Nico Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Quote The interaction between the Azyros and the Warrior Brotherhood is not vague at all, it's pretty darn clear. The contention is coming from whether or not the set up also counts as a move, which is something else entirely. Yes indeed. The choice is between the simple way of doing it; and: reading the Azyros scroll and the set-up FAQ and concluding that you can deploy next to the enemy units (within 3"); and then going back to the WB Warscroll, noting that this ambiguously says "this is its move for that movement phase" (in context this can either mean (1) it's a setup and a move or (2) (given that set-ups cannot also be moves) merely that it expends the right to move in the movement phase so you can only charge in the charge phase later - putting it in line with all summoning type set-up rules); pick option (1); then read the Move FAQ - realise that you hence need to stay out of 3" rule; conclude that this trumps the Set-up FAQ answer; and finally conclude that the Azyros language doesn't override the "this is its move in the movement phase" either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 I shot them an email, maybe we'll see some words in the next FAQ. Until then, I'll just ask the TO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Okay something else. Castellant, Vexillor turn 1 drop 20 liberators (1 big weapon on prime, 3 big weapons on 3 other goldbros) - talk to me? Is there any advantage to this over 10 Rets? Other than your battleline requirements are fulfilled. Should be durable. Doesn't exactly hit softly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I mean I know you lose 3 grand weapon attacks over 4 units. Still, single activation (and teleporting tarpit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 If the Celestant on Foot's Command Ability was a fire and forget buff (and not a combat phase specific aura projected around him), then I could see the Liberator bomb working nicely. You'll hit a lot of enemy models with the AOE damage from the Vexillor. Would be better with 2 Castellants (and a wizard) - stack that buff (the healing does stack as well - see the Death FAQ answer regarding Righteous Smiting) and top it off with mystic shield. Although the healing isn't that big a deal except against MSU - lots of melee units chipping away at you. The healing kicks in at the save roll point - so before the enemy unit allocates damage (so it only heals previously inflicted wounds), it doesn't heal wounds as they are inflicted. Basically you can get a nice tanky unit in the enemy's face, while your mobile stuff and pew pew gets into a better position. Even when the unit dies to mortal wound spam, it's not the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Maybe I'll paint more liberators and get me another castellant and try it out. Probably needs 1500 pts with buff stacking. Edit/ No it's fine to test at 1000 (ofc you're a one trick pony and there are better one trick ponies. Key is maybe have this as half of a 2k list): Leaders Lord Castellant (100) Lord Castellant (100) Knight Vexillor (200)- Pennant of the Stormbringer Battlemage (100)Battleline 20 x Liberators (400)- Warhammer & Shield 5 x Liberators (100)- Warblade & ShieldUnitsTotal: 1000/2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 What would you put on the liberators weapon wise? I feel like shields are still pretty good. I don't fancy swords myself at all, unless 2 are good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Oh! I had a horrible idea. Leaders Lord Castellant (100)- General- Trait: Reckless- Artefact: Obstinate Blade Lord Castellant (100) Knight Vexillor (200)- Pennant of the Stormbringer- Artefact: Relic Blade Battlemage (100)Battleline 20 x Liberators (400)- Warhammer & Shield 5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt Bows 5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt Bows 5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt BowsUnits 6 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (160) 6 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (160) 6 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (160)Battalions Vanguard Wing (100)Total: 1960/2000 Is that OTT? I think the movement is super useful in Vanguard Wing but Im looking at the double damage on 6s instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozokus Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 You are better with shield and hammers most of the time Dual hammer if you wish but avoid swords as you may miss a to-hit bonus. Speaking about a unit of 20 libérators i should warn you that even if this looks nice on the paper. Liberators have a huge base and consequently a huge footprint. This is a huge disavantage in AOS Plus, things get ugly when the followings happens : -Your MEGA FAT unit get engaged on one tiny side and half your unit is 10" away from the combat and moving 3" a turn to get in range. -Your unit get engaged by both sides and is condemned to disengage or to be split in half. -Your unit eat a spell that decrease its stats. Suddenly, half your army has -1 to hit or worse. Point wise, libérators combats are average at best. You are in a better shape with 400 points of paladins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I'd think any movement issues can be resolved with the Vanguard wing. Spells hitting 1 big unit is totally something to watch out for. Their footprint is also big yeah. I'd think of spreading them out as they're dumped via sigmar's wind across as many units as possible. Then next movement round Vanguard somewhere else (in the case of wasting space or being split). I don't think it's better than the paladins but my brain just wants to build different kinds of lists at the moment and ponder them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Quote Liberators have a huge base and consequently a huge footprint. This is a huge disavantage in AOS Normally this is true. However, where I think it could work well is against Bloodbound or Ironjawz on Border War (Ghoul Patrol!). Take first turn, string out 15-20 Liberators 1 inch apart from each other 3" away from their front line. The Ironjaw can move pretty fast, but they cannot fly, so they are going to be held up by cheap Battleline for a good while. Definitely take the Shields, with +3 to save, rerolling ones, they are on a 35/36 save even against -1 rend, so the Megabosses are the only thing that will do any damage to the unit (and even that will be negligible, with a 3+ rerolling ones save after the rend). Khorne also have pretty abysmal rend (Bloodletters could be a concern). As for the Cabbage on dinner plate, they will need to run and fly to even be able to get over the line of Liberators (so wide is their base). You can charge in (more or less risk free) if the Megabosses aren't on the front line. Then chip away. Meanwhile the Prosecutors have grabbed both side objectives for 4 points and your home one for another - so 5. Then when it comes to the initiative roll and the Liberators are still locking or blocking most of the enemy army, you proceed to give them the next turn (if you win) and they will have spent two turns scoring 1 point only as your buffs remain on the Liberators). Meanwhile you've got 5 points in your one turn and most of your army intact. Then you will get another 5 points in your turn and possibly another 5 if you double turn them back, for a 10-2 or even 15-2 lead. Swords are bad if you have a Lord Celestant on foot (who is actually going to be able to buff them) as general or a friendly Hurricanum. Other than that go for Swords, since they lose far less damage output to ubiquitous -1 to hit debuffs (only 25% of the output is lost, not 33.33%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immersturm Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Why Liberators though. Why not go for Protectors right away? Sure, they cost twice as much, but the output is far better and the footprint smaller. They will also gain marginally improved healing from the lanterns seeing as they have 3 wounds a pop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Immersturm said: Why Liberators though. Why not go for Protectors right away? Sure, they cost twice as much, but the output is far better and the footprint smaller. They will also gain marginally improved healing from the lanterns seeing as they have 3 wounds a pop. With what Nico is talking about (taking my barebones idea to a better bones idea), the footprint is important. Liberators are also about as durable as Paladins (despite 1 less wound) in my experience. And you'll have double. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeonotakist Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 3 hours ago, Immersturm said: Why Liberators though. Why not go for Protectors right away? Sure, they cost twice as much, but the output is far better and the footprint smaller. They will also gain marginally improved healing from the lanterns seeing as they have 3 wounds a pop. Paladins are more expensive point per wound wise. Also they don't reroll 1 that is a huge difference when get buffed. Also you have to put some Librators in your army anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinncinnatus Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 On 1/16/2017 at 8:30 AM, Turragor said: Oh! I had a horrible idea. Leaders Lord Castellant (100)- General- Trait: Reckless- Artefact: Obstinate Blade Lord Castellant (100) Knight Vexillor (200)- Pennant of the Stormbringer- Artefact: Relic Blade Battlemage (100)Battleline 20 x Liberators (400)- Warhammer & Shield 5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt Bows 5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt Bows 5 x Judicators (160)- Skybolt BowsUnits 6 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (160) 6 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (160) 6 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (160)Battalions Vanguard Wing (100)Total: 1960/2000 Is that OTT? I think the movement is super useful in Vanguard Wing but Im looking at the double damage on 6s instead. I like this list! I think you should consider equipping the liberators with swords and taking the Amber Battlemage for Wildform. Now you have a 2+ save, rerolling 1's 3+ to hit and 3+ to wound unit. Just gives you a bit of flexibility should you run into an army without a lot of rend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted January 17, 2017 Author Share Posted January 17, 2017 Has anyone teched in a Knight-Heraldor in Sylvaneth heavy metas? Auto D3 mortal wounds against tree-spamming lists feels like a pretty neat counter play, and against other armies there is generally terrain to target as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Requizen said: Has anyone teched in a Knight-Heraldor in Sylvaneth heavy metas? Auto D3 mortal wounds against tree-spamming lists feels like a pretty neat counter play, and against other armies there is generally terrain to target as well. I've considered this for my WB. However; the Sylvaneth heavy meta is a bit of a myth at the moment. Plus; often the models coming through the trees are your heavy hitting TLA and SOD; who will likely be healed up for your D3 Damage if you cannot cripple them in one turn. Honestly, You're still seeing a big spread of armies battling for the top spots and that, in my opinion is a healthy meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDK Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 On 1/16/2017 at 1:30 PM, Turragor said: - List - Is that OTT? I think the movement is super useful in Vanguard Wing but Im looking at the double damage on 6s instead. I'd actually forgo the 3rd Judicator unit to bulk your Prosecutors, for the same Points the damage output is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immersturm Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Yeah, but Liberators hit like a soft pillow. You need something that deals damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Immersturm said: Yeah, but Liberators hit like a soft pillow. You need something that deals damage. I've placed a relicator directly behind my liberator shield wall. This way he can deal his MW's (on a 3+) to the units attacking the liberators, as well as heal them up if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinncinnatus Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 I've always felt the Lord Relictor doesn't get enough credit for his -1 to hit debuff with that MW ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Just now, Cinncinnatus said: I've always felt the Lord Relictor doesn't get enough credit for his -1 to hit debuff with that MW ability. Exactly! Many people overlook that portion of it. But it lasts till your next hero phase. Has a large impact. The Lord Relictor has won me 2 games just by surviving till the battle plan ended, 3+ save, -1 rend, Can heal himself if needed. In fact I liked him so much I now have 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeonotakist Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Immersturm said: Yeah, but Liberators hit like a soft pillow. You need something that deals damage. Not exactly true. The Prime with special weapon got 3A/4+/3+/-1/2D which is quite significant as something 100 pts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 54 minutes ago, chord said: Exactly! Many people overlook that portion of it. But it lasts till your next hero phase. Has a large impact. The Lord Relictor has won me 2 games just by surviving till the battle plan ended, 3+ save, -1 rend, Can heal himself if needed. In fact I liked him so much I now have 2 And 80 pts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 minute ago, Aeonotakist said: Not exactly true. The Prime with special weapon got 3A/4+/3+/-1/2D which is quite significant as something 100 pts. Yep plus 6 more grand weapon attacks in the unit. Vanguard double wounds on 6s for all the libs. I'll be trying it once I'm rich and hve painting time for 5 more libs and - oh my - 6 boxes of prosecutors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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