off spending those 140 points on 2 (or maybe 3) extra command points, its just better.

The Command points and greater choice in good artefacts means that battalions got even stronger, the Ironfist out-competes everything else for pure power at it's cost level. Given this, and the fact a cabbage is now completely mandatory, the megabattalions is amazing with the only question being if you can get the full Ironfist in your list and spare the 120 points. Combined with the Waaagh! effect this means that the Brute Boss and his Claw/Smasha is now hands down our best battleline option for pure combat potential. All of this rolls together into 5x5 Brutes in a mega-battalion being the basis which all Ironjawz armies must be measured against.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 1640 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 89

2 command points, 3 artefacts, 1 drop and 360 points spare.

The artefact option from a realm really comes down to what you want and whats strong in the meta. Spells dominating? Take Lens of Refraction or Spell Mirror. Need to keep your cabbage alive vs things like Skyfires then Mirrored Cuirass is a solid choice (though I would argue take Daubing of Mork and one of the other 3). Really just need to be able to delete an obnoxious enemy hero/monster? Sword of Judgement on a warchanter is probably the most ridiculous thing ever.

Below is probably the most ridiculous hero killing tool combo in the game. I don't think ANYTHING else competes.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
-Prophet of the Waaagh!
Orruk Warchanter (80)
-Sword of Judgement
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (10)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119

Turn 1 put all 5 warchanter buffs on the WC and use 3 Waaagh! Statistically you will generate just less than 4 extra attacks.

Your Warchanter is then making 8 attacks, due to his +5 to hit he has the following effects on his attacks.

1. On a 2+ the attack sequence terminates and the attack deals d6 mortal wounds to the target instead.
2. On a 2+ you then make an extra attack with his weapon.

This means that you are solidly are going to be inflicting 6d6 mortal wounds onto the target (18-24) then making another 6 attacks either against the target if it isn't dead or another hero/monster in range if you can. Essentially for 80 points and an artefact you can delete any single hero or monster from the board. I don't think there is any character in the game which can soak a LOW end of 30 mortal wounds to the face. 

Even if your opponent kills him you still have 4 warchanters and a solid army to use, it's utter filth. If your opponent CAN'T kill him for some reason you can run round deleting heroes/monsters.

Lastly dealing with the tournament rules. If we are allowed to use the spells of the realm our army comes from (what I think would be the best ruling) as if it were an allegiance lore then that essentially gives all armies an extra lore for their wizards to choose from. This makes Ironjawz much better in the spell game because we don't have those options naturally. It also makes the realm artefact vs spell choices a very interesting dynamic.

If we are forced to use a random realm each time it adds huge variability in the power of our wizards. If for some reason the lore ends up being bad then our wizards don't have the innate spells to fall back on, unlike tzeentch or bonesplitterz, so our magic power level fluctuates wildly.

 

That is my reasoning for the above statements. Feel free to criticise/discuss.

[tolstedt]

This is what I will run if you can stack waaaghs off a single maw krusha

Allegiance: Destruction

 

Leaders

Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
-Artefact:  Blade of Judgement
-General:  Live to Fight

Gordrakk The Fist of Gork (580)

 

Battleline

 

Units

6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)

3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

 

Battalions

Ironfist (180)

Bloodtoofs (120)

 

Total: 1880/ 2000

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 89

 

Command Points:  4

Edited June 30, 2018 by tolstedt

[tolstedt]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Orruk Warchanter (80)
-Sword of Judgement
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

This is amazing.

 

[Lardidar]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

• On a 2+ the attack sequence terminates and the attack deals d6 mortal wounds to the target instead.
• On a 2+ you then make an extra attack with his weapon.

Am I being dense or would you not just need 4 chanters to get the proc on a 6+

I think you are a genious for spotting this, I'm not sure it will get much play but splatting something big while playing bongos is about as orc'y as it gets.

[Malakree]

15 minutes ago, Lardidar said:

Am I being dense or would you not just need 4 chanters to get the proc on a 6+

I think you are a genious for spotting this, I'm not sure it will get much play but splatting something big while playing bongos is about as orc'y as it gets.

You are correct, at the time I was just to busy facepalming over the whole thing.

I mean it's not like I made any comments about this or anything a while ago.

On 1/1/2018 at 4:30 AM, Malakree said:

Warchanter - Frenzy of Violence(Fov) is 1 unit for next combat phase only, probably undercosted, FoV stacking is a thing.

After all that would be ridiculous

On 1/31/2018 at 3:03 PM, Malakree said:

On a 6+ to hit inflict mortal wounds. This and the previous are an incestuous pair who serve to hide and exacerbate each other. The only reason the save stacking is allowed to exist is because you have armies which just ignore them with their normal attacks, while this is only allowed to exist because otherwise stardrakes would be immortal. "Bloodletters" is both the best name and archetypal example of this.

On 1/31/2018 at 3:03 PM, Malakree said:

The only other change needed is to change all"on a roll of" to require that result BEFORE MODIFIERS so that a roll of 6+ is no longer altered by +/- to hit which allows those units to be costed far more easily and be much more robust with regards to changes going on around the unit. For example a +1 to hit for daemons aura at the moment would either be overcosted for 99% of armies or broken as all hell with bloodletters. This being an amazing example of how the health is negatively impacted by the current state of affairs.

 

EDIT: As an additional note the first idea of it came from @svnvaldez in this post

Edited June 30, 2018 by Malakree

[Skabnoze]

There is a lot of stacking junk that will break this game sideways for a while.  I expect there will be an errata in a month or two that will have to fix a lot of stuff they did not catch on release.

The Moonclan warlord command ability stacking is so hilariously broken that I really don’t expect to see it last long once people start blowing up Nagash, Alariel, or Archaeon with just 1-2 grot spears.

[Skabnoze]

So I keep seeing people say Ardboyz are terrible now and the only thing I see referenced is the clarification that shields don’t stop mortal wounds.  Is there something else also, or is that it?  That is the only change to them I see other than a general cost reduction.

While mortal wounds are not uncommon, they are also not usually the most common form of damage.  The ability only works on a 6 in the first place.  I just don’t see this as a massive reduction in survivability.  They have the same save as Brutes and now for 160 points you get 20 wounds compared to 180 points for 15 wounds with Brutes.  

They still seem like the best unit in the army for grabbing objectives or using as a big tough anvil.  And with both banners and some shields they are still quite tough to shift off a point.  Their damage profile is not that much lower than Brutes when using the big choppas.  Brutes are undoubtedly better in combat and have the boss & unit weapon upgrades, but it seems to me that Ardboyz still have a place and are useful.

I guess I am just missing something.

[Arbaal]

Excuse me... But... Ignax Scales from the realm of fire aren't just better of all the magic items you're talking about for our mawkrusha?

 

[sporadicMike]

54 minutes ago, Arbaal said:

Excuse me... But... Ignax Scales from the realm of fire aren't just better of all the magic items you're talking about for our mawkrusha?

 

Was coming here to post this same question. I loved it in the original ghb when I was able to get a 4 up mortal wound save. 

[Superninja]

Played today, 1000pts , took something different. It isn't exactly optimal, but it ended up fun.  Failed Foot of Gork twice (I have yet to succeed...)  Used Inspiring Presence twice early, no Waagh! The endless spells were the star of the show. I used Quicksilver on his General(4 wounds i think)However, Quicksilver got used on my megaboss on the 2nd turn(opp chose 2nd), allowing me to get the double turn.  As I went in for attack during the 2nd turn, i cast geminids, hitting 3 of his units with both of them.  I then charged in with my megaboss and a unit of brutes and cleaned it up.  

Megaboss on foot-140 Ironclad/Daubing

Weirdnob x2           -240

Brutes(5) x2             -360

Orruks(10)x2          -160 Bows/Cuttas

Balewind                    -40

Quicksilver               -20

Geminids                    -40

 

[Lanoss]

Ruling please

waaagh! Ability

can it be used multiple times by one megaboss in the phase?

ie. 4 command points to pull 4 big WAAAAGHS!

Verdict?

[Skabnoze]

In regards to Ardboyz I think we should also not overlook some of the less obvious features of the unit:  model count and area footprint.

I think those 2 things can be more important than we sometimes consider.  I have not fully read the new rule books, but from what I understand they have now moved the core rules for scenarios such as the mechanics of scoring into the core rulebook and then the scenarios now reference those rules.  Also scoring for units is tied to model-count and not to wounds.  I think this makes Ardboyz potentially the best scenario scoring unit in Ironjawz and not just at minimum unit size.

The area footprint of a unit is still useful for a variety of tactics such as screening, area denial, blocking out zones, etc.  Ardboyz have a much larger footprint than any of the other Ironjawz units. 

I’m not saying that Ardboyz are better than Brutes or Gruntas, but I am saying that I think they have their own niche and role that they do better than other units.  I still think people are poo-pooing them a bit too much.

[Zambo]

Hi guys can someone please clarify a rules query for me 

looking at allies for my IJ n thinking 40 orks with shield n choppa will be a great tool to hold objective and act as bodies foe Weirdnob to blast foot 

However is the new Ally limit 1unit in 4 (think I have read this somewhere?) or 20% of points as that’s what the Azyr app is showing.

would appreciate a heads up

cheers ? 

[Malakree]

5 minutes ago, Zambo said:

However is the new Ally limit 1unit in 4 (think I have read this somewhere?) or 20% of points as that’s what the Azyr app is showing.

Both...

The ardboy thing, for me anyway, is to do with the unit of 30. Yes the mw save was a key part of why they were good as a massive unit, it's removal really hampers them as a large tarpit unit, especially in light of how good bloodtoofs now is. 

They are still ok as 10s but some of the other changes aswell, goldentoof, nullify their other advantages like being good vs battleshock, daisy chain for buffs etc. Finally the ironjawz move now being restricted to wholly within 12" is the last nail, a key tactic was to fire them across the board with a ton of hero phase movement and pin the opponent in their deployment.

4 hours ago, Lanoss said:

Ruling please

waaagh! Ability

can it be used multiple times by one megaboss in the phase?

ie. 4 command points to pull 4 big WAAAAGHS!

Verdict?

The rules dude at the open day couldn't find a reason against when I asked.

 

7 hours ago, Arbaal said:

Excuse me... But... Ignax Scales from the realm of fire aren't just better of all the magic items you're talking about for our mawkrusha?

 

Will read again later. Was fricking knackered.

[Mortaal]

I think the magic item realms all offer different strengths, I feel personally that Chamon is one of the strongest realms to choose from, granting a -3 rend, -1 to hit in melee, as wel as an extra dispell for the shaman.

As I see it, if you cant outcast the opponent, why not just lock it all down with a double dispell and a malevolent maelstrom? It may be also hindering our own magic, but I feel with Ironjawz that was never really the point of the army. 

[Sangfroid]

Some of the battle plans require either a Hero with artefact or a wizard to score, this is why I think a megaboss is actually a decent choice now plus there are some excellent items/weapons as well depending on how you want to use him plus he gets a look out sir. 

For example the Gryph-feather charm in Ghur (-1 to hit and +1 to move) is a solid choice keeping him an overall -2 to shooting screen some models around him and he will be tough to shift with out magic or effort 

i also like the doppelgänger cloak (shadow) charge him right into the middle of a big unit of something nasty also charge the flank with some brutes or whatever, fight with them first then enemy goes but has to pile into nearest model but cannot attack the megaboss so will limit the attacks back on the brutes, then you can go with megaboss meaning he stays free from harm. 

Golden toof is incredibly strong on our Mawkrusha but if going Bloodtoofs there is a argument that it’s not really that efficient so take da boss skewer on the foot boss for a decent 18” cumulative +3 bravery bubble) and something defensive or nasty on the Mawkrusha (like the banshee blade (Shyish) and it’s combo with Da boss skewer and endless spells that reduce bravery or crucible of molten silver (chamon) for extra mortals maybe).

The other thing to consider is while the Mawkrusha can use waaagh multiple times having a footboss means you can spread the waaagh wider if needed as well as have some redundancy if someone ganks off the MK early. 

A lot of the items are really strong (lens of refraction as mentioned above) but are one dimensional some are more subtle but could be devastating (doppelgänger cloak) other just plan in useful all the time (green glade flask heal d6 wounds once per game) I’m really liking the customisation options available to us now even if it doesn’t make us suddenly Tier 3 to Tier 1 I do feel we may have snuck back into tier 2 comfortably ?

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

The other thing to consider is while the Mawkrusha can use waaagh multiple times having a footboss means you can spread the waaagh wider if needed as well as have some redundancy if someone ganks off the MK early. 

This isn't actually an issue.

If the MK is your general then when he dies you immediately elect another general, so another hero. You then get to generate a command trait for them. Choosing Prophet of the Waaagh! gives that character the Footboss' Waaagh! anyway so you can always do it as long as you still have heroes.

[Sangfroid]

Yeah good point and maybe a final use for the Prophet of the waaagh ? I still want to try and squeeze a MB into my list he does for me feel just about worth his points (120 would have been perfect btw)

[mikethefish]

I'm sorry, but the idea that the 30-strong Ardboyz unit is now worthless because of the shield nerfs is just complete and utter reactionary nonsense.  If blocking one of six incoming MW's was somehow the key to that unit's effectiveness, then you are, quite franky, doing it wrong.

Edited July 1, 2018 by mikethefish

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, mikethefish said:

I'm sorry, but the idea that the 30-strong Ardboyz unit is now worthless because of the shield nerfs is just complete and utter reactionary nonsense.  If blocking one of six incoming MW's was somehow the key to that unit's effectiveness, then you are, quite franky, doing it wrong.

Hence why I also referenced all the other changes which have also occurred which make the choice less appealing with this being the final nail.

Blocking 1 in 6 mortal wounds IS massive for a unit which has 30 wounds over 15 models. Due to how it stacks up you are on average adding 7 extra wounds to the unit with 15 shields and because of how large the Ardboy base/unit is it's almost impossible to get the unit entirely into combat anyway. End result is that you take part of the unit with shields and part with the offensive weaponry, like the big choppas. This means that you are getting the best of both worlds. Losing the Mortal Wound protection is really painful for their ability to tarpit effectively, which is their main role.

Roll in the points cost decrease and we now only save 30 points for going up to a massive unit. 
The increased power of a Mega-battalion which requires a full Ironfist
Objectives no longer giving priority to units of 20+
Increased usability and power of the Waaagh! making having 6 Ironjawz in range all the more key.
General improvement in our ability to resist devestating battleshocks
Many of which now require you to be wholly within range
Like the change to the Ironjawz trait which means you can no longer daisy chain Ardboys to get 12-18" of IJ movement if it procs

All of those then combine to make taking a single unit of 30 not particularly beneficial against just taking three units of 10. It costs you 30 points more but gives far more flexibility and is much more resistant to a whole bunch of affects that count unit size. Also at unit size 10 battleshock is basically a none issue because of their banners and the above mentioned moral buffs, so Bloodtoofs, Boss Skewer etc.

Overall there are a whole bunch of changes which occurred tangentially to make 30 Ardboys much less appealing and the lose of the shield MW save means that large mixed weapon blocks of them aren't as good at tarpiting aggressively. 

2 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

Yeah good point and maybe a final use for the Prophet of the waaagh ? I still want to try and squeeze a MB into my list he does for me feel just about worth his points (120 would have been perfect btw)

I think 120 would be good or having his Waaagh! increased to 15" instead of 10". That's his biggest restriction imo, it's so much harder to get a proper Waaagh! off compared to the Cabbage. A range increase would be worth the extra 20 points.