Arael_Greywings Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 I had a nice and friendly game today with one of my mates. I will post the list I played down in my post, and I won't go into hard Detail of the match. + Long Story Short: Scenario: Total Conquest Result: Major Victory for Tzeentch Reviewing my game I already found several errors I made during the game. -played the skelletons to passive in the back, where a group of wolves would have held the objective as well -brought the mortis engine in too aggressive perhaps so it got shot down before it could unleash the reliquary -made a few bad positionings All in all I learned a few things, and I don't mind loosing if that is at least the case (though I am a bit angry at myself for some of the errors). To do better in the next games I am now reviewing my strategies and trying to find some counters to the Tzeentch Shenanigans... So questions: -How to deal with Skyfires as a Death Player (aside from anti-shooting artifacts) -How to deal with the really supreme magic of Tzeentch (he had a lord of change, that was really nasty banning my spells at 27") Looking forward to some nice ideas^^ This was my list: I went GHoN since I wanted to use the Command Ability of the VLoZD rather than Arkhans, while still having him in for the LoS Battalion as well as Magic Support. My thoughts were that also I might be better of with the boosted Morghast. Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash LEADERS Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320) - Lore of the Dead : Vile Transference (Vampires) Vampire Lord On Zombie Dragon (440) - General - Deathlance & Shield & Chalice - Artefact : Balefire Lantern - Lore of the Vampires : Pinions Necromancer (110) - Artefact : Ossific Diadem - Lore of the Deathmages : Overwhelming Dread Necromancer (110) - Lore of the Deathmages : Spectral Grasp UNITS 40 x Skeleton Warriors (280) -Ancient Spears 5 x Dire Wolves (60) 5 x Dire Wolves (60) 2 x Morghast Harbingers (220) -Spirit Halberds 3 x Spirit Hosts (120) BEHEMOTHS Mortis Engine (180) BATTALIONS Lords of Sacrament (70) TOTAL: 1970/2000 WOUNDS: 128 LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 3/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ALLIES: 0 / 400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Well, skyfire is top notch filth... same goes for the lord of change, so there are no easy solutions. one thing I learned about skyfire is hit them first, don’t let go and kill them hard. So maybe think about objectives first, grab and hold. Search key models second and destroy them one by one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Skyfires are most potent when they have something to snipe. They hit hard when the value per wound is high but lack volume of fire. Things like Arkhan, Harbingers, etc are going to be sitting ducks. A better counter to skyfire cheese is to bring so many bodies that they simply can't do enough damage. Though, if you do, you need to really focus on bringing the opponent's inevitable gaunt summoner down or it is going to do a ton of damage. (this is true of Tzeentch in general, other than the gaunt summoner. Lots of MW means anything valuable gets erased but if you show up with 200 wounds of infantry to play the objective game Tzeentch is going to struggle to do enough damage to contest objectives.) Another option is that if your opponent is rocking a single big unif of skyfires is to put a necro up on a balewind rocking the -2 to be hit at long range item. Then just keep overwhelming dread on them all game. Also, on a side note, any AoS gunline is going to have a field day if you don't have plenty of line of sight blocking terrain. Your best investment might be in some larger buildings for your table so that you actually can hide heroes and such. The game is balanced around a relatively dense board, however, most players do not play on one which tends to skew the game's balance towards range even more than it naturally is. Ultimately, though, Tzeentch is top tier and will likely remain top tier until the new edition and possibly beyond. In friendly games your friend should be aware of this and bring an army that is less abusive. Tzeentch has plenty of mediocre units he can use to make the game more even. (flamers, screamers, chariots, acolytes, fatemaster, ogroid, etc) Personally, my skyfires almost never come out of my box, its not fun for me or my opponent. I try to slide the power level of my army based on what I'm up against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choocheelo Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Nagash in first cohort with 4 morgasts and right plasing is the answer. Try to put him close as any as possible to LoC and have fun. Lores spells with -1 to hit, wound and his unbind is the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Skyfires have a bravery of 6, LoB with a terrorgheist could be interesting. But as themortalgod posted, it is a point-objective-game, 40 skellis are just what is needed to claim and protect objectives, throw in some distraction targets like a VLoZD or Morghast and watch out for the gaunt summoner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arael_Greywings Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 Thanks for all the replies so far^^ Yeah more bodies 3 hours ago, themortalgod said: Skyfires are most potent when they have something to snipe. They hit hard when the value per wound is high but lack volume of fire. Things like Arkhan, Harbingers, etc are going to be sitting ducks. A better counter to skyfire cheese is to bring so many bodies that they simply can't do enough damage. Though, if you do, you need to really focus on bringing the opponent's inevitable gaunt summoner down or it is going to do a ton of damage. (this is true of Tzeentch in general, other than the gaunt summoner. Lots of MW means anything valuable gets erased but if you show up with 200 wounds of infantry to play the objective game Tzeentch is going to struggle to do enough damage to contest objectives.) Another option is that if your opponent is rocking a single big unif of skyfires is to put a necro up on a balewind rocking the -2 to be hit at long range item. Then just keep overwhelming dread on them all game. Also, on a side note, any AoS gunline is going to have a field day if you don't have plenty of line of sight blocking terrain. Your best investment might be in some larger buildings for your table so that you actually can hide heroes and such. The game is balanced around a relatively dense board, however, most players do not play on one which tends to skew the game's balance towards range even more than it naturally is. Ultimately, though, Tzeentch is top tier and will likely remain top tier until the new edition and possibly beyond. In friendly games your friend should be aware of this and bring an army that is less abusive. Tzeentch has plenty of mediocre units he can use to make the game more even. (flamers, screamers, chariots, acolytes, fatemaster, ogroid, etc) Personally, my skyfires almost never come out of my box, its not fun for me or my opponent. I try to slide the power level of my army based on what I'm up against. More bodies sounds like a really good idea, with good gravesite placement and a few support heros behind the lines (and with GHB18 a bit more shooting protection). He might struggle indeed to get to the objective. Like "HA! So you took 15 Zombies! HA! *laughs maniacly*" 33 minutes ago, choocheelo said: Nagash in first cohort with 4 morgasts and right plasing is the answer. Try to put him close as any as possible to LoC and have fun. Lores spells with -1 to hit, wound and his unbind is the answer. I thought about this too, but i had a feeling I might even struggle with Nagash against that Lord of Change, the high range of bans combined with his stupid ability to turn the lowest to the highest made for really high casting rolls. 22 minutes ago, Honk said: Skyfires have a bravery of 6, LoB with a terrorgheist could be interesting. But as themortalgod posted, it is a point-objective-game, 40 skellis are just what is needed to claim and protect objectives, throw in some distraction targets like a VLoZD or Morghast and watch out for the gaunt summoner... The VLoZD really did a good job there. He ate the full attack of six skyfires with three fate dice worth a 5 each, and stood with few Wounds left. I healed 4 points up on my hero phase after. My opponent luckily had not registered that he had pinions as a spell and had positioned his skyfires close enough so I could get in reach to breath-attack and charge. Reduced the unit to one modell (sadly the fate dice made it easy for him to endure battleshock). Unfortunatelly they retreated next turn and he used fold reality to bring them back to full strength All in all he was hard to deal with on any front... The Soulgrinder he put up center was tough to get down.. Ate two morghasts with a bit of spell support but got brought down by spirit hosts with van hels (eat 6 mortal wounds per turn will do it over time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honk Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, Arael_Greywings said: Nagash against that Lord of Change, the high range of bans combined with his stupid ability Nagash vomits spells like the supermodel he is. And cast hand of dust against the loc last XD otherwise it is the long grind, necros, vamps in the hordes, bats for the shooting, wolves for fast objective grabbing and then trying to tank the abuse but I‘ll guess there are reasons tzeetch is the top cheese , let’s see how they survive ghb18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Just thought I'd mention, GW just did a preview for new spellcasting and is putting out a preview of Tzeentch later today. I suspect this will be really telling on how much of a nerf that they are about to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Hand of dust is 3" range. To cast it, you have to first get in melee range of the target, then stay in melee range until your next hero phase, then successfully cast, then win what us effectively a coin flip. It can happen, if you first clear the daemon's screens, then charge it, then get a lucky double turn for a cgance to castbthe spell before it withdraws, but it probably wont. Nagash is still a decent option here, but not so much for HoD on the LoC. That's more a spell to ward off the few enemy heroes who actually want to melee nagash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortumnas Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 I had good luck sending my VLoZD after skyfires. Amethystine Pinions is awesome for target priority. Admittedly, I hid him and my Arkhan behind buildings since I had to go second. Didn't really go for offensive casting because of the curseling, just debuffs, of which fading vigor got through. Haven't won against tzeentch yet, but I'm thinking Legion of Night bravery bomb. I'm getting a terrorgeist. I think that plus ambushing morghasts and a general VLoZD with above suspicion could wreak some havoc. Not to mention overwhelming dread and banners... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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