AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[tolstedt]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

You would be averaging 18" +2d6 with d3+2 mortal wounds from the weirdfist

It is 24" plus 2d6 average range and d3+3 average wounds if you have the full weirdfist and balewind

[Malakree]

37 minutes ago, tolstedt said:

It is 24" plus 2d6 average range and d3+3 average wounds if you have the full weirdfist and balewind

You get 5 rolls, on average you would expect 2.5 of each. Easier to round down and assume the 5th roll is a bonus than round up assuming both get the 5th roll.

[Izikail]

I would have to drop one or two warchanters to fit in the extra endless spells this lowers my nuke ability for the MBMK as he would no longer be doing d6 mw on 4+ it would be back to 6. I am still open to this.

My concern with loading up on endless spells is you can only cast one a turn. If i do cogs turn one i then need to stay near it meaning i cant advance with my foot soldiers for the turn two balewind as i need to stay near it. Similer issue with the portal i wouldnt have it till turn 3 and if im far away casting through it i would most likely no longer be in tange for my ubit buffs as they advanced to meet the enemy and take ovjectives

Hypatheticaly i could remove both warchanters and get the portal, cogs and a grot caster. I could even double down and remove the MBMK for a foot boss or even a banner warboss to buy me an extra 300 for a second grunta squad and move the first grunta squad out the betalion and put anther 10 ardboys in to keep my casting buff on as they wont run of and add mor orks

[Richelieu]

22 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Im hearing Kroak can fire off his spells 3 times a turn now due to core rules. Or insta slap down blastidons

He can summon a bastiladon in the move phase of turn two.  He can generate 13 summon points per hero phase and bastis cost 24.

[tolstedt]

45 minutes ago, Malakree said:

You get 5 rolls, on average you would expect 2.5 of each. Easier to round down and assume the 5th roll is a bonus than round up assuming both get the 5th roll.

You get 6 rolls for the weirdfist.

[Superninja]

yeah the shaman would count toward it as he is a unit in the battalion.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Superninja

[Malakree]

Yep just read the rules, yet another example of where GW clearly meant something but 3 years and a bunch of FAQ's down the line it's now something totally different.

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

I played in a casual tournament this weekend that was aimed to get us familiar with the new system. We played 2k points with each army declaring which realm they were from and were allowed to take an item. The three games saw realm rules and realm magic used based on where you fought. We had nine players compete, and surprisingly, there were no stormcast or death players. Instead, we had 3 Ironjawz, 2 Seraphon, Freeguild, Daughters of Khaine, and Khorne

My list included:

LEADERS Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440) - General - Command Trait : Brutish Cunning - Artefact : Gryph-feather Charm
Orruk Warchanter (80) - Artefact : The Golden Toof Orruk
Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Warboss (140) - Boss Choppas - Allies
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80) - Allies

UNITS
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180) - 1 x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180) - 1 x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

BATTALIONS Ironfist (180)
TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA
COMMAND POINTS: 1
WOUNDS: 136

With no endless spells, I brought a balanced list aimed at punching my opponent early. I was eager to try the double WAAAGH! combo when I could, as well as the Orruk Warboss with banner. I can attest that he came in handy quite often. Also forgive me, but I forgot the names of two of the three scenarios.

Round 1 vs Ironjawz 

This scenario was the diagonal setup where only heroes with items or wizard can claim one of three objectives. Our game took place in the realm of Ghyran and we rolled the rule that gives a hero an extra wound, so we put it on our generals. My opponent, Joe, took Gordrakk, 2xWarchatners, Megaboss on foot, Wierdnob, 2x5 Brutes, 2x10 Ardboyz, 3xGoreGruntas and Ironfist. We knew our generals were destined to combat each other to prove who was the better boss, but I planned to focus my attention on the left and center objectives. Meanwhile, I was going to send one of my Gore Grutnas to the weak side on the right and focus on killing his heroes who could score. Right away, I realized how awesome the new Rampaging Destroyers is. My MBMK got his roll and I recognized I could have charged him straight at Gordrakk on turn one. However, the thought of whiffing or failing to kill him would have left my general isolated and likely dead, so I chose the more cunning route and prepared my troops in case my opponent received the double turn. On Joe's first turn, he got some good rolls for his Brutes and wasted no time getting them into combat. On the left, the Brutes charged my Gore Gruntas along with his Megaboss who made an 11 inch charge. However, my Brutes were close enough and I piled in my Brute Boss and Gore Choppa Brute, who took down the Megabos. In the center, Gordrakk and the other Brutes charged my 20 Ardboyz, killing half the unit. The pesky boyz did work though and took down two Brutes. In the battleshock phase, I burned a command point to give them inspiring presence (this may have been played wrong but no one could answer that for us so we moved on). I won initiative for Turn 2 and immediately charged Gordrakk with my MBMK. Azkrug Fangfist proved he could best the Fist of Gork and send Gordrakk licking his wounds off the table. I used only Mighty Waaagh! because the Banner Boss was out of range, but his buff was not. Against Gordrakk, I rerolled two ones  To Wound and got four of my five attacks through to deal 12 wounds to Gordrakk to finish him off. On the right, my Gore Gruntas got behind his line and killed his Warchanter who had an item. Interesting to note, I used one of the Ghyran spells for my Moonclan Grot, the teleportation pool, which I sent the grot to the right objective to claim. The Ardboyz rallied and finished off the rest of the Brutes in the center. With his hard hitting units gone and his Wierdnob about to die on Turn 3, we called the match and I received full kill points. Fun game though from both our sides as we realized Ironjawz have their speed back and can threaten the enemy from afar once more. 
Result: Major Victory

Round 2 vs Daughters of Khaine

My second match ever against DoK and it was against the snake battalion once more. I played against Anthony's army in the final match of the 1.5k a few months ago and I barely won that last encounter. This time, I sort of knew what to expect, but now he was rocking Morathi, 3x10 Blood Sisters, 2x5 Blood Stalkers, 2xHag Queens (who were brilliantly converted onto snake bodies), a Medusa, and the Snake Battalion that deals out mortal wounds if you roll a one to hit against a snake. This scenario was a horizontal deployment with three vertical objectives. Each turn, the main objective that scored 3 points would change from either the top, center, or bottom. This game was played in the Realm of Ghur. We rolled on the chart, but no realm rules were in effect this game. The magic of Ghur, however, was more beneficial to  Anthony because DoK have solid spells and abilities that work with low bravery armies, and one or two spells on the Ghur list affect bravery. Magic-wise, Morathi and his army did not accomplish too much, some of it due to my two casters dispelling, or because it did not have a big impact on the game. Like my first match, this one came down to who could get the turn 2 charge off. Wisely, he went first and secured all the objectives to jump ahead 5-0. Unfortunately, I did not get good enough rolls to make many potential first turn charges. However, I was able to get MBMK into his 10 Blood Sisters on the left with some aid from my Gore Gruntas. What was looking like a powerful blow against my enemy turned into a sour moment. Anthony buffed his Blood Sisters with prayers so they could reroll their 6+ ward saves and made them immune to battleshock. After Destructive Bulk and the Megaboss killed three snakes, my Maw Krusha dealt 9 wounds, which would have taken 5 off. However, on his first ward save roll, Anthony got four 6's!! Then on the second, he got three more!, so he only lost one after making 7 of 9 saves. Almost as bad, I made a lot of one rolls with my Gore Gruntas and lost two of them along with the counterattack he made. Then turn 2 came and he won the roll off. The game was practically over as his two other 10-Blood Sisters ran over my Brutes and took out half my Ardboyz. I did manage to stage a minor comeback as the double Waaagh! kicked in and I erased one of the other Blood Sisters Units and scored some points to catch up, but by then, much of my force was diminished bc of the mortal wounds from rolling ones. Morathi then entered the game on turn 3 and he proceeded to table me. This is a pesky list that Anthony has learned how to use well. Next time my boyz owe his snakes some retribution!
Result: Major Loss

Round 3 vs Ironjawz

Final round saw another mirror match, this time against my pal Jason from the store. Like me, he used an Ironfist, but took no MBMK. Instead, he had a Megaboss on Foot as general with Golden Tooth, Wierdnob and Moonclan Grot, Warchanter, 2x20 Ardboyz, 2x5 Brutes and 3xGore Gruntas.  The final scenario was Total Commitment with objectives in the four corners of the map. We played in Chamon and used the realm rule, Metal Rain, which, on a 6+ at the start of your hero phase, could trigger mortal wounds on every model in the unit on a 6+. That was used only once by me, but I cast it from the lore of Chamon. As for the match, I lost it in my deployment. I should had finished setting up first, but I didn't realize I set up my Gore Gruntas instead of the whole battalion. I also placed my Grot on the front lines in harms way. My plan was to lock down the left and sweep to the right to claim it. Instead, my plan got flipped on me. Jason went first, got some good rolls with Rampaging Destroyer and Ironfist, and sent practically his entire army at me on his first turn. It was a crippling attack because his Brutes attacked first, buffed by his Megaboss' WAAAGH!, and he proceeded to kill my Ironfist's Brute Boss' Unit. Then he killed my Moonclan Grot and took the right objective from me with his Ardboyz and Gore Gruntas. Now my left objective held the entire game with my 20xArdboyz grinding down his 20xArdboyz, but the right was lost to me. Worse, with my Ironfist gone, I never got my boyz across the table fast enough to claim his. However, my Maw Krusha did have a field day and ran over everything it came across. Early on I tried to combo Destructive Bulk charges to steal one of his objectives, but I failed to wound anything all game with my shout, so I proceeded to run him at everything for fun. By turn 2 I knew it was unlikely I would win, but we played it out and I killed most of his army to snag some more kill points.We laughed throughout the match and Waaagh! a lot realizing our boyz might be looking pretty good in AOS 2.0.
Result: Major Loss

Overall I finished 1-2, but had the second highest amount of kill points behind Anthony's DoK. He finished first, followed by Jason's Ironjawz and in third, my mate Jessie who plays Seraphon at my club. It was a good learning experience and reinvigorated my interest in Ironjawz. We now have many options going forward with magic, battalions, and items that can boost our army. I'm already looking to give my Megaboss on Foot the Gryph-Feather and Ironclad or Brutish Cunning and Boss Skewer to really mess with my enemies. I love  10-Brute squads but I feel 5 Brutes are the way to go. Also, 20 Ardboyz is the optimal number now imo. Small enough to stay wholly within our bubbles, but tough enough to grind down our foes. I cannot stress enough how useful the Orruk Warboss with Banner is. Re-Rolling 1's to wound and granting flat +1 attack to all weapons is amazing. I will likely bounce between him and Megaboss depending on how I construct my lists. We have our speed back and Ironfist, despite the price rise, is worth taking. I may even give the Bloodtoof a run at some point, but I need to get a realmgate. Can't wait to try all the new magic lores as well. Plenty of options to choose from.

[Izikail]

I still see morathi as a major counter to the alpha strike/consecutive combat style of destruction that we dont reqoy have an answer to. Sure there is the whole just ignore her. But she wont be ignoring you

[broche]

Ok just had my malign sorcery yesterday. Is it just me or the Geminid of Uhl-Hysh completly make all other attack endless spell completly worthless?

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, broche said:

Ok just had my malign sorcery yesterday. Is it just me or the Geminid of Uhl-Hysh completly make all other attack endless spell completly worthless?

In what way? Each of them is unique in what it does.

For example, is the burning head an "attack" spell despite its RR1's aura?

[PlasticCraic]

It's amazing, and very cheap at 40 points.  If I had to pick just one spell to use all edition, it would be that one.

But many of the others are far from useless.

[Ravinsild]

11 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

It's amazing, and very cheap at 40 points.  If I had to pick just one spell to use all edition, it would be that one.

But many of the others are far from useless.

Which one? The burning head or the Geminids? 

[Malakree]

Personally if I had to pick a damage spell it would be the aethervoid pendulum because pick a direction and it only moves along that line. Means you get a lot of control over how bad it can ****** you if it's fired back.

[PlasticCraic]

12 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Which one? The burning head or the Geminids? 

The Geminids for several reasons:

- 18" deploy range is completely out of whack with everything else

- Not only can you hit them turn 1, you can deploy it too far forward to be moved back across you

- 2x D3 damage is up there as one of the most damaging Endless Spells

- The debuffs are both amazing: Ravenak only gets half of that for the same points

Burning Head is excellent too, and is a legit choice in some armies, but for the reasons above I'd be going Geminids without a doubt if I could only pick one forever.

@Malakree I do like the Pendulum too, I'm planning on using both with my Kopp Rukk.

[broche]

@PlasticCraic exactly my point. If you have one spell to pick for 40 pts it's just strictly better than the others attack spells. Better range, 2d3 mortal and TWO debuff!

The only drawback is that you need to go across the unit (other spell will often affect a 1'' bubble in addition).

[Skabnoze]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

Personally if I had to pick a damage spell it would be the aethervoid pendulum because pick a direction and it only moves along that line. Means you get a lot of control over how bad it can ****** you if it's fired back.

It still surprises me that it cannot go both forward and backwards because it is a...

 

Spoiler

wait for it...

 

Spoiler

Pendulum!

 

[Skabnoze]

I am rather partial to the Quicksilver Swords simply because the thing is dirt cheap.  It should average some ok damage and if you roll well it can spike high.  But for that cost it is really easy to slide into a lot of lists.  I have half a mind to convert one up from a bunch of extra left over choppas or stabbas.

[Malakree]

So I read the pendulum and the way I interpret it is you set it up with the length ways along a line. It then moves forward and backwards down that line.

So it can go back but both you and your opponent know where it could possibly go.

Means that how you originally place it is hugely important. Plus d6 mortals is vicious.

[broche]

100$ questions: do you think lens of refraction affect endless spell damage?

[Malakree]

16 minutes ago, broche said:

100$ questions: do you think lens of refraction affect endless spell damage?

No. 

[PlasticCraic]

Interesting...I had assumed it would, because the Endless Spell was cast by a Wizard?  But maybe they are going down the path that Spells and Endless Spells are as distinct as Wounds and Mortal Wounds.

Probably worth emailing the FAQ team @broche?

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, PlasticCraic said:

Interesting...I had assumed it would, because the Endless Spell was cast by a Wizard?  But maybe they are going down the path that Spells and Endless Spells are as distinct as Wounds and Mortal Wounds.

Probably worth emailing the FAQ team @broche?

So my thing is it says cast by an enemy wizard.

With an endless spell the "cast" portion is setting up the spell model. In abilities it states "If successfully cast, setup...."

This implies that the wizard is only involved in getting the model on the board. The damage on the other hand is done by the model itself independent of the wizard. As an example consider the following situations for the D3 damage from Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws (as an example). Which of the following would the lens of refraction reduce.

1. You move a predatory spell You cast and deal d3 to your own unit. (You control, You cast)
2. An Enemy moves a predatory spell You cast and deals d3 to your unit. (Enemy control, You cast)
3. You move a predatory spell your Enemy cast and deal d3 to your own unit. (You control, Enemy cast)
4. An Enemy moves a predatory spell an Enemy cast and deals d3 to your unit. (Enemy control, Enemy cast)

Which of these would would count for lens of refraction? Does it require they control it or they cast it, does it have to be both, is it just all endless spells.

In this regard in my opinion it makes most sense to consider the mortal wounds dealt by an endless spell to come from the model rather than the enemy wizard. This would be distinct from Spell Mirror which just requires you are affected by a spell. 

[PlasticCraic]

@Malakree I hope you're right (anything that gets through the ridiculous Stormcast armour saves is welcome in my eyes), but RAW I would have to say 3. and 4. do not apply.  Moving the spell around / controlling it isn't casting it, and as far as I can see there is nothing in there making any stipulations about controlling it - only that the spell was cast by an enemy wizard, which in 1. and 2. it was, in 3. and 4. it wasn't.

It's an unusual interaction and worth sending off to the FAQ team, but as it stands unfortunately I don't see that the rules for moving an Endless Spell after setup counteract the fact that an enemy wizard (yours) cast that spell.

At least you could hurt them by moving their own Endless Spell back over them in this scenario (it wasn't cast by an enemy wizard).

[Skabnoze]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

 So I read the pendulum and the way I interpret it is you set it up with the length ways along a line. It then moves forward and backwards down that line.

So it can go back but both you and your opponent know where it could possibly go.

Means that how you originally place it is hugely important. Plus d6 mortals is vicious.

That was my interpretation as well, but it is honestly worded very poorly.  As I said previously, it is a pendulum so forward and backwards makes sense.  Also, it would possibly be costed much higher if the opponent could not move it any direction other than towards their stuff.

But I will go with whatever the common interpretation in my area is until GW clarifies.  Most people I talk to seem to think this thing works like a vector rather than a line.