Gargant "Stuff 'Em In Me Bag" Buff - Now Extremely Strong?

[Jgroover]

With the new battleshock rule about models not in coherency being destroyed, the Aleguzzer Gargant's "Stuff 'Em In Me Bag" may have just become very powerful.  It is one of the only abilities that can target a specific model, so you could force the model in the middle of a line to be destroyed, thus forcing the new rule to take effect and destroying a section of the models at the end of the turn. Could be devastating on a big unit. If you activate the Gargant after the opposing unit, they won't be able to scoot into coherency with their pile in either. 

[Skabnoze]

That is not to be discounted, however bear in mind that he has to use this ability prior to making any of his other attacks.  That means that the opponent can pull his casualties in such a way that removing a single model via sticking them down your pants might not really impact battleshock.  You might be able to use that to your advantage on the initial charge, but beyond that the Giant won't really be moving in combat for other turns since he is a single model.

[Jgroover]

Right, it wouldn't be useful over multiple turns but if you can catch a big group of 40 vulkites or something and bring them down to 20 that would be very sweet. Your regular combat damage wouldn't matter since they would remove all casualties from the side that was going to die anyway but still, a lot better than his club would have done regardless.

[Skabnoze]

Just now, Jgroover said:

Right, it wouldn't be useful over multiple turns but if you can catch a big group of 40 vulkites or something and bring them down to 20 that would be very sweet. Your regular combat damage wouldn't matter since they would remove all casualties from the side that was going to die anyway but still, a lot better than his club would have done regardless.

I'm not sure I follow you.

If he was deployed in a line and you were able to hit that exact midpoint lynch pin model then yes this will work.  But units are rarely deployed like that outside of special instances and I don't think that type of deployment will be used much anymore given the battleshock coherency rule.  I expect that 9/10 times in the situation where a giant stuffs someone into his pants that it does not really make a difference in regards to battleshock.

I'm not trying to be a downer as I absolutely love Giants and anything that makes them better is great in my book.  I just see this as being a very rare and niche case.  But having said that, if the situation does arise and you have the opportunity for this then it is very good to be aware of the tactic and punish someone.  If your opponent slips up then you could potentially punish them a fair bit.

[Jgroover]

Yeah I guess if the opponent is aware of this possibility it would be easy for them to play around. I have very commonly run into huge lines of horrors or berserkers, skinks, skeletons etc. stretching across the board to prevent my Ironjawz from reaching important targets, and have a lot of trouble dealing with that to be honest.  The threat of this happening could help cut down on that so if it gets to be used or not I think there is only positives to the change. 

[stocke2]

Played smartly, you could charge 2 giants or a giant and another unit, remove that lynchpin model and if you are placed correctly he won’t be able to pile in to coherency because he has to be as close or closer to the nearest eanemy model

[Skabnoze]

34 minutes ago, Jgroover said:

Yeah I guess if the opponent is aware of this possibility it would be easy for them to play around. I have very commonly run into huge lines of horrors or berserkers, skinks, skeletons etc. stretching across the board to prevent my Ironjawz from reaching important targets, and have a lot of trouble dealing with that to be honest.  The threat of this happening could help cut down on that so if it gets to be used or not I think there is only positives to the change. 

I guess my point is more that I think the battleshock coherency rule is going to force people to alter how they position the models in a unit across the whole game.  Tactics that allow a player to dictate which enemy model dies get a nice boost from this rule, but I think standard positioning tactics are going to change across the game as a whole and it will make this tactic much tougher to do.  You simply won't see people positioning units for area denial in quite the same ways that they do now.  I think it will still happen and be a viable tactic, but I think you will see units formed more in double lines or circular formations more often.  Bubblewrapping characters is going to be more common now as well - because Look Out Sir requires the unit to be close by or it will not work.

[amysrevenge]

Here I thought I was being clever last night picking out Ardboys with shields.  Haha

[Skabnoze]

3 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Here I thought I was being clever last night picking out Ardboys with shields.  Haha

Now, this sort of thing I think is relevant to Giants.  You can eat people with Banners and other special weapons specifically.  That can be pretty nice if a unit has some sort of upgrade equipment that helps for Battleshock for example.  Having the giant use that banner as a tooth-pick, back-scratcher, handkerchief, or toilet paper seems like a nice little ability.

[Sheriff]

Or if the enemy attacks in a single line you can make them incoherent by stuffing the middle model in your pants, then opponent must kill half his own unit to get coherent again. 

[Skabnoze]

4 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

Or if the enemy attacks in a single line you can make them incoherent by stuffing the middle model in your pants, then opponent must kill half his own unit to get coherent again. 

Tsk Tsk, read the original post - that was what we were discussing.

I just don't think that after a couple of games people will use single-line formations much at all.  I think positioning tactics will change around how to do area-denial.

[Sheriff]

My bad 

[Jgroover]

Could be situationally useful as a counter charge tactic too, when they pile in against one of your units and wrap around its likely you'll be able to find a weak point, and with nice gargant move, perhaps made better by chronomantic cogs, you could get to that weak point. If there is ever a typical battleline clash, there could be nice and strung out units to take advantage of. 

[Skabnoze]

10 minutes ago, Jgroover said:

Could be situationally useful as a counter charge tactic too, when they pile in against one of your units and wrap around its likely you'll be able to find a weak point, and with nice gargant move, perhaps made better by chronomantic cogs, you could get to that weak point. If there is ever a typical battleline clash, there could be nice and strung out units to take advantage of. 

Absolutely.  I think this is going to be a good tactic in the corner-cases where someone either does not understand this new coherency rule or they are not paying attention.  It is good to be aware of this tactic so that you can exploit it when the opportunity arises.  I just don't think that is going to be a common case - but I have been wrong before.

[Choombatta]

I am not very up to date on the wording of the stuff in bag rule, but does not the model chosen have to be within a certain range?

[Skabnoze]

3 minutes ago, Choombatta said:

I am not very up to date on the wording of the stuff in bag rule, but does not the model chosen have to be within a certain range?

Yes, 1" range.

So to do this you will have to charge the Gargant into range with the model you want to target.  Also bear in mind that the high-damage headbutt only has a 1" range so you will want to make sure you are in range of at least 2 models for 1" so that you don't lose out on a possible D6 wound attack.

[Choombatta]

13 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Yes, 1" range.

So to do this you will have to charge the Gargant into range with the model you want to target.  Also bear in mind that the high-damage headbutt only has a 1" range so you will want to make sure you are in range of at least 2 models for 1" so that you don't lose out on a possible D6 wound attack.

So you really could not break up a unit stretched out in a line in half, as the middle model will probably be more than 1" away in most situations.

Also, a devious opponent could use the "split" unit to remove the models in combat, setting up their unit for another charge without having to retreat.

[Skabnoze]

If you charge perpendicular to a unit that is arranged in a long line and you charge at the midpoint then you could break the coherency for that unit by stuffing the model you charged down the giants butt-crack.  Odds are this situation is going to be rare though.  And as I mentioned previously, be careful about removing all models within 1" with that attack since it will prevent you from making a headbutt attack - and that is his highest damaging single attack.

[Moonlightwolf]

Seems like this will be a rare occasion but possibly a way to take out badly positioned elite units. I imagine most players will get wise pretty quick but it might be a good way to ensure your opponent lets the gargant attack first since they will want to still be able to pile in to keep unit coherency. 

[bsharitt]

I think it could be a serious issue for models on 32+mm bases attacking the large models that have this ability to pluck out a specific model(I think there are a couple others) when elite models only have one rank to attack with. While I like the thought behind the rule, killing the disconnected daisy chain, this is going to be one of those super gamey side affects I don't like. I think adopting the 40k 2" coherency would  solve the issue for the most part awhile not making coherency stretching shenanigans too bad.

[mcbrain]

I used this tactic today vs a mate's skaven acolytes. It totally would have worked if I hadn't  killed the entire unit outright.