AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[sporadicMike]

1 hour ago, broche said:

Right now knowing that the MK can move 12'' with the hero phase free move, i'll have hard time using another general. Being able to move the MK 24'' on a 4+ each turn just seem too powerful. It's sad that fungoid can only use his command if he is the general.

However i'm sure there's a good mixed destro list with him.

My feeling is you are only gonna get the move the first turn and only then if you get the first turn. After that you will have enemy units within 12" and be forced to charge. 

So you can make fungoid the general and set him next to the mbmk and get turn one 24" move. 

I'm torn because I like Iron clad so much but have had times where the fungoid command ability helped reposition. 

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by sporadicMike

[broche]

Hum that true. I still think it's key at some point in game to have the possibility to make that big move idependantly of Fungoid (and fungoid give run and charge so it just 3-4 inch extra range)

I feel being able to get this extra 12'' on a likely basis,in battle round 1, or late game in battle round 4-5 can really be game breaking.

I might end up just playing mix destruction to have it all hahaha

[broche]

It's unfortunate, so for mix destruction it's still the old 6'' rules. Damn i tough i had a really good mixed list, but it seem IJ ability is just strictly better now

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

I was toying around today with a non-Maw Krusha army to investigate the idea of throwing multiple threats at the enemy while maintaining solid support 

LEADERS

Orruk Megaboss (140) - General - Command Trait : Brutish Cunning - Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80) - Artefact : The Boss Skewer
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warboss (140) - Great Waaagh Banner - Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80) - Allies

UNITS
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

BATTALIONS Ironfist (180)

TOTAL: 2000/2000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1
WOUNDS: 150

If/whem I have an endless spell, I would drop one of the warchanters and throw in a Cogmatic Gears or the jaws. The Ironfist should help regardless.

Interesting question I also realized: if we use Rampaging Destroyers, we can now run after the basic movement, but Ironfist still does not allow us to run. I would assume the battalion rule overrules the allegiance ability if we use that specific roll, yes?

[Malakree]

31 minutes ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

Interesting question I also realized: if we use Rampaging Destroyers, we can now run after the basic movement, but Ironfist still does not allow us to run. I would assume the battalion rule overrules the allegiance ability if we use that specific roll, yes?

Ironfist means you move d6" the rampaging destroyers means you can make a normal move.

You can do both.

[Jgroover]

33 minutes ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

Interesting question I also realized: if we use Rampaging Destroyers, we can now run after the basic movement, but Ironfist still does not allow us to run. I would assume the battalion rule overrules the allegiance ability if we use that specific roll, yes?

What does one have to do with the other? I don't get it. 

[Skumbaagh]

It seems one can run in the rampaging destroyers if one does not want to charge later in the turn. With ironfist this means one can get off a move and run in the hero phase, then move and run again in the movement phase with a total of M+D6+D6+M+D6=2M+3D6. With the cogs and wings one can add another 2+4+2+4=12 to that. 

[sporadicMike]

3 hours ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

I was toying around today with a non-Maw Krusha army to investigate the idea of throwing multiple threats at the enemy while maintaining solid support

I've been doing the same thing. Ran a similar list to this the other night. The megaboss was able to kill a lord on manticore before being destroyed by spells. 

Really fun when you can use sword of judgement on 6 dice with +2 to hit!

Same as you I'd probably add cogs at some point. 

King Slayer

 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
- Allies
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Waaaaggh Banner
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Units
20 x Orruks (160)
- Choppas & Shields
- Allies

Battalions
Ironfist (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 380 / 400
Wounds: 146

 

[Sangfroid]

@sporadicMike nice list I really like the idea of the Doppleganger cloak will be really keen to see how you get on with it!

[Ravinsild]

What's the best way to run a Gorefist? Apparently this is now our go-to battalion as opposed to Ironfist? And/or Weirdfist. This is great though, more options and ways to play! I like Ironfist (bloodtoofs too), Weirdfist AND Gorefist. I wouldn't hate trying out a Brutefist just to see for myself why nobody uses it, and Ardfist seems like it has some potential for...something. 

Anyway: What's the typical Gorefist list look like? I've heard tale of 2 Maw-Krusha lists or ways to use the Fist of Gork Mr. Gordrakk himself? 

I also find it interesting how the beginning of this thread began with a lot of Bloodtoof lists with Cogs, and people were fairly certain that was the best way to go, but now allegedly Gorefist and Weirdfist are the best ways to go. What changed since then? 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Ravinsild

[broche]

18 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

What's the best way to run a Gorefist? Apparently this is now our go-to battalion as opposed to Ironfist? And/or Weirdfist. This is great though, more options and ways to play! I like Ironfist (bloodtoofs too), Weirdfist AND Gorefist. I wouldn't hate trying out a Brutefist just to see for myself why nobody uses it, and Ardfist seems like it has some potential for...something. 

Anyway: What's the typical Gorefist list look like? I've heard tale of 2 Maw-Krusha lists or ways to use the Fist of Gork Mr. Gordrakk himself? 

I also find it interesting how the beginning of this thread began with a lot of Bloodtoof lists with Cogs, and people were fairly certain that was the best way to go, but now allegedly Gorefist and Weirdfist are the best ways to go. What changed since then? 

Gorefist was already the most competitive list before GHB 2018 for IJ. Now you get a 40 pts discount on Godrack, and 30 pts on the bataillion (almost a warchanter). But more important, you can now use more command over the course of the game (like with a greenskin warboss). So it's just strictly better. Ironjawz want to be in combat ASAP, and gorefist does exactly that. Plus pig are a tad cheap for what they does.

Weirdfist got a discount, balewind at 40 pts for double cast and base -1 to hit on shaman in shooting, and new item to protect him. Also got 20 pts discount on ardboys, so it's another 40-60 pts saving total (Cause weirdfist want 2-3 of those)

I think both where better than ironfist pre-GHB18, now ironfist is just 20 pts more expensive and while it's not bad, in the end it just make your army a bit faster than average (but still slower than most army)

Unfortunatly, brutefist is still bad... it should cost like 120 to be playable. Ardfist as indeed potential i think (basicaly if you manage to bring back 10 ardboyz it's a net 10 pts for a CP and an artefact)

[Malakree]

50 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

I also find it interesting how the beginning of this thread began with a lot of Bloodtoof lists with Cogs, and people were fairly certain that was the best way to go, but now allegedly Gorefist and Weirdfist are the best ways to go. What changed since then? 

Essentially there are three bases for an Ironjawz list, which are the three stronger Battalions.

1. Ironfist - Your generic catchall that fits with any Ironjawz allegiance list.
2. Gorefist - The Ironjawz alpha-strike list, abuses the Big G to ensure you can get in combat turn 1 and do massive damage.
3. Weirdfist - Previously more of a cheese list built around throwing out Foot of Gork and hoping for 30+ mortal wounds off it.

The Gorefist list didn't really change, we know it's strong and nothing in the new rules changed that. In terms of list building there isn't to much complexity to it so there isn't much point discussing it. Take the Big G, a Gorefist with as many GG's as you can fit and you're done.

As a result a lot of the discussion has focused around the other two basis because there is a lot of options and choice for them. Bloodtoofs+Cogs is the discussion around where the Ironfist should go in the new rules/meta, an Ironfist was always about giving us the extra mobility and Cogs/Bloodtoofs do exactly that. However they also cost a ton of points, 360 for both battalions and the spell is only 80 points shy of a second Maw-Krusha! So there is a lot of discussion and theory-crafting to be had around this topic.

Lastly is the weirdfist, which is probably changed the most with the new edition, has gone from a niche "how hard can I make Gorks Foot Stomp" to a legitimate third option. A balewind vortex is much cheaper, the weirdnob has much better protection from ranged snipes and there is the raft of endless spells. Combine that with the increase to the Ironfists points and is a legitimate alternative. (see the spoiler for an example)

Spoiler

7 hours ago, sporadicMike said:

King Slayer

 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak 
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
- Allies
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Waaaaggh Banner
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Units
20 x Orruks (160)
- Choppas & Shields
- Allies

Battalions
Ironfist (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 380 / 400
Wounds: 146

This is a great example of how a weirdfist is now an alternative. A weirdnob+balewind is 160 points, the same price as 20 Orruks. 

So drop the first Megaboss and the Orruks, add in a Weirdnob+Balewind. This leaves you with 140 points float for either 3 more GG's or some endless spells, plus the extra artefact to increase the Weirdnobs survivability.

 

So the end result is that the discussion has very much focused around the Ironfist vs Weirdfist variations because that's where the new choices and options are. It's not because the Gordrakkfist isn't strong, it's just not changed.

[broche]

I think a list withouth bataillion might be worth trying too. You just use Cog for extra move. Maybe with an extra weirnob and some other endless spell (geminid, the one that heal ect.) would give you some extra bodies  / characters

 

[DerZauberer]

11 minutes ago, broche said:

I think a list withouth bataillion might be worth trying too. You just use Cog for extra move. Maybe with an extra weirnob and some other endless spell (geminid, the one that heal ect.) would give you some extra bodies  / characters

 

I'm considering this myself. 

I had some games last weekend and never opted out to make effective use of multiple Waaagh!'s, as my opponents were aware of it's potential and used effective screenings to make me think "meh, no Waaagh! then". And while I love Bloodtoofs, I just think Ironfist is (and was) underwhelming.

I never thought about Ironfist being that good in AoS 1.0, as you pay a lot of points just for having "run and charge".  In addition, if the newer FAQ states that deploying first "only" means an "on equal dice you go first" (like several TO's tend to read it) it's even less value.  Ironfist is 180 points, Bloodtoofs another 120 points. That's a lot of points.

On the other hand, the new artefacts are great and the command points are still effective, either for run, charge reroll or battleshock tests. 

I'm really curious if GW will FAQ the First turn mechanic. If the battalions stay at the same point costs and you can't choose who got first turn after deploying first in the newer FAQ, I think it's better to go without battalions, although the artefacts are really strong.  If it stays the same, both options should be competitive, maybe even tending for battalions as command points and the new artefacts are always good. 

[broche]

@DerZauberer At the moment RAW it's pretty clear that the first to deploy get to choose (i think it's in the FAQ)

My thinking is more, ironfist cost 180 and give 3.5 average move to 3-5 units. Cog cost 60 and give +4 to all your army (but to your opponent also but
also offer you the option to cast 2 spell). A command point cost 50 if you really want one. Extra artefact, well it's sad but that life.

I feel that with IJ you either want to be really aggressive (and nothing beat Gorefist if that's your plan as you can reach almost anywhere turn 1)
or defensive (play lots of body and try to control the board). In the end, Ironfist just fall in the middle and at the same time not able to answer either of it.

 

[Malakree]

Personally I don't think it's worth dropping the Battalion. It grants us so much. For 180 points you cut your drops down drastically, get another artefact, a free command point and either the Ironfist or Weirdfist bonuses.

Considering that the command point alone is worth 50 points, I would never go without it.

[broche]

I'm not so sure. Let's take an example of a fairly standart ironfist list with mixed units:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Ironfist (180)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 128

so decent number of bodies, good threath range (but worse than deepkin, DoK or Tzeench) , and hard hitting.
Let take a slight variation: dropping the Ironfist for let say an extra warchanter and a Geminid (1940 pts total, so you keep 1 CP and bet 10 on the triumph)
what happen:

- I go up from 5 to 10 drops (so unlikely i get to choose first turn)
- I loose 3.5'' threath range on my core units, which at first might seem really bad
- I loose an artefact (sad, but i can live with that)

on the other hand I get:
-another warchanter (extra +1 to hit, extra body for waaagh ability and/or objective, extra 1/6 odds for a free move)
-the Geminid 

So let say i deployed (more drop so i can deploy better, inherent advantage of high drop), i finish last and my opponent let me go first. 
if i hit 2 freemove, i could put pressure by sending 3 gruntas and MK or i could just take objective, send a Geminid in his face and take objective. 
By round 2 we are likely to be in combat anyway. If he steal the turn then i can hit him again with Geminid to damage / debuff a unit.

That said, i think i would prefer to play a weirdfist by going -1 Megaboss, -1 Cog, -1 ironfist, + 1 Weirnob,  + 1 balewind + 1 Geminid
But would you would loose some hitting power and threath range. But to me it's not clear that option 2 is strictly worse than 1.

[Malakree]

31 minutes ago, broche said:

That said, i think i would prefer to play a weirdfist by going -1 Megaboss, -1 Cog, -1 ironfist, + 1 Weirnob,  + 1 balewind + 1 Geminid
But would you would loose some hitting power and threath range. But to me it's not clear that option 2 is strictly worse than 1.

This is actually my point. I think right now I think battalions are good enough for us that it's worth taking one, specifically because the choice isn't Ironfist or no Ironfist. It's Ironfist or no Ironfist or Weirdfist. 

Any situation where you don't take the Ironfist I would take a Weirdfist instead.

[Skabnoze]

There might be play in the Ardfist as well.  Sure, it is expensive and it hinges on a single medium hero.  But even footslogging Ironjawz can be surprisingly quick, especially with Cogs in the mix.  I would not rule out the idea of hurling a ton of Ardboyz across the table into the teeth of the enemy and then bringing them immediately back.

It might not be a top-dog list, but I would not discount it.  Ardboyz are pretty tough and fairly hard hitting.  An alpha-strike and immediate recycle might be pretty decent.  

[Jgroover]

I probably just need to play it myself to understand, but just looking at it, I can't understand how the Weirdfist could be any good. Could someone share how it has been successful for them? So much hinges on that foot of gork roll, which is still a hard cast at 8 with the bonuses and you have to keep 20 bodies within range of the shaman to even get that. The bonus range is nice but by turn 2 they could get dispellers in range too making it harder. What am I missing? 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Jgroover

[Skabnoze]

I don't have any books on me at the moment, but is there a realm item with a +1 to cast at all?  That seems like something that would exist.

[Soul oWar]

Haven't tested 2018 yet but have a small 3 games tourney this week-end I would like to attend. what list should I bring and what should I know about? (I'll have a crash course at the beginning of the tourney if I can'T get a game to play)

 

Available:

1 maw krusha
2 megaboos
2 warchanter
1 weirdnob
1 fungoid

20 brutes
30ardboy
6 gruntas

[broche]

2 hours ago, Jgroover said:

I probably just need to play it myself to understand, but just looking at it, I can't understand how the Weirdfist could be any good. Could someone share how it has been successful for them? So much hinges on that foot of gork roll, which is still a hard cast at 8 with the bonuses and you have to keep 20 bodies within range of the shaman to even get that. The bonus range is nice but by turn 2 they could get dispellers in range too making it harder. What am I missing? 

Dispelling a foot of gork is unlikely if it goes off (it's a 10)

I played a weirdfist list prior to AoS 2 and it was good enough (i would say low T1, but with at least 20% odds to win any matchup cause of foot of gork). Problem was it cost 200 pts, and your Shaman was vulnerable to sniping. 

Now you loose the +1 to cast from vortex, but you now have a vortex that allow double cast (wich basicly double the efficiency of weirdfist, cause you can cast a bolt for 3-4 mortal and still try your foot of gork, or puke even have decent range and can do lot of damage). Also the rule change for vortex (now count as single model) mean you don't have to play pythagore. But more importantly, Shaman now get a -1 to hit agains shoot, and can get +2 to save from vortex (if you cast it on a terrain feature). And you get bunch of item for extra protection (extra -1 to hit, mortal save, ect). You also get indirect protection in the sense that shooting if now nerfed. 

 

[Malakree]

12 minutes ago, broche said:

Dispelling a foot of gork is unlikely if it goes off (it's a 10)

I played a weirdfist list prior to AoS 2 and it was good enough (i would say low T1, but with at least 20% odds to win any matchup cause of foot of gork). Problem was it cost 200 pts, and your Shaman was vulnerable to sniping. 

Now you loose the +1 to cast from vortex, but you now have a vortex that allow double cast (wich basicly double the efficiency of weirdfist, cause you can cast a bolt for 3-4 mortal and still try your foot of gork, or puke even have decent range and can do lot of damage). Also the rule change for vortex (now count as single model) mean you don't have to play pythagore. But more importantly, Shaman now get a -1 to hit agains shoot, and can get +2 to save from vortex (if you cast it on a terrain feature). And you get bunch of item for extra protection (extra -1 to hit, mortal save, ect). You also get indirect protection in the sense that shooting if now nerfed. 

This.

The second spell cast is MASSIVE for us because we can double up on the weirdfist bonus now, the massive reduction in points cost for it is just the icing on the cake.

Just as importantly the endless spells in general mean that you can take 2/3 wizards and still make use of the extra spells. Sure if the weirdnob dies it's a loss but one of your other wizards can recast the Balewind then start using it.

The balewind vortext change was just so good for us and the weirdfist, the fact that it now costs the same as the ironfist (QQ) just makes it more competitive against it.

[Soul oWar]

Toying with this list, any mistake?

Allegiance: Ironjawz

LEADERS
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Megaboss (140) - Artefact : The Golden Toof
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440) - General - Command Trait : Hulking Muscle-bound Brute - Artefact : Daubing of Mork
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80) - Allies

UNITS
10 x Orruk Brutes (360) - 2 x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180) - 1 x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180) - 1 x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

BATTALIONS
Ironfist (180)