AoS 2e previews

[choocheelo]

they are battelline for all death

[Sception]

33 minutes ago, Nevar said:

The Grimghasts look like they will actually be quite good at fighting their way through other large units.  I know they are not super exciting right off, but with +1 to hit fro Mr. Shrouds, more attacks if the enemy has more than 10 models (rumored), and some rend... as well as being not too expensive and able to field in larger numbers... they could pretty quickly scythe their way through other horde units like skittles, clan rats, etc.  The fact that they are Battle Line for NH makes me like them more, as I am really not a fan of 'horde' units like skittles and rasps, and I have fielded nothing but Spirit Hosts for the past year or so.

I think I am going to withhold judgement until we see the full 'synergy' capabilities that might very well allow Grimghasts to suddenly be outstanding.

Even if they are not though, the Revanant build for them is much pricier so we can hope their stats and abilities reflect that.

They get re-rolls to hit against enemy units of 5 or more models.  Only with the regular models' attacks, not with the champion's bell, which if anything actually looks a little worse, being a single attack that deals an extra mortal wound if and only if it kills something.  And, yeah, you can buff them, but honestly they're only barely better than chainrasps (ap -1 instead of nil, 4+ save instead of 5+ are the biggest differences), which are much cheaper per model and can be given all the same buffs.  What it seems we're looking at here is another skeleton warrior / grave guard situation, where the 'elite' version isn't enough better than the base version to justify the significant increase in points per model.  By contrast, spirit hosts are also battleline.  Much lower model count, but similar wounds per point to grimghasts (120/9 vs. 140/10), and the hosts have the ability to deal mortal wounds, which gives them a niche the rasps don't fill.

I'm not saying grimghasts will be awful, in the same way I wouldn't call grave guard awful.  But both do seem to be significantly outclassed by their cheaper, less elite counterparts.

[Sception]

27 minutes ago, ZaelART said:

Just to clarify, can Chainrasp take a Legion of Nagash allegiance keyword? Or are they allies?

All of the starter box nighthaunts can be taken in any legions of nagash allegiance army, gaining the appropriate legion keywords.  So chainrasps (as battleline), grimghasts, glaivewraiths, spirit guardians, spirit torments, executioners, and knights of shrouds (mounted only).  In addition, any other nighthaunt units can be taken as allies for legion of nagash armies, so provided you have the ally allotment spare, you can take any of the other new stuff, or mournguls, or the non-mounted knight of shrouds as allies.

Eventually I imagine they'll do more to separate out the nighthaunt from the legions, making them just allies, but that probably won't happen for another few years at least, not until gw decides to give the legions of nagash a new book, which won't be any time soon.

[Nevar]

17 minutes ago, Sception said:

And, yeah, you can buff them, but honestly they're only barely better than chainrasps (ap -1 instead of nil, 4+ save instead of 5+ are the biggest differences), which are much cheaper per model and can be given all the same buffs.

Yeah but this is also a larger advantage when you are taking synergy into account.  The Grimghasts will survive better due to the better save, reroll hits, have rend, etc.  But additionally they are also much more effective recipients of thinks like the Guardian of Souls revives.  d6 returned Grimghasts are much better than d6 returned chain rasps.  If you can return a model or d3 because of the Spirit Torment, returning a Grimghast is better than a chain rasp.

I agree with you that I don't think they are extremely better than the chainrasps and it might end up being a Skeleton/Grave Guard situation... but I think the unrendable save on these two make it a lot different at the same time.  Skeletons and Grave Guard were very similar in survivability because they could both be killed like popcorn.  Chainrasps and Grimghasts cannot have their saves reduced, and the difference between a 4+ and a 5+ is much larger when rend is no factor.  Especially if you are playing at attrition with Guardian of Souls and Spirit Torments.

[Dracothjay]

2 hours ago, Sception said:

they're battleline for nighthaunt, along with spirit hosts and hexwraiths.  rasps are battleline for both nighthaunt and legions of nagash.  Between them and skellies, max size skellies are a lot killier, where rasps are faster and tougher and not as dependant on large squad size bonuses, so if you're looking to just fill battleline or get to & camp objectives, then rasps are better, but if you also want to kill things skeletons are better imo.  Both are good at both, though, and both have a lot of relevant buffs specific to them.  I like both, and look forward to have the option of fielding either, or both.

I’ve looked at some synergies with our new NH warscrolls that have been revealed. Taking the spirit torment, guardian of souls and knight of shrouds, all of this gives us:

+1 to hit (KoS)

+1 to wound ( guardian of souls)

rerolling hit rolls of 1 (spirit torment)

rerolling wound rolls of 1 ( chainrasp get this for being over a unit of 10)

now apply all this to a chainrasp unit, these guys are 3’s to hit rerolling 1’s, 3’s to wound rerolling 1’s with 2 attacks each. This is incredible for a battleline unit.

speaking purely for chainrasp here, is definately day these guys can get pretty darn incredible. More durable than skellies for sure. Obviously skeletons put out a lot of hurt, but the trade off is less attacks with more accuracy. 

I think I’m gonna role chainrasp instead. I think 20-30 of these guys is going to be all you’ll need in one/each unit as we gain no benefit from maxing out. Just enough to absorb wounds to keep them over 10. 

I have high hopes for these guys.

[CaptainNippon]

8 minutes ago, Dracothjay said:

I have high hopes for these guys.

A Vampire Lord can make them +1 Attack as well.

[Sception]

1 hour ago, Dracothjay said:

I’ve looked at some synergies with our new NH warscrolls that have been revealed. Taking the spirit torment, guardian of souls and knight of shrouds, all of this gives us:

+1 to hit (KoS)

+1 to wound ( guardian of souls)

rerolling hit rolls of 1 (spirit torment)

rerolling wound rolls of 1 ( chainrasp get this for being over a unit of 10)

now apply all this to a chainrasp unit, these guys are 3’s to hit rerolling 1’s, 3’s to wound rerolling 1’s with 2 attacks each. This is incredible for a battleline unit.

speaking purely for chainrasp here, is definately day these guys can get pretty darn incredible. More durable than skellies for sure. Obviously skeletons put out a lot of hurt, but the trade off is less attacks with more accuracy. 

I think I’m gonna role chainrasp instead. I think 20-30 of these guys is going to be all you’ll need in one/each unit as we gain no benefit from maxing out. Just enough to absorb wounds to keep them over 10. 

I have high hopes for these guys.

You are spending 300 odd points and 3 hero slots on small, short ranged buffing heroes to fo this, all easily sniped, and bone of them contributing much beyond buffing.  For about the same price, you could have another unit of 40 skeletons.

Again, i'm not saying rasps are at all bad, they look very good, and in fact are 2 points cheaper per model than I expected (then again, so are skittles).  I just don't think the comparison to skittles is cut & dry.  An extra attack per model, and especially an extra inch of melee range, just counts for an awful lot for horde infantry offense.

[Richelieu]

37 minutes ago, Sception said:

You are spending 300 odd points and 3 hero slots on small, short ranged buffing heroes to fo this, all easily sniped, and bone of them contributing much beyond buffing.  For about the same price, you could have another unit of 40 skeletons.

Again, i'm not saying rasps are at all bad, they look very good, and in fact are 2 points cheaper per model than I expected (then again, so are skittles).  I just don't think the comparison to skittles is cut & dry.  An extra attack per model, and especially an extra inch of melee range, just counts for an awful lot for horde infantry offense.

I think maxing out cheap heroes can serve as distractions from your bigger threats, whether they be beefier heroes or units that are controlling the board or objectives.  It's another choice your opponent has to make and each time they do that is another chance for a mistake.  

[Dracothjay]

I’m hoping we get a banshee variant with decent screams. Pop them out 9” away from enemy (that’s if we can still pop them out of the underworld anywhere we want) and soften the enemy up with 10” screams. Death needs more ranged. Our hardest match ups are long ranged shooting armies.

[Arael_Greywings]

5 hours ago, Richelieu said:

I think maxing out cheap heroes can serve as distractions from your bigger threats, whether they be beefier heroes or units that are controlling the board or objectives.  It's another choice your opponent has to make and each time they do that is another chance for a mistake.  

That tactic actually works quite well.... I did it in a different way though... 2k Game against Stormcasts with LoB. Last time I played it they killed Nef of pretty quickly and then went on disassembling my list. Next time I went with Vhordrai, Nef and a Terrorgheist XD. While Vhord and the Terrorgheist togheter with another VL shredded his List Nef hovered totally ignored in the middle and debuffed and shot out spells...

[RuneBrush]

I tend to run 40/10/10 Skeletons in my 2000 point list, and currently thinking Chainrasps to replace one (or two) of the units of 10.  I tend to use them as objective holders so something with a reliable 5+ save and faster (flying) move, seems to sound like it'll fulfil that roll better.  Think it depends entirely on how your list is composed though.

Looking forward to seeing the warscrolls for the harder hitting units this weekend

[Sception]

Unless you're running first cohort, I'd always take rasps over skeletons for any unit of less than 40.  At 40, you can go either way.  In general, at 2k points, I think you want 2 max units of your chosen hoardy stuff, one unit is too easy to focus down, but 2x40 is more than many armies can handle.

Though less-hoardy lists that take maybe 2x20 rasps and bank on morghasts or spirit hosts or monsters for offense are possible.  Too soon to say yet if nighthaunt will have viable no-hoardy-units-at-all builds like the ghoul-less, flayer & gheist flesh eater list.  I don't really feel the legions can pull that off.

If you are taking what I see as the default 2x40 hoardy core for LoN, I'd give the edge to skeletons unless you're running nighthaunt specific buffs.  In LoN I think generalist buffers like vamp lords and necromancers are superior to spirit guardians and torments, though if you're also running spirit hosts, the non-mounted knight of shrouds is very good.

There could be something said for a 4x20 rasp core, still very hoardy but based on more & smaller units.  You end up paying 80 extra points due to missing out on the max unit discount, but the extra flexibility might be worth it.

Lots of things to try out, really.  I'm excited.

[GeneralZero]

The "how magic works" is on line!

No spaming of endless spells. It works as I said: you pay for 1 spell, and cast it as you want. Only ONE at a time. So, probably better to have 2 if you are offensive wizzard and you want to get back your points....

[Sception]

better than I feared, since it looks like you can recast the same spell again without paying more points if the first casting gets dispelled.  So nagash can open and then close the spellportal every turn if he likes (unless some rule we haven't seen prevents that).  Though he can't open the spellportal AND throw a purple sun through it in the same turn, due to the one endless spell cast per wizard per turn restriction.  If you're not worried about dispelling, another wizard could open the portal for nagash and then nagash could throw the sun through it and close the portal, maybe.  But with the extended dispel range I think you'd rather use nagash's high casting value to get that portal open.

[KoalaSnok]

The other wizard could cast the sun instead if you want nagash to cast the portal with casting bonus.

[Sception]

it's true, though purple sun is rather hard to caste.  Spellportal is easy to cast, but much more critical, so you'll want nagash's casting bonuses to ward off unbinding attempts.

Honestly, given the cost of purple sun, it might not actually be worth it.  Spellportal, on the other hand, will be indispensible in any nagash or arkhan based lists, imo.  Nagash lists for 22 inch hands of dust, and arkhan lists for 9 inch radius soul syphons centered anywhere within 19" of arkhan.  While Lords of Sacrament is expensive enough now for me to find it questionable, I could still certainly see a list using that formation where arkhan and his necromancers cluster around one end of the portal hurling damage and debuffs far downfield as a thing that might be viable.

[kenshin620]

7 hours ago, Dracothjay said:

 Death needs more ranged. Our hardest match ups are long ranged shooting armies.

I'm still waiting for Arkhan's personalized legion of sand dudes!

Spoiler

 

[Arael_Greywings]

It is going to be interessting... It also might make a Nagash / Arkhan Combination all the more deadly... Arkhan opening the spell portal first round, popping his command ability to extend all ranges by 6" then opening a portal for Nagash to throw some serious hurt through.... Hand of Dust and Curse of the Years  and maybe some debuffs.... And finally some nastyness like the purple sun.... Even though I think the Maelstorm might also put in some hurt if an enemy can't dispell it.. Ah the possibilities....^^

[Sception]

1 hour ago, Arael_Greywings said:

It also might make a Nagash / Arkhan Combination all the more deadly... 

I don't know.  Nagash, Arkhan, 2 archai, 40/10/10 skittles, and the first cohort is already 1850 points, only leaving 150 for endless spells or anything else.  And thats with no heroes to hold artefacts or feed extra spells to nagash & arkhan.  No vanhels.  Arkhan and your one big skittle unit are both super vulnerable to focus fire in such a list, and while nagash can wreak some unholy havic, he isn't generally going to win games on his own.

It's a list I want to try, but I'm skeptical of its competitive viability. I think the points spent on Arkhan in such a list will probably be better spent on a plain necromancer, plus bumping a second skittle unit up to 40, leaving 160 left over for endless spells.

[ZaelART]

Someone just posted the new knight questor war scroll, showing a change from doing 2 damage on a 6 or more to doing 2 damage on an unmodified 6 only. Wonder if there will be changes to existing death war scrolls.

[Nevar]

I am on the fence.  If Nighthaunt's chill touch Mortal Wounds on a 6+ got turned into an army wide effect, but it was modified to be on unmodded 6s only I would take that happily.  If they edit it on our few units that get it like Hexwraiths and Spirit Hosts I will be sad because then Mr. Shrouds is suddenly not as good, although it would protect those units from the debuff aura damage output fall off.