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Mixed Order in AoS 2e


Zhorphorus

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Hi guys, it is highly suspected by some screenshots that skinks will be seraphon battleline only going forward. Obviously there are a lot of mixed order lists that use these as their battleline tax. 

In addition to this, it is rumoured the frostheart phoenix is going to 280, reaper bolt throwers are already out of matched play and there are some strong units and combos that have come by from DoK and IDK. 

With this in mind, has anyone had any thoughts on what we will see from mixed order lists going forward or if we will see them at all?

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I think Mixed Order is largely going to depend on finding some super efficient thing amongst all the order units and building an army around that.

Frostheart Phoenixes and super frustrating skinks were that before. Now that Skinks are out, it'll be interesting to see whether or not the Phoenixes are still good enough, as not only the Phoenix got a points increase but apparently a fair few mages have as well.

Overall those changes are going to mean a mixed order army running a similar strategy is going to need to find a replacement for skinks (At least +20 points per unit there) as well as taking hits on each Phoenix (+40 points), so the army is probably down 150~ish points at least already.

 

So I think Mixed Order may need to find a new strategy. Perhaps Freeguild Griffons are cheap and efficient enough to build an army around them or bringing back more Dragons. Given the prevalence of magic, I suspect that 1 Frostheart Phoenix might still be strong enough to play with as +40 points isn't a huge increase.

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I see 2-3 Frosthearts at 280 still being a no brainer in GA Order armies - it's the skink loss that really rolls them over. Can't find a cheap battleline body that can do the same job they could currently - Vulkite blocks add a lot of resilience to an already resilient army (and these might be going up in points, I haven't seen). Boltthrowers are out, but the new Celestar Ballista might be able to fill in that gap. 

They've lost a lot of efficiency and probably won't remain as powerful as they were. 

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The Stormcast themselves might feature more prominently? The Ballista is cheap it seems at 100 points and I think the Frostheart is still OK. You might see more heroes to benefit from the command abilities. Lord Ordinator, the Loremaster etc. 

I'm glad there's a skink nerf. It feels far more genuine, narrative wise, if we have a Stormcast centred list, allied with humans, aelves and duardin. The Seraphon really feel at odds to me. There's perhaps lore here I don't know however. 

Edit: are High Elf bolt throwers gone too? 

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I'm toying with combining 4 huge battleline units, 2 of freeguild with militia weapons, 1 of double handed dwarf warriors, and 1 of arkonaughts with max skyhooks. Characters to support those various units as well as a branchwych for summoning some additional bodies. There are still points and tweaks to be made after but that's the start. Leaves between 300-400 depending on how you go. Seems like a solid start to an army. And with stacking CP those militia units could be terrifying. 

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1 hour ago, Hulksmash said:

Characters to support those various units as well as a branchwych for summoning some additional bodies.

Do we know exactly what the constraints on Branchwych summoning are? I hadn't thought about how potent that would be in a GA or Allies situation...

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They just changed her base spell from rando 2d6 or whatever models to flat 10 dryads. Since it's her basic spell she can be slotted into any Order army to add 30-50 dryads over the course of the game if you can roll a 7+ and it doesn't get dispelled.Insert other media.

Well any order army that can ally sylvaneth or is a mixed order army.

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On 6/18/2018 at 10:18 PM, Freejack02 said:

Do we know exactly what the constraints on Branchwych summoning are? I hadn't thought about how potent that would be in a GA or Allies situation...

 

On 6/18/2018 at 10:27 PM, Hulksmash said:

They just changed her base spell from rando 2d6 or whatever models to flat 10 dryads. Since it's her basic spell she can be slotted into any Order army to add 30-50 dryads over the course of the game if you can roll a 7+ and it doesn't get dispelled.Insert other media.

Well any order army that can ally sylvaneth or is a mixed order army.

I was looking at a Mixed Order army that centred around Dryads and a Branchwych (it's the Realm Themed army thread) because of this. I was trying to create spooky Ulgu forest list that played on Bravery, and it occured to me how strong it could be in AoS2 if you're able to summon in Mixed Order. 

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How have people found the large unit of Arkonaught Company to be armed with skyhooks? It's expensive but seems like it would be a nasty thing with all the high damage shots and even all the low damage shots if you have the Khemist pick pistols because you're in cc. Any experience with it? Curious before I convert up a crazy unit for my theme.

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On 6/18/2018 at 2:18 PM, Freejack02 said:

Do we know exactly what the constraints on Branchwych summoning are? I hadn't thought about how potent that would be in a GA or Allies situation...

The Dryads have to be placed in a Sylvaneth Wyldwood.  To place one you need one of these:

  • Sylvaneth Allegiance to place one during setup
  •  Tree Lord Ancient to place one with an ability
  • Allarielle the Everqueen to place one via an ability
  • Acorn of the Ages (Sylvaneth Allegiance artifact)
  • Verdant Blessing (Sylvaneth Allegiance spell)

I *think* you can also pay 40 points for the scenery, but I am unsure when/how this is deployed.

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48 minutes ago, Kelbesq said:

The Dryads have to be placed in a Sylvaneth Wyldwood.  To place one you need one of these:

  • Sylvaneth Allegiance to place one during setup
  •  Tree Lord Ancient to place one with an ability
  • Allarielle the Everqueen to place one via an ability
  • Acorn of the Ages (Sylvaneth Allegiance artifact)
  • Verdant Blessing (Sylvaneth Allegiance spell)

I *think* you can also pay 40 points for the scenery, but I am unsure when/how this is deployed.

Yeeeah, and both the Ancient and Alarielle's abilities are not guaranteed, so banking on this in GA Order seems hard. As well, the 40 points must be paid at list building...whether you can sucessfully summon it or not. So, unless there are some Warscroll changes in 2.0 to help with this, then this idea is a good bit of a long shot (though that just makes my desire to get it to work even moreso...)

For general GA Order, I think Freeguild Sword and Board guard will end up being a good and cheap go-to Battleline. Even without Freeguild buffs, they are efficient.

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Just 280 for the Frost Phoenixes? I was hearing 300 and 380 for the Flamespyre. Makes me curious what it will be and if the warscrolls change (Cause I believe the liberator warscroll has changed they showed that in one of the streams I think)

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How have liberators changed?

On 6/22/2018 at 5:52 PM, Enochi said:

Just 280 for the Frost Phoenixes? I was hearing 300 and 380 for the Flamespyre. Makes me curious what it will be and if the warscrolls change (Cause I believe the liberator warscroll has changed they showed that in one of the streams I think)

 

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280 for a Frostheart Phoenix I think is still a more than valid reason to take 2 of them. Considerig magic is getting more powerful we will ahve more mages on the board and the phoenix ability to gain save triggers within 12"; we will easily be getting 2+ saves phoenix due to the amount of mages they will have surrounding them.

 

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9 hours ago, Phantajisto said:

How have liberators changed?

 

From what I am reading they have lost the reroll ones for paired weapons and instead have on a 6+ to hit with paired weapons generate an extra attack.

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@Enochi The Flamespyre is at 380, and this is largely because the rebirth ability actually works in matched play. When it dies you get it back on a 4+. Unfortunately, the points increase is a bit of an overcorrection and it likely isn't worth it.

 

Now that the entire points list for 2018 is available I've been thinking quite a bit about mixed order and what competitive niche it might fill. The standard frosty and company lists that performed well in the previous edition have gone up substantially in points and likely aren't workable as a pure port to the new ruleset. 

Looking at the new points costs, a few things jump out at me:

  • The Battleline Problem: Skinks were great as battleline tax before, either in small or in large units. Now there is no standout generic battleline unit. Freeguild Guard seem fine, with the sword and board option still being very efficient on defense. A number of other options are also OK but generally require more investment (Witch Aelves and Vulkites for example).
  • The Frostheart Phoenix is still good but it doesn't stand out quite so strongly before. It's now somewhat inefficient against mortal wounds and does need to trigger save bonuses from spells in order to get really efficient against non-mortals. It's also pretty inefficient on offense, but it's speed and utility still make it a solid choice. It's also probably the single best thing to combo with Sisters of the Thorn. The change to Mystic Shield is also arguably a buff as the reroll is arguably more powerful than an extra +1 save.
  • There are some very efficient units now. By the standards of last edition, White Lions are super efficient on offense. Phoenix Guard are insanely efficient on defense by any standard (only slightly worse than sword and board Freeguild Guard against rend 0 and better against mortals) and are even respectably efficient on offense. 

The problem is that even these units that stand out on efficiency don't really give any advantages over specific faction units in the context of their own battletome. Namarti Thralls at baseline are more offensively efficient than White Lions (albeit defensively less efficient), and that doesn't even factor in faction buffs. Witch Aelves are another example. They are already insanely efficient on offense which is theoretically compensated by them being quite inefficient on defense. Once you factor the 5++ rerollable save that they can get through allegiance abilities they are nearly as efficient as Phoenix Guard on defense, too.

Assuming you are going for competitive power, I'm not really sure going for mixed Order brings much to the table now.

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1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

The Frostheart Phoenix is still good but it doesn't stand out quite so strongly before. It's now somewhat inefficient against mortal wounds

Wait, really? By what metric? Is there another 280 point model that has 12 wounds and a 4+ mortal save? Anything near it's price point that can boast 24 effective wounds against mortals (I'm genuinely asking)?

If the Frostheart Phoenix is inefficient against mortal wounds, what on earth is efficient?

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8 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Wait, really? By what metric? Is there another 280 point model that has 12 wounds and a 4+ mortal save? Anything near it's price point that can boast 24 effective wounds against mortals (I'm genuinely asking)?

If the Frostheart Phoenix is inefficient against mortal wounds, what on earth is efficient?

It's just basic math. Like you said, it's got 24 effective wounds against mortals and costs 280 points. That's 11.66 points per mortal wound. So literally any warscroll that costs less than 11.66 points per wound (even without factoring in saves) is more defensively efficient against mortals than the frostie. That is a really long list.

You're absolutely correct that 11.66 points per wound against mortals is quite good when compared only with behemoths and characters, so the frostie does stand out in this regard. It's probably the most defensively efficient Big Thing in the game. It's still really fast and it hits hard enough that it'll be at least decent in some battleplans and great in others. 
 

I 100% believe that it's still possible to make a good phoenix list, particularly if the realm spells actually get used on competitive play. The problem is that I'm not sure that these lists will be able to compete with what faction armies have to offer. It's been speculated that the metagame will break down into a sortof "aggro and control" dynamic with summoning armies offering up lategame inevitability while non-summoning lists try to get ahead early. Does one really want to end up playing a defensive list that doesn't summon?  Can your frostie list outperform a Seraphon or Sylvaneth list on a defensive gameplan? Does it give you enough of a defensive advantage to justify trading off the absurd offense you could be getting from Daughters of Khaine?

When I did the math on Witch Aelves I really couldn't believe their offensive efficiency numbers. A unit of 30 plus a Hag Queen deals an average of .183 rend 0 damage per point even if you full factor in the Hag Queen's cost and don't factor in the Hag Queen's attacks or prayers at all. On turn 3 and later it only gets better, with Hag Narr Witch Aelves dealing a ridiculous .244 rend 0 damage per point on turn 3 and later. There are more buffs one could factor in as well which would only boost that number higher.  I've done a lot of number crunching over the last year or two and I've never seen numbers that high. In the past, anything over .1 is absolutely elite level offense. Kurnoth Hunters under GHB 2016 maxxed out at just over .1.  A Frostlord on Stonehorn charging with two swigs of battlebrew in GHB 2016 was also just over .1 -- and those numbers are scaled to represent the rend and mortal wounds that those warscrolls feature. Scores of .183 and .244 are just crazy. 

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46 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

It's just basic math. Like you said, it's got 24 effective wounds against mortals and costs 280 points. That's 11.66 points per mortal wound. So literally any warscroll that costs less than 11.66 points per wound (even without factoring in saves) is more defensively efficient against mortals than the frostie. That is a really long list.

You're absolutely correct that 11.66 points per wound against mortals is quite good when compared only with behemoths and characters, so the frostie does stand out in this regard. It's probably the most defensively efficient Big Thing in the game. It's still really fast and it hits hard enough that it'll be at least decent in some battleplans and great in others. 

Ah, ok - I was measuring it against other characters/single models like you mentioned. With large units, yes you can get more efficient cost per wound. Understood.

As for the rest of your post, I agree that unit value needs to be weighed relative to what other advantages you could be fielding. As for DoK, I know they have really strong offense numbers (didn't realize it was quite that efficient), and I'm just glad that no one I know fields them. 

 

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Okay I have been messing around with this idea. I picked up the Malign Sorcery Box and have been looking through the artifacts and spells and frankly they are quite good to say the least. Question being how to best leverage them. Here is my current thought.

First as a core I'm going to with a Harvest Boon battalion which is 2 Branchwraiths and 3 units of Dryads. This gives us our Battle-line requirements 2 extra command points, 2 extra Artifacts, and +1 to spells cast by the Branchwraiths. Also gives access to an artifact that lets us take add a deepwood spell to one of our spell casters.  It does eat up 700 points though. I'm not really worried about the Branchwraiths having a "useless spell" as with each realm providing 7 spells known to pick from the should always have something to cast.

From here I think Frostheart phoenix still reigns as one of most efficient unit especially with the plethora of endless spells I think will be flooding the battlefields.

Of the Endless spells I think the most effective are the Geminids, Aethervoid, and Lifeswarm. Taking all 3 is 140 points. Geminids set up at the longest distance away at 18 in and with a 8 in movement they can't as easily be swung back against you. Aethervoid goes in a single direction so again it the one to least backfire against you. Lifeswarm I think is solid but it can backfire against you but won't get your mages killed by their own spells.  

This is my current list in very early stages.

Leaders:
Branchwraith
Branchwraith
Archmage on Horse
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix

Battleline:
Dryads
Dryads
Dryads

Other units:
Sisters of the Thorn

Battalion:
Forestfolk
Harvestboon

(You could also swap Archmage for a 3rd branchwraith and take Shackles or Quicksilver swords if you want)

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On 6/23/2018 at 10:04 PM, Frozenbeast said:

280 for a Frostheart Phoenix I think is still a more than valid reason to take 2 of them. Considerig magic is getting more powerful we will ahve more mages on the board and the phoenix ability to gain save triggers within 12"; we will easily be getting 2+ saves phoenix due to the amount of mages they will have surrounding them.

 

Whats also nice is they can now use their command ability even if theyre not your general giving them rerolls to wound. That can be really good for them too if we dont have a loremaster in range

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True, although in an Aelf mixed order you might have to save Command points for something else. I tend to think at the Frosthert as a tank to throw in the front line to be able to pick which unit to engage and which unit I wanna stuck with the phoenix, and for this reason dik if I wanna use one CP for that. . 

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14 hours ago, Enochi said:

Okay I have been messing around with this idea. I picked up the Malign Sorcery Box and have been looking through the artifacts and spells and frankly they are quite good to say the least. Question being how to best leverage them. Here is my current thought.

First as a core I'm going to with a Harvest Boon battalion which is 2 Branchwraiths and 3 units of Dryads. This gives us our Battle-line requirements 2 extra command points, 2 extra Artifacts, and +1 to spells cast by the Branchwraiths. Also gives access to an artifact that lets us take add a deepwood spell to one of our spell casters.  It does eat up 700 points though. I'm not really worried about the Branchwraiths having a "useless spell" as with each realm providing 7 spells known to pick from the should always have something to cast.

From here I think Frostheart phoenix still reigns as one of most efficient unit especially with the plethora of endless spells I think will be flooding the battlefields.

Of the Endless spells I think the most effective are the Geminids, Aethervoid, and Lifeswarm. Taking all 3 is 140 points. Geminids set up at the longest distance away at 18 in and with a 8 in movement they can't as easily be swung back against you. Aethervoid goes in a single direction so again it the one to least backfire against you. Lifeswarm I think is solid but it can backfire against you but won't get your mages killed by their own spells.  

This is my current list in very early stages.

Leaders:
Branchwraith
Branchwraith
Archmage on Horse
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix
Frostheart Phoenix

Battleline:
Dryads
Dryads
Dryads

Other units:
Sisters of the Thorn

Battalion:
Forestfolk
Harvestboon

(You could also swap Archmage for a 3rd branchwraith and take Shackles or Quicksilver swords if you want)

What is the benefit of taking the Branchwraiths in particular? Using Harvestboon to get one of them a deepwood spell is clever, but very expensive. You'll need to take the spell that summons wyldwoods though if you want to summon any Dryads, so to pull that off you will first need to actually resolve the wyldwood spell, set up a wyldwood in a position that your opponent can't block, and then successfully cast the summon Dryad spell. Even if you manage to resolve the summon spell three times in the course of the game (very unlikely, I think) you are still just barely breaking even on your battalion costs. 

The frosties will do good work, no doubt, but they will need to stay close to all of your wizards in order to keep their armor up. While their ward save is nice, there are enough units out there now that put out absurd damage that you won't be able to soak with the ward save alone. The other problem is that I don't see this army putting out enough damage to keep up with summoning armies. You lack bodies to hold objectives, so you are going to get drowned by horde armies that can just keep addin gmore to the table. 

That really summarizes my problem with Frostheart Phoenix lists right now -- they don't have quite enough damage to keep up with summoning armies, and they don't have quite enough staying power to hold back "aggro" lists like DoK or Idoneth. I'd love to be wrong about that though. 

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