AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[BradReligion]

Good afternoon friends,

TheoryHammer got the best of me, and as I was ****** around with some army lists I came up with this at 2000 points.

- Gordrakk
- Megaboss on Mawkrusha
- Megaboss on Mawkrusha
- Warchanter

- Unit of 3 Gore Gruntas x 3

Basically taking the double Krusha list and turning it to 11 (or 3). It'll suck at objective games, but the 3 units of Gruntas at least have the speed (and maybe durability?)to do some late-game objective grabbing after, theoretically anyway, the 3 Krushas have been taking the brunt of the enemy's attention. Theoretically... All in all I'll happily concede this is a dumb list, but one that'll look amazing on the board, and may have enough punch on the charge (Gordrakk giving a 3D6 charge to a Krusha should help somewhat) to not be a complete pushover.

Alternatives to this list while still following the theme are switching Gordrakk to a generic MBoMK, dropping the Chanter and taking the Ironfist batallion. 

So, thoughts?

 

 

 

[Sangfroid]

Just as a heads up, I noticed on the warscroll that the Mighty Waaagh and Waaagh command abilities only say “at the start of the combat phase” I.e does not say WHICH combat phase you can use it. Therefore was discussed on the Ironjawz WhatsApp last night @Ben Johnson     is the admin if you want to contact him to get in, and one of the guys (Simon not sure if he is on here) sent an email for clarity from the FAQ team. 

It does seem a strong case which if agreed it’s BOTH combat phases opens up some new tactics for us megabosses and also a nice boon  for Ironjawz such as screening with ardboyz allowing are selfs to be charge then having brutes Waaagh enhanced attacking over the top with 2” weapons (and many more I’m sure we can all come up with ? 

[Imperial]

24 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:

Just as a heads up, I noticed on the warscroll that the Mighty Waaagh and Waaagh command abilities only say “at the start of the combat phase” I.e does not say WHICH combat phase you can use it. Therefore was discussed on the Ironjawz WhatsApp last night @Ben Johnson     is the admin if you want to contact him to get in, and one of the guys (Simon not sure if he is on here) sent an email for clarity from the FAQ team. 

 It does seem a strong case which if agreed it’s BOTH combat phases opens up some new tactics for us megabosses and also a nice boon  for Ironjawz such as screening with ardboyz allowing are selfs to be charge then having brutes Waaagh enhanced attacking over the top with 2” weapons (and many more I’m sure we can all come up with ? 

If Megaboss uses this command ability = using in hero phase! So no! You cant use it in combat phase! We have old battletome for OLD version of core rules. 

[Sangfroid]

2 hours ago, Imperial said:

If Megaboss uses this command ability = using in hero phase! So no! You cant use it in combat phase! We have old battletome for OLD version of core rules. 

1) The core rules say use in the hero phase unless it says which phase to use it

2) mighty waaagh and waaagh say count up the units in the combat phase of the turn (I.e. either turn....)

 the waaagh wording hasn’t changed from aos1 but the way command abilities now work has so because it says when to count up units (i.e. combat phase) it would appear to make sense that you use it in the combat phase not the hero phase. This is because command abilities are more reactionary now BUT cost a resource (use inspiring in the battleshock phase, lord arcanum on graph charger can use his in hero, combat or shooting phase. Etc...)

it is not 100% clear (but does clearly say combat phase) It seems more than likely to point toward using in the combat phase but the Intention may not be so,Simon has emailed the FAQ team to get this cleared up definitively otherwise could be argued a bit either way which is a waste of good time when more dice can be rolled and heads krumped ?

Edited July 10, 2018 by Sangfroid

[Imperial]

1 minute ago, Sangfroid said:

1) The core rules say use in the hero phase unless it says which phase to use it

2) mighty waaagh and waaagh say count up the units in the combat phase of the turn (I.e. either turn....)

 the waaagh wording hasn’t changed from aos1 but the way command abilities now work has so because it says when to count up units (i.e. combat phase) it would appear to make sense that you use it in the combat phase not the hero phase. This is because command abilities are more reactionary now BUT cost a resource (use inspiring in the battleshock phase, lord arcanum on graph charger can use his in hero, combat or shooting phase. Etc...)

it is not 100% clear (but does clearly say combat phase) It seems more than likely to point toward using in the combat phase but the Intention may not be so,Simon has emailed the FAQ team to get this cleared up definitively otherwise could be argued a bit either way which is a waste of good time when more dice can be rolled and heads krumped ?

You got this wrong! You dont use WAAAGH at start of combat phase! You count up units at start of combat phase! They didnot change WAAAGH, so it's works like before:

Hero phase:

Declare what Megaboss uses WAAAGH

Start of Combat phase:

Count up units, roll dice 

Combat phase:

Get bonus of WAAAGH

Q: Many command abilities on older warscrolls don’t specify in which phase they are used. When can I use such command abilities?

A: Command abilities that don’t specify when they are used are always used in your hero phase.

[Sangfroid]

@Imperial

this is why the faq team has been emailed, in aos1 the only time you could use command abilities was the hero phase so this feels correct however it says count up the units in the combat phase of the turn (doesn’t say your turn or the player turn etc...) it’s specifically says combat phase so going back to the new core rules I think (as do some others) that this therefore means it can be used in any combat phase. 

Am I right? Am I wrong? Not sure because the wording isn’t clear in the positive like it is with the lord arcanum but it also isn’t clear in the negative either I.e a clear wording would be “use this ability in your hero phase then count up the units in the following combat phase....” 

the faq team will look at it and hopefully when they do the errata/faq over the next week or so it will be clarified (hopefully so that we can use in any combat phase as this will give IJ more tactical depth and also a boon in power... we need it.)

[Imperial]

2 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:

@Imperial

this is why the faq team has been emailed, in aos1 the only time you could use command abilities was the hero phase so this feels correct however it says count up the units in the combat phase of the turn (doesn’t say your turn or the player turn etc...) it’s specifically says combat phase so going back to the new core rules I think (as do some others) that this therefore means it can be used in any combat phase. 

Am I right? Am I wrong? Not sure because the wording isn’t clear in the positive like it is with the lord arcanum but it also isn’t clear in the negative either I.e a clear wording would be “use this ability in your hero phase then count up the units in the following combat phase....” 

the faq team will look at it and hopefully when they do the errata/faq over the next week or so it will be clarified (hopefully so that we can use in any combat phase as this will give IJ more tactical depth and also a boon in power... we need it.)

I realy dont think what we will see FAQ about it, because we allready got info in core book FAQ about CA in old battletomes. I think closest hope for change something: warhammer legends orcs release and moonclan release... They dont even make FAQ about grot warboss ability before release, so chanse is TOO low...

[tolstedt]

13 hours ago, Malakree said:

Personally if I had to pick a damage spell it would be the aethervoid pendulum because pick a direction and it only moves along that line. Means you get a lot of control over how bad it can ****** you if it's fired back.

Cant' it move back and forth?  It's a pendulum.

[tolstedt]

5 hours ago, BradReligion said:

Good afternoon friends,

TheoryHammer got the best of me, and as I was ****** around with some army lists I came up with this at 2000 points.

- Gordrakk
- Megaboss on Mawkrusha
- Megaboss on Mawkrusha
- Warchanter

- Unit of 3 Gore Gruntas x 3

Basically taking the double Krusha list and turning it to 11 (or 3). It'll suck at objective games, but the 3 units of Gruntas at least have the speed (and maybe durability?)to do some late-game objective grabbing after, theoretically anyway, the 3 Krushas have been taking the brunt of the enemy's attention. Theoretically... All in all I'll happily concede this is a dumb list, but one that'll look amazing on the board, and may have enough punch on the charge (Gordrakk giving a 3D6 charge to a Krusha should help somewhat) to not be a complete pushover.

Alternatives to this list while still following the theme are switching Gordrakk to a generic MBoMK, dropping the Chanter and taking the Ironfist batallion. 

So, thoughts?

  

 

 

I played against a triple maw krusha list.  You're always going to lose on bodies.

Keep everything together.

This is how I would do it.

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Units
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
 

[broche]

7 hours ago, Malakree said:

So my thing is it says cast by an enemy wizard.

With an endless spell the "cast" portion is setting up the spell model. In abilities it states "If successfully cast, setup...."

That was my interpretation as well. Also in endless spell rule that state that Endless spell are treated as friendly model by all armies, and cannot be affected by spell and abilities.  The cast is like a summon, but the damage trigger is the spell move and neutral.

However, it's still a "spell" cast by an "ennemy wizard" in the end. Might worth a small FAQ I guess.

Next question  ; Did the FAQ the Umbral spell portal infinite loop?

[Rock Lobster]

Got another game in with my list preparing for capital city bloodbath against one of the Canhammer team.

I made a change to the list, downgrading my wierdnob to a fungoid cave shaman in exchange for bumping up my ardboyz to brutes. More hitting power, 2 drops

Megaboss on maw krusha (-1 rend warlord trait, 5+ mortal wound save artefact - Hyush)

Warchanter (reduce mortal wounds by d3 from spells artifact, Hyush)

Fungoid cave shaman (5+ to recover command points) + cogs

10 brutes

5 brutes

5 brutes

5 brutes

3 gore gruntas

Played against a fairly middle of the road stormcast list - they hadn't updated their army for new AOS goodies. Can't remember everything in there but you will see from the photos, big unit of the mace guys, lots of shooting, some deepstriking liberators and a celestant prime. We played long ways for 3 central objectives.

I deployed first and gave opponent first turn, they put down the deep striking unit to stop my destruction moves from my boss and everything stayed out of charge range (or so they thought) at 26". Claimed a couple of objectives with the flying guys and the deepstrikers - not a lot else.

My turn I went for cogs, 3 waaghs and advanced forward, killing the 2 units in the center to claim all 3 objectives and got lucky for random movement and a great 11" charge roll which put my 10 brutes into his 9 mace guys with +3 attacks covering 26" of table. That is where the luck ended though, he made armour saves like a god, I only killed 4 and lost 3 in return.

He won the roll and advanced forward (perhaps unwisely so with the shooting units), killed my 10 man brutes in combat with his general and maces, shot off a 5 man brute unit and killed a grunta in combat. It was not looking good.

Fortunately my Hyush recover command trait artifact was golden, I was able to deliver a stunning +3 attacks this turn thanks to regenerating command points taking my total to 6 used when I would have only had 4 without, and I was able to deliver some real hits this turn. Another 5 man brute unit totalled the mace guys with my mawkrushas destructive bulk after crazy movement shenanigans which are now the IJ trademark, and smashing and bashing kicked into effect, allowing my to wipe out those guys, his boss, an archer unit and the last flying unit before he even struck. I got the double turn and wiped out all remaining units on the board without taking any attacks back - the celestant prime came down to find he was alone and did some wounds and took some in return. We called the game at the start of my turn 4 with a celestant prime with 2 wounds ready to be charged by the IJ army.

Total Ironjawz victory.

Take aways:

- Hyush is the way to go - if you do not have the 5+ to recover CP with Ironjawz you are doing it wrong

- 5 man brute units kick ass if they are buffed with a few Waaagh, they are every bit worth the extra cost over gruntas and ardboyz

- cogs is also a must, the number of charges i would have failed without them (and bloodtoofs is uneal)

I am concerned for the tournament though of 2 risks with my list and want your views on a potential change:

1. Waaagh is so important, but at the moment if I lose my megaboss on Maw krusha I a pretty screwed and the CP are comparatively worthless

2. I lack strong heroes for the scenarios where heroes are needed to control objectives

I think I can add some redundancy for 1 and address 2 without losing too much hitting power by dropping the 10 brutes to a 5, adding a megaboss on foot and upgrading the gruntas to another brute unit. 5 units of 5 brutes is fearsome, and should the worse happen and I lose the cabbage, the Megaboss can allow me to waagh still, inferior but better than nothing. I think the megaboss plus upgrading the gruntas to brutes balances out the hitting power of the 5 extra brutes in one units. What do you guys think?

 

[DerZauberer]

@Rock Lobster Interesting write up, thanks bud!

First a small question: Are you allowed to have more then one realm-specific artefact? I've heard people saying you can only replace one artefact with a realm-specific one.

But anyway: Hysh provides us with a lot of magic protection, which is great as we just can't compete with the most potent spellcaster armies out there without sacrificing all needed punch. The command point artefact is nice, but in theory, you will "only" generate 1-2 CP.  For me as a non-competitive player, it's by far the most boring realm of artefacts, as they are very defensive and unfluffy for Ironjawz (imo).
But I think for competitive tournament play Hysh (where you have to expect more than half lists with e.g. Kroak or other spell-heavy lists)  it's definitely the way to go as you've said.

I personally would get the mega boss on foot. I think 10 man brute units are overkill with such a heavy focus on Waaagh! and although you protect yourself heavily for spell damage, your MK could still fall to shooting and your whole army plan would be gone. A second Megaboss with all your shielding should guarantee you to get at least one Megaboss into turn 2 with multiple Waaagh!'s. In addition, the re-roll aura is great on brutes. And for the extra points, you could squeeze in maybe another CP or at least another endless spell.  

[tom_gore]

A tourney coming up. 1500 points Battlehost game (400 points in allies). The list I've been thinking about is:

Megaboss on foot (ironclad, destroyer)

Warchanter (golden toof)

Weirdnob Shaman

10 Ardboys

10 Ardboys

5 Brutes

5 Gore-Gruntas

Grot Spear Chukka

Grot Spear Chukka

Ironfist Battalion

Balewind Vortex

Chronomantic Cogs

exactly 1500 points

As far as models go, I've still got another 10 Ardboys and 5 Brutes which aren't even built yet, and I'm aiming for a fully painted army. I might be able to finish either of them, but not both.

I see the biggest problem in this list being quite a lot of points invested in that one Shaman, making it risky if he should fall. My plan is to protect him by killing all that threaten him from range with his spells and the chukkas, and then the rest of the army will keep anything from getting to him in melee. Doable against light shooting/casting armies but definitely a lost cause against heavy shooters/casters. Against these kind of armies I plan to LOS him behind a solid obstacle if possible and just forget about Balewind.

Realm artifacts/spells are not used in this tourney.

Thoughts?

 

[ShaneHobbes]

4 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

Got another game in with my list preparing for capital city bloodbath against one of the Canhammer team.

I made a change to the list, downgrading my wierdnob to a fungoid cave shaman in exchange for bumping up my ardboyz to brutes. More hitting power, 2 drops

Megaboss on maw krusha (-1 rend warlord trait, 5+ mortal wound save artefact - Hyush)

Warchanter (reduce mortal wounds by d3 from spells artifact, Hyush)

Fungoid cave shaman (5+ to recover command points) + cogs

10 brutes

5 brutes

5 brutes

5 brutes

3 gore gruntas

......

Sorry if this is painfully obvious somewhere but I've had people tell me otherwise; how do you get a fungoid cave shaman with an artifact while keeping Ironjawz allegiance? 

[arinnoor]

Being an ally doesn't prevent him from getting an artifact, he just can't have an ironjawz one.

[tom_gore]

I could also go to this tournament with a super-straightforward triple-waaagh list:

Megaboss on foot (ironclad, destroyer)

Warchanter (golden toof)

Orruk Warboss on Wyvern

Orruk Warboss with Great Waaagh Banner

10 Ardboys

10 Ardboys

5 Brutes

3 Gore-Gruntas

4 Ironskull's Boyz

Ironfist Battalion

Triple-waagh on round 2 should do the trick, eh?

 

[Izikail]

I have amended my list as suggested

2k weirdfist list

MBMK 440

Weirdnob 120

Fungoid/moonclan grot shaman (still debating) 80

 

3 grunters 140

5 brutes 180

5 brutes 180

10 ardboys (50/50 sheild and 2 handed wepon) 160

10 ardboys (50/50 sheild and 2 handed wepon) 160

Lobber 100

Lobber 100

Balewind vortex 40

Cogs 60

Mirror 60

Weirdfist Battalion 180

 

Few things. Game plan remains ov holding back turn one and being more agressive turn two and later

I thought (although i dont have my melign sorcery yet) that it was one endless per turn, in witch case ill cut an endless but if its one per wizzard then ill keep them

Would like a palicade in there but cant fit it

If you can do one spell per wizard the debate is do i spend one turn moving my Wizards up and delay my setup or do i plant there feet first turn

May also swap MBMK for a normal megaboss. A unit of ardboys (and move the grunta unit out of the battalion) and a second unit of gruntas

Also not decided on relm yet although probably shadow. 

Thoughts?

Edited July 11, 2018 by Izikail

[Davros]

5 hours ago, DerZauberer said:

First a small question: Are you allowed to have more then one realm-specific artefact? I've heard people saying you can only replace one artefact with a realm-specific one.

You can replace as many as you like (pg.79 malign sorc), only thing that would stop it is specific tournement rules that you can only have 1.

 

Normally you can give allies items of power (no rules against it just a hero in your army), but the cave sham's badly written FAQ means it is heavily up for debate.

"Lord-Ordinators, Darkoath Warqueens, Knights of 
Shrouds and Fungoid Cave-Shamans can be given a 
command trait or artefact of power if they share the 
keyword of that army’s allegiance."

This is silly for artifacts because allies can normally take them, but makes sense for the command traits because they are alowed to be the general without being of the same alleigence. I say baddly written because it should either have the word only in there, or say you can't do it.

 

Edit: Endless spells are one attempt of any endless spell per wizard per turn

Edited July 11, 2018 by Davros

[Rock Lobster]

10 hours ago, DerZauberer said:

@Rock Lobster Interesting write up, thanks bud!

First a small question: Are you allowed to have more then one realm-specific artefact? I've heard people saying you can only replace one artefact with a realm-specific one.

But anyway: Hysh provides us with a lot of magic protection, which is great as we just can't compete with the most potent spellcaster armies out there without sacrificing all needed punch. The command point artefact is nice, but in theory, you will "only" generate 1-2 CP.  For me as a non-competitive player, it's by far the most boring realm of artefacts, as they are very defensive and unfluffy for Ironjawz (imo).
But I think for competitive tournament play Hysh (where you have to expect more than half lists with e.g. Kroak or other spell-heavy lists)  it's definitely the way to go as you've said.

I personally would get the mega boss on foot. I think 10 man brute units are overkill with such a heavy focus on Waaagh! and although you protect yourself heavily for spell damage, your MK could still fall to shooting and your whole army plan would be gone. A second Megaboss with all your shielding should guarantee you to get at least one Megaboss into turn 2 with multiple Waaagh!'s. In addition, the re-roll aura is great on brutes. And for the extra points, you could squeeze in maybe another CP or at least another endless spell.  

For me with my colour scheme being as bright as it is the light realm works for me rather than shadow or death.

hanging around in the realm of beasts is all well and good, but my boyz are about offence and invasion.

while I think uglu have much more fun items and I will use them for a game, for a 5 game tournament it won’t be much fun in the games when mortal wounds and magic removes my playmakers turn 1 and I crash out by turn 2.

the 5+ for command roll regeneration may seem boring and defensive but it is really the oppsite. It is a very offensive ability that can grant your army the ability to get multiple extra attacks, run further, guarantee charges or save a key unit from battleshock. Super flexible and able to give much more than 1 unit killing power and it is really flexible. 

It allows me to always keep a command point in the bank for a key play like saving a unit from dying or making a critical charge.

then again, a mega boss with the -3 rend blade, and warchanter toting the d6 mortal wound sword is undoubtedly hilarious.

 

[Rock Lobster]

5 hours ago, Davros said:

You can replace as many as you like (pg.79 malign sorc), only thing that would stop it is specific tournement rules that you can only have 1.

 

Normally you can give allies items of power (no rules against it just a hero in your army), but the cave sham's badly written FAQ means it is heavily up for debate.

"Lord-Ordinators, Darkoath Warqueens, Knights of 
Shrouds and Fungoid Cave-Shamans can be given a 
command trait or artefact of power if they share the 
keyword of that army’s allegiance."

This is silly for artifacts because allies can normally take them, but makes sense for the command traits because they are alowed to be the general without being of the same alleigence. I say baddly written because it should either have the word only in there, or say you can't do it.

 

Edit: Endless spells are one attempt of any endless spell per wizard per turn

Seems like a reason to include the extra mega boss, if I have 3 ironjawz characters there is no question come the tournament. 

[Skabnoze]

5 hours ago, Davros said:

Normally you can give allies items of power (no rules against it just a hero in your army), but the cave sham's badly written FAQ means it is heavily up for debate.

"Lord-Ordinators, Darkoath Warqueens, Knights of 
Shrouds and Fungoid Cave-Shamans can be given a 
command trait or artefact of power if they share the 
keyword of that army’s allegiance."

This is silly for artifacts because allies can normally take them, but makes sense for the command traits because they are alowed to be the general without being of the same alleigence. I say baddly written because it should either have the word only in there, or say you can't do it.

Hopefully they rewrite that character in a Moonclan battletome soon.  The Knight of Shrouds Herald was rewritten when the Nighthaunt book came out I think.  They should remove the requirement to be the general from the Fungoid Shaman command ability as it is simply not necessary.

I think that FAQ is a bad hold-over from 1st edition and was put in place so that they could add a new model to each grand alliance in the Malign Portents book and allow every allegiance army to still use those characters.  They need to figure out a cleaner way to do that next time.

[Backbreaker]

10 hours ago, tom_gore said:

I could also go to this tournament with a super-straightforward triple-waaagh list:

Megaboss on foot (ironclad, destroyer)

...

Triple-waagh on round 2 should do the trick, eh?

 

I like that way of thinking, forget about magic and shooting, more choppa in da' face !

[broche]

@Rock Lobster love your write up, quite interesting. I think your Idea of going Megaboss for duplicate waaghhh is a good one. at 140 he is super cheap, and hit hard as well. He can easily take cover for a 2+ save, and -1 to hit from look out sir make him hard to snipe.

i guess your list is fairly standart, but the 5+ get a CP back is a nice tweak. 

[Backbreaker]

What do you guys think about Orukk Warboss with Waaagh Banner ?

Reroll to wound that we don't have otherwise.

An other hero for objectives.

An other way to have more attacks.

Fast.

 

 

[broche]

1 hour ago, Backbreaker said:

What do you guys think about Orukk Warboss with Waaagh Banner ?

Reroll to wound that we don't have otherwise.

An other hero for objectives.

An other way to have more attacks.

Fast.

 

 

He is good for sure, but i find it hard to fit it in my List so far. Maybe if you go no-bataillion