The "We are all playing with toy soldiers" - argument

[Infeston]

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to voice my opinion on a certain statement I very often read in this forum and always found kind of weird. Everytime I read this statement I was always thinking about "Should I commenton this, because it bothers me? Because I really don't want to spread any negativity for mentioning that I don't like this statement".

And I thought instead of answering in the threads the statement was mentioned, I can just create a thread for this special topic. 

I think everyone has recognized that the tension in argumentations and discussions has risen, because of the upcoming new edition. I have visited many forums for many different games and with every game and every new update it is always the same procedure that happens everytime:

1. First there are people complaining about the changes, then there are people liking the changes (I think this is the part where everything is okay as long as sensible and open-minded)

2. In the second phase (and thats where it gets in the area of not being "okay") there are people complaining about people complaining or people complaining about people liking that changes. And I think this is what shouldn't happen. The moment arguments get personal and people start calling each other names, because they think the other group is "dumb" for liking a change or the other group is "dumb" for complaining about a change. 

 

But I think I am going a little beyond my  "original" point. 

I very often read that some people want to mediate these discussions by saying something like this:

 

"Hey everyone. Stop being emotional or aggressive about some topic. We are all just playing with little toy soldiers at the end". 

 

While I agree that heatful discussions should be mediated, I really have to say that I have a big problem with the "toy soldier" argument, because when I read such a statement I often feel somewhat degraded and undermined (even if I am not part of the discussion and if I am just reading it). I know it is often meant nice but I think on the other hand it degrades people liking this hobby. 

I don't see this hobby as playing "with kids toys" or "little toy soldiers". For me it is a very "serious" hobby, which isn't different from playing golf, playng football or oher hobbies. I know people often mean well, when they state something like that. But I really wanted to voice my opinion on this topic, because I really hope it will have an influence on some people and make them think "Mhmm. Maybe I shouldn't use an argument like this in some discussions".

I just think by saying "We are all playing with toy soldiers" this doesn't really help to end such discussions in any way. Some people are very passionate about this hobby and don't want to be degraded to "little kids playing toy soldiers". And i think it doesn't help the discussions in any way by trying to mediate with such statements. There are a lot of other things which can be said without degrading the passion of someone for a certain hobby.

 

I hope I have not attacked anyone personally with this post. If I have this wasn' really my intention. I just wanted to state that I often read the "toy soldier" statement in a lot of posts from different users and I really just wanted to voice that I always feel somewhat uncomfortable reading this statement (even if this wasn't the intention), because I am also really passionate about this hobby and I don't like this argument. There are a lot more arguments which could be used in such a context without telling people that they are just playing with "little toy soldiers".

What do you all think about that? Are there also other people thinking the same way? Maybe I am also the only one feeling this way. ?

I wish everyone a happy day. ? 

[Melcavuk]

To use your own example when someone uses the "its just toy soldiers" comment its usually when someone is losing their mind over minor changers, rumours or sky is falling comments. Like you say its no different than football but to my mind that again is the equivalent to the guy playing a kickabout with some mates on a Sunday and acting like he's in the Premier League and like the world is crashing down because he feels "robbed" of a penalty or freekick he somehow felt he was deserved.

"Its Just toy Soldiers" is a way of saying people should and often do have far more important things in their life to get worked up over rather than losing their mind over a hobby thats meant to be a relaxing distraction

[pseudonyme]

My 2 euro cents.

First: yes they are toy soldiers. I am 40 and don’t have any problem with that, even more because I am more a painter than a gamer, but they simply are. In my mind there is no question about that.

Second: They are just stuff. Yes we invest time and money in them, yes we love the minis, yes we love the gameplay, the lore, even the brand, but, are just stuff. Passion is one thing, blind passion is another.

Third: Captain Obvious mode on: this is the internet, where nothing become a huge thing (basically a Seinfeld episode).

Fourth and final: I see this argument just as a way to remind people to calm down, that nobody will die in the end

[Kugane]

I personally think its a choice if we want to feel annoyed about other people complaining or the negativity. In all seriousness, other than a neutral response, there are only going to be either negative or positive responses. 

While a lot of communities are extremely toxic, In TGA's case I feel the ammount of negativity is very little, and when things do get out of hand a mod will always step in.

I think your best bet is to just report people that are getting out of hand, so a mod can check into it. If not, you are kind of falling into the trap of your #2 procedure ;), complaining about people complaining. So be careful you yourself do not become victim of this :). We live in a world where suffering is a universal truth, so lets keep it positive! 

[Infeston]

7 minutes ago, pseudonyme said:

My 2 euro cents.

First: yes they are toy soldiers. I am 40 and don’t have any problem with that, even more because I am more a painter than a gamer, but they simply are. In my mind there is no question about that.

Second: They are just stuff. Yes we invest time and money in them, yes we love the minis, yes we love the gameplay, the lore, even the brand, but, are just stuff. Passion is one thing, blind passion is another.

Third: Captain Obvious mode on: this is the internet, where nothing become a huge thing (basically a Seinfeld episode).

Fourth and final: I see this argument just as a way to remind people to calm down, that nobody will die in the end

I know the intention behind this. But I think there are also other ways to calm people down. 

Maybe just say "Can we all please calm down" for example. There are various ways to calm a discussion down. I also really don't want to offend anyone. I just want to point out that there are also people who don't see this hobby as "playing with toy soldiers" like me. And I don't think this statement gives such people any justice. 

It is more like a friendly reminder. If you still want to use this argument it is totally okay. But I wanted to point out that there may be others ways to talk about such a thing. I can still live with this statement being used and don't want surpress anyones opinion. I just wanted to voice my opinion and my feelings on the matter.

[pseudonyme]

I think the problem is that internet being internet, and people being people, reasonable arguments are not the most efficient way to go. As sad as I think it is. Who said that I was jaded?

I am sorry if you felt rather insulted by my comment, that was absolutely not my intent. I have no problem with passionate people on things that are more important in their lives than in mine, until they become too passionate / unreasonable / enraged. Note that I am talking in general. Please don’t take anything I say personnaly

[Gaz Taylor]

22 minutes ago, Melcavuk said:

"Its Just toy Soldiers" is a way of saying people should and often do have far more important things in their life to get worked up over rather than losing their mind over a hobby thats meant to be a relaxing distraction

This. When ever I use this phrase it’s a way of basically saying, “This is my hobby which I do for fun and to relax and I enjoy discussing and viewing all the cool stuff from everybody else who feels the same way.”

I have a very stressful job and it’s nice to relax and forget about it by doing something I enjoy and I don’t want to hear about people whinging about something which isn’t really a big thing. 

However, I’m also a moderator on this forum so I need to see both sides of the coin and approach what some of you say with neutral stance. Which means I can see why some of you may be upset about something changing and I undertstand this is also your hobby and something you enjoy. But when some people overstep the mark by being overly negative, I will act and usually will try and defuse the situation with this comment. 

So will I stop using it? Probably not but I may try and use it less if some of you generally don’t like it. Again this a community for everybody to enjoy ?

[Memnoch]

51 minutes ago, Infeston said:

I just want to point out that there are also people who don't see this hobby as "playing with toy soldiers" like me.

I'm not trying to be insulting or difficult, I'm just honestly curious. If you don't see this hobby as "playing with toy soldiers," how do you see it?

[DanielFM]

8 minutes ago, Memnoch said:

I'm not trying to be insulting or difficult, I'm just honestly curious. If you don't see this hobby as "playing with toy soldiers," how do you see it?

"Playing a more complex chess with detailed, expensive, skilfully painted pieces?"

It's not difficult to imagine an alternative, less condescending view of wargaming.

[Memnoch]

6 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

"Playing a more complex chess with detailed, expensive, skilfully painted pieces?"

It's not difficult to imagine an alternative, less condescending view of wargaming.

Fair enough. Like I said, just curious.

[AlphaKennyThing]

I think it's a comment that is deployed - quite rightfully - when people take the negativity a little too far to the point that you're reading their comment with a seriously confused face on.

I'll give you an example of what I think TGA aims for:

"Gah, not sure I like the new Look Out Sir rule. I've been thinking of a few scenarios in my head that it might not work, and I can't help but think in XYZ situation ABC unit could become quite powerful. Anyone reckon GW have considered this, and if so, how?"

We can tell the poster isn't particularly happy about Look Out Sir, and has identified a scenario which may very well result in something becoming really powerful. The way it is phrased is constructive, and allows for some on-topic discussion afterwards, which may alleviate said person's fears. On the other hand:

"Games Failshop have f***ed it. They never, ever get the rules right, and it's been like 30 years, you'd think they'd LISTEN to people. I don't understand how they can just write off a faction with a s*** rule designed to just make idiots with more money than sense buy a new army. Seriously I'm out, this has ended my army in Matched Play. Just keep buffing Tzeentch, GW, ggwp"

The above is an example where I'd be reading it thinking the poster probably needs to go and have a calm down. It's not useful, you can't really have much of a discussion about it, as there's not really been anything said other than ranting. Someone will immediately take offence to that, and before you know it the villagers will be out with pitchforks and torches and it'll descend into a tavern brawl. That's when you have to remind people that they are, in fact, miniature soldiers that we push around a table whilst rolling dice. Usually that is enough to nip it in the bud. People who are consistently negative in a totally non-constructive way, not open for discussion, just nay-saying for the sake of it, can very quickly become toxic. Everyone is guilty on forums of writing something that was supposed to be a bit tongue-in-cheek to have it totally backfire and derail a thread, we're using text to communicate and without intonation, expression and body language things can be taken at face value. Hell, I thought I was being the funniest man in NATO the other day, returned to the forum that night and discovered I'd pulled the pin on a metaphorical grenade and rolled it right into the thread.

I do get where you're coming from, sometimes it can be a bit ****** to be told a hobby you're passionate about is 'playing with toys', but no matter what hobby you have, it can be easily made infantile. Football; "guys, it's just a game kicking a ball in a net, chill out". Snooker; "mate, calm down, you're tapping multicoloured balls around a table". Obviously to the person passionate about such things, it's a lot more than that. Just think: it's likely the comment wasn't aimed at you.

[Karol]

1 hour ago, Melcavuk said:

Like you say its no different than football but to my mind that again is the equivalent to the guy playing a kickabout with some mates on a Sunday and acting like he's in the Premier League and like the world is crashing down because he feels "robbed" of a penalty or freekick he somehow felt he was deserved.

I don't know about other countries, but last champiship one team fans didn't want the fans of the other team to win championship on their stadion their started a riot and set fire the whole place. In one of our cities the groups of fans of two football teams didn't sign up the no weapon treaty, which means people get their hands cut of,get stabed or killed because of the district they come from. The robbed thing comes from the fact that most people that watch football here also bet on it, so if their team "loses" they lose actuall money, if the referee was paid for etc.

 

47 minutes ago, Memnoch said:

I'm not trying to be insulting or difficult, I'm just honestly curious. If you don't see this hobby as "playing with toy soldiers," how do you see it?

It is a game. Playing is something children do, like playing house or family. Games have have strickt rules you have to follow, there are winner and losers. When people play they have to worry that everyone has to be happy or they will stop playing. With games the only feelings that matters are what you feel when you win, and what you feel when others lose. And in general I would describe both as feeling happy.

 

1 hour ago, Kugane said:

I personally think its a choice if we want to feel annoyed about other people complaining or the negativity.

It is a cultural thing too. For example when two polish people met, specially if they haven't seen each other for a longer time, they both will start listing all the bad things that had happened to them. Who had stuff stolen, what they are sick of. It is actually seen as impolite if someone starts saying how awesome his life is, everything is getting on great etc. Plus if you seem happy two things happen, either people think your stupid. Because no one is happy. Or you can't control yourself, because something good happened to you, and it has to be really good for you not be able to hide it. AND when that happens the sociaty has to show your why your wrong thinking you could be happy. So they either take away the stuff your happy about, by making you feel bad, saying you have it because you stole it etc or they wait till your not looking and take it away from you.

[Karol]

2 minutes ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

Seriously I'm out, this has ended my army in Matched Play. Just keep buffing Tzeentch, GW, ggwp"

Why is that considered a non valid argument?

[Returning]

Bloody expensive toy soldiers mind and that's before you spent the time and money painting them!

What I would say is that this is the most pleasant forum I have ever frequented I'm member of numerous other forums on various topics and none are a patch on this. Having previously done a stint of moderating I know what a thankless job it is especially when your an unpaid volunteer. So kudos to Gaz and the other guys on that score and I suppose this community in general!

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, Infeston said:

While I agree that heatful discussions should be mediated, I really have to say that I have a big problem with the "toy soldier" argument, because when I read such a statement I often feel somewhat degraded and undermined (even if I am not part of the discussion and if I am just reading it). I know it is often meant nice but I think on the other hand it degrades people liking this hobby. 

 

You are of course absolutely right. As someone who really likes the phrase and has used it, this is my reason. The comments that leave no room for having another opinion are really disruptive and something that really hurts the TGA culture. When confronting these people on their behaviour it's an easy phrase to not  only reduce the tension a bit with a funny phrase but it's also trying to go the other extreme to balance each other a bit. 

3 hours ago, Infeston said:

 I don't see this hobby as playing "with kids toys" or "little toy soldiers". For me it is a very "serious" hobby, which isn't different from playing golf, playng football or other hobbies. I know people often mean well, when they state something like that. But I really wanted to voice my opinion on this topic, because I really hope it will have an influence on some people and make them think "Mhmm. Maybe I shouldn't use an argument like this in some discussions".

I would say the same to players of every sport. If I would see someone hitting a tree with their club on the range, I would definitely say something like: you're trying to hit a little white ball in an small hole, relax.' When players (or teammates for that matter) hit their hockeystick against the boarding in frustration I would do the same. It's all about people loosing control and then blaming their frustration/fear/incompetence on everything except themselves. It's that temper tantrum behaviour that you should always address. It's a lack of personal responsibility over their own behaviour that always end up hurting the experience of others. Funny thing, the higher up you go the less you see it. 

So the term 'little toy soldiers' in this setting is, for me, an attempt to give someone that seems to loose control it's a 'funny' way to give them contrast. And hopefully get them out of their righteous mode and get an actual conversation going. So in my personal opinion calling it toy soldiers in no way hurts your 'serious' approach to the hobby. But it's a good thing you brought it up, because if it hurts your enjoyment of the hobby talk it's missing it's point. 

[Kirjava13]

Karol again reminding me not to book a holiday to Poland any time soon.

[Karol]

1 hour ago, Returning said:

Bloody expensive toy soldiers mind and that's before you spent the time and money painting them!

What I would say is that this is the most pleasant forum I have ever frequented I'm member of numerous other forums on various topics and none are a patch on this. Having previously done a stint of moderating I know what a thankless job it is especially when your an unpaid volunteer. So kudos to Gaz and the other guys on that score and I suppose this community in general!

Yes, a bucket of 200 plastic WWII soldiers was around 20$. Tanks and trucks were 3-5$ each. Mat was free if you bought a bucket and a tank/truck. Ah good times, where I could play with toy soliders and not game.

 

57 minutes ago, Kramer said:

So the term 'little toy soldiers' in this setting is, for me, an attempt to give someone that seems to loose control it's a 'funny' way to give them contrast. And hopefully get them out of their righteous mode and get an actual conversation going.

I have yet to see someone get calmer when your making fun of him in a public situation. It maybe a good argument, but it is pure sofism. Has nothing to do with being right or wrong, or arguments, but everything with making the other side look bad. Because for humans if someone looks bad, he is automaticly assumed to be wrong. And am not saying it is wrong, it is actually easier to achive the same effect with arguments. What I do not understand is why the "its playing toys" argument somehow given a higher moral ground, then being seriously angry. Neither two seem to be better then the other.

 

Quote

So in my personal opinion calling it toy soldiers in no way hurts your 'serious' approach to the hobby. But it's a good thing you brought it up, because if it hurts your enjoyment of the hobby talk it's missing it's point. 

Next time you have an argument with another male call him a boy and check, if this doesn't hurt him any way. Specially if you do it in public. I advice doing this online though.

[AlphaKennyThing]

2 hours ago, Karol said:

Why is that considered a non valid argument?

It's not an argument mate, it's throwing your toys out the pram based off a preview and no other knowledge. What constructive discussion is supposed to come out of that? 

If the full rules are released and your faction has been nerfed to bits, slightly more understandable, but still not much room for discussion after a comment like that!

[Lousy Beatnik]

Of course it's only playing with toy soldiers! It is, and always has been. It's a game.

Warhammer was for GW to have a game to sell the RPG figures they already sold in large numbers. RPGs, for kids. As old dead mate said, the "Advanced" in AD&D was for young players to feel important, that they were playing a grown-up game.

Using it in place of "settle, petal" when people are getting all worked up over a game seems perfectly OK to me.

[Austin]

1 hour ago, Karol said:

Yes, a bucket of 200 plastic WWII soldiers was around 20$. Tanks and trucks were 3-5$ each. Mat was free if you bought a bucket and a tank/truck. Ah good times, where I could play with toy soliders and not game.

 

I have yet to see someone get calmer when your making fun of him in a public situation. It maybe a good argument, but it is pure sofism. Has nothing to do with being right or wrong, or arguments, but everything with making the other side look bad. Because for humans if someone looks bad, he is automaticly assumed to be wrong. And am not saying it is wrong, it is actually easier to achive the same effect with arguments. What I do not understand is why the "its playing toys" argument somehow given a higher moral ground, then being seriously angry. Neither two seem to be better then the other.

 

Next time you have an argument with another male call him a boy and check, if this doesn't hurt him any way. Specially if you do it in public. I advice doing this online though.

I suppose you could say to someone, "Please take a moment and try to keep in perspective that you are discussing (expensive) plastic objects that you nominally chose as a hobby because it provides you with a diversion (aka game) that will have no impact on whether your life continues tomorrow." 

But to me that or some other "nicer" way of saying you are being disproportionately impacted by a free time activity is no worse than saying, "Relax, we are all talking about toy soldiers here." 

Remember.  Everyone who says that is ALSO playing with toy soldiers.  Its all good.  AoS is a great hobby!  I have been playing warhammer games for 21 years, but please believe me when I say it is NOT serious business.

[silentdeathz]

14 minutes ago, Caladancid said:

I suppose you could say to someone, "Please take a moment and try to keep in perspective that you are discussing (expensive) plastic objects that you nominally chose as a hobby because it provides you with a diversion (aka game) that will have no impact on whether your life continues tomorrow." 

But to me that or some other "nicer" way of saying you are being disproportionately impacted by a free time activity is no worse than saying, "Relax, we are all talking about toy soldiers here." 

Remember.  Everyone who says that is ALSO playing with toy soldiers.  Its all good.  AoS is a great hobby!  I have been playing warhammer games for 21 years, but please believe me when I say it is NOT serious business.

I mean... you could just not say either? right?

Why not just either A. dont reply or B. reply to the thread with something relevant?

In my experience, someone who is angry and taking something overly seriously isn't going to go "huh, yeah you know what you're right. You've just changed my entire perception AND calmed me down" when you say something they are likely to take as demeaning or belittling.

If you truly want to diffuse a situation you don't antagonise someone - especially if, from your perspective, they aren't acting particularly appropriately/rationally as is.

On the matter of the original post specifically, I'm not a huge fan of people calling them "toys" or "little soldiers" either. It wasn't long ago that people saw video games as only for kids. As just little games for kids which adults should have no interest in because they aren't immature little boys. Yet here we are now in 2018.

I don't particularly feel that miniatures etc are at the level of acceptance overall that video games and such are now at too. And I don't think continuing to perpetuate notions that can be (even loosely) associated with the negative stereotypes/connotations that exist is of any benefit. 

I see no boon to calling them 'little soldiers' or belittling someone for taking them 'too seriously' in YOUR opinion. They can take them as seriously as they like, and people should not feel any need to impress their own personal opinion on them.

If they are being disrespectful etc to others on here then that is a matter which the moderators etc can/will handle. If people truly want to help and not just get their little dig / flippant comment in then they can steer the thread back on track instead.

 

[Kugane]

3 hours ago, Karol said:

It is a cultural thing too. For example when two polish people met, specially if they haven't seen each other for a longer time, they both will start listing all the bad things that had happened to them. Who had stuff stolen, what they are sick of. It is actually seen as impolite if someone starts saying how awesome his life is, everything is getting on great etc. Plus if you seem happy two things happen, either people think your stupid. Because no one is happy. Or you can't control yourself, because something good happened to you, and it has to be really good for you not be able to hide it. AND when that happens the sociaty has to show your why your wrong thinking you could be happy. So they either take away the stuff your happy about, by making you feel bad, saying you have it because you stole it etc or they wait till your not looking and take it away from you.

I think that kind of culture exists in many places, when people are not trying to get the aknowledgement of strangers (buying nice things to show off, facebook, etc), complaining about life is considered "the" way to communicate. I see it among my acquaintances all the time, I finally get to see them after a long time and would love to hear what they have been up to, I drop the "How have you been?" line and the verbal stress starts flowing about how bad life is treating them. I think suffering is something universal. So nowadays I personally just let people complain and don't think too much of it anymore, nor get worried or irritated. I offer solutions where I can think of any, but ultimately I guess people just need a place to vent out all their negative thoughts and experiences, be it face to face or on a forum. In the end, I highly doubt any of us on this forum or in our close social circles are enlightened beings, have higher realizations of wisdom and/or love, so we all are sort of struggling and getting by, be it in work, relationships, or that Games Workshop not providing us those damned rules we want haha. Everything and anything in life, no matter what it is, is a seed of suffering if allowed to ripen, just like any substance in life is poison if exposed to enough of it (so stop snorting those acrylics people!). I think the same goes for warhammer - when exposed and immersed into it too deeply, flaws and issues will sooner or later emerge, and people will get desperate. I myself do it too. I also complain a lot to friends and on this forum about my favourite army not having the support it think it needs, I get why people would get frustrated, but personally I choose not to get stuck in those kind of feelings anymore, it arrises, I recognise it, I let it out if needed, and then, I just let it pass. I hope more people can adept that kind of mindset though, because I think it would solve a lot of issues for many!

[Infeston]

Big thanks to everyone for the comments. I was a bit frightened that someone might feel attacked by my statement. And the comments here made me understand the intention behind the words better. ?

I really love engaging with the community in this forum, especially because in my area (and in germany as a whole) there is no such thing as a thriving AoS community. So these forums and reddit are the only places where I can engage in discussions about AoS. 

And even though discussions sometimes get heated up I often feel (when looking at forums like this) that the whole "The internet comment sections and forums are often just a collection of many jerks" - statement, which is often stated in tradtional media sources just isn't true.

I often see forum posts, comments and statements in internet forums which are better differentiated than some News article and are also more sensible and more thoughtful than other things. I know that the internet can also be a toxic place. But on the other hand (even though many people always talk about the internet being toxic) I might have seen more toxicity in real life than on internet forums. Especially places like TGA show (in my opinion) that the internet can be a place for meaningful discussions, sharing interest and discussing things with each other.

[Karol]

11 minutes ago, Caladancid said:

Everyone who says that is ALSO playing with toy soldiers.  Its all good.  AoS is a great hobby!

See this is where we think different. First of all toy soldiers to not cost as much as an army does. Second, and I think this maybe cultural, calling something a toy automaticly means the person using it is a child, which then puts us in the the I sofisticated mature person vs a whiny child whos arugment are automaticly null and void, by the sole fact of being a child. So it is not nicer. If someone calls someone a bad  name, and I mean it in general, it at least makes the assumption that the counter person is a human worth offending. So your kind of a put yourself and them on the same level, although in total opposition. It is just toy soldiers is on the same tier of arguments as calling someone else a ****** or a communist, it more or less ends any possible interaction, but does give one side a feeling of superiority. And it works too, inefficient forms of interactions are removed from interactions very fast.

19 minutes ago, Caladancid said:

"Please take a moment and try to keep in perspective that you are discussing (expensive) plastic objects that you nominally chose as a hobby because it provides you with a diversion (aka game) that will have no impact on whether your life continues tomorrow." 

Serious question, are hobbies actually seen as a diversion, and assuming yes, what from? Am asking because the doesn't impact part seems an odd type of argument then. An army costs so much, and takes so much time to finish, and you live in a constant fear of it being nerfed in to oblivion, or buffed sky high that no one will want to play you, that I can't just imagine how it can not impact someones life. The cost alone is enough to have a huge impact.

 

57 minutes ago, Lousy Beatnik said:

Of course it's only playing with toy soldiers! It is, and always has been. It's a game.

See this is a part I seem to not understand, yes it is plastic soldiers. They weren't always plastic, but I think what your understand what you mean. Models were and never will be something like  a work of art. But the game part just blows up my mind. Because people get killed over games, playing in wrong places, being followers of the wrong team in the wrong place. I have seen people lose teeth, get beaten because they wanted to play football in the wrong place. Almost all events where there aren't many girls, end or have a high potential of ending in fights.

 

1 hour ago, AlphaKennyThing said:

It's not an argument mate, it's throwing your toys out the pram based off a preview and no other knowledge. What constructive discussion is supposed to come out of that? 

See, this is the kid thing again. You accusing people of throwing tantrum or throwing out their models and I don't think I have seen a mass of people saying they will do that. I do see a fair number of people that worry about stuff like free summoning or magic focus, specially if their armies don't have those options open to them. Worrying about how they think GW may balance that seems legit. Specially its not like GW is on its 1 year of designing games. They are what, a 40-50 year old company? I think that someone who seen them work for 10-15 years can more or less extrapolate what GW may or may not do. So if the fix to something they worry about, is only possible with an solution GW is not know to use, their worries are valid.

Am a new player, so my knowladge is limited, but when I see that the coming edition is suppose to be focused on magic, and my army has 0 mages, am I allowed to voice my concern? Or do I have to wait to see all the rules including those for narrative play and co, are shown.

Because even if we see all rules, someone could use the argument that the rules aren't finished till we see the general handbooks, and if the general hand book still gives problems to someones army, you could say they should wait till an updated battle tome. And if the battle tome still has the problems you could tell someone to wait for the next edition. This way you could expect people who see or have problems with the game , to never say a thing.

[Sim]

3 hours ago, Returning said:

Bloody expensive toy soldiers mind and that's before you spent the time and money painting them!

What I would say is that this is the most pleasant forum I have ever frequented 

Completely agree with this. I dont even play aos. I “collect” shadespire and now necromunda, claiming I will one day play with my son. Who is years away from being able to play. I just read what you lot say about the game rather than lurking on Facebook as the opinions are interesting and people don’t rant on here.

i can’t paint, I just enjoy the experience and collecting a quality product, but on the toy soldiers argument, sometimes I lose heart when the wife gives me a look that says that is all it is to her.

at the age of 36, working too hard as other people have mentioned. This is an escape, I pretty much want to say do one to those who don’t understand.