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Sception

AoS 2e previews

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Legion of Sacrament are looking super strong currently. The changes to magic make Arkhan far better and give even more reasons to take the sacrament battalion. Sacrament can easily get +3 to cast meaning your buffing arcane bolt 50% of the time (the scroll doesn't say unmodified 10).

The mortis engine can be at a 2+ armour save (it gets cover) in the shooting phase and can re roll 1's now with mystic shield, meaning your necros can pump out 2 spells a turn. Since you'll probably have more spells to choose from you'll be able to increase the flexibility of your list. 

And new command points means you can run knight of shrouds or VLoZD in Sacrament and still get the casting bonus and the juicy command abilities. 

Will be really interesting to see if they re-point dire wolves.

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1 hour ago, Ashtyn said:

Will be really interesting to see if they re-point dire wolves.

Why would they do such a thing, wolves are the worst!!! Way overpriced, almost not playable, definitely not competitively...

#dontgivethemideas

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yes they are pure ****** and the worst unit in the whole game if not in the whole universe

 

#dontgivethemideas

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39 minutes ago, Lou_Cypher said:

Heeey.... Mystic Shield works with Nighthaunts now, right?

Assuming the "Ethereal" ability stays the same...yes it does work  ( 4+ rerolling 1s )

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10 hours ago, Elgard said:

Assuming the "Ethereal" ability stays the same...yes it does work  ( 4+ rerolling 1s )

Stormcasts are starting to feel jealous^^

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"Free" summoning incoming!!

Raise all the zombies!

Edited by lare2

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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/24/24th-may-rules-preview-summoning-for-freegw-homepage-post-2/

Summoning will no longer require reinforcement points.  However, it generally requires expenditure of some other resource worked into allegiance rules - eg slaanesh armies acquire pain points by causing or suffering wounds that don't slay the target outright, and then somehow convert those points into summoned units.

how this works for LoN is set to be previewed later today, so there's no use speculating just yet.  However, it's worth noting that because summoning in all cases seems to be tied to allegiance rules, it seems it won't be available to generic mixed grand alliance armies at all.  Kind of sad for mixed chaos armies in particular.  It would be sad for mixed death armies if Legions of Nagash hadn't effectively supplanted the death alliance to begin with, especially with tomb kings doomed to eventual banishment from matched play altogether via warhammer legends.

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we'll see...I hope that it is not a "bye bye" time to skellies blobs... I'm just building them right now ;)

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The implication I got was more a focus on summoning back the units you start with... not bringing fresh units to the board. More regeneration essentially, which is a great thing! Did I read that right?

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yep! and seems like there is no restriction other than paying a command point to do it. Honestly I don't think it will have a huge impact, although there will be some interesting decisions to be made, since if you have a unit that was hit hard maybe you prefer it dying entirely and coming fresh from a gravesite at the cost of a command point instead of maybe using it to block morale checks for that turn. 

 

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one thing i'll say is that this makes grave guard more interesting imo since their big problem was dying before paying for their points, this could help. likewise with big blobs of multiwound models like dogs, they won't require as much support and you can always bring them back. Great stuff

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"While the Nighthaunt will be getting fully realised as a faction in their own right, many of their units will also be accessible for Legions of Nagash armies – so if you’ve been eyeing up the new models, now you’ve got an excuse to pick them up…"

 

IM SO HAPPY RIGHT NOW! 

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Hmm the new summoning seems to suggest to me an MSU army that maximizes command points, so how we generate command points will play a big role in army design.

The real question will be how to balance big blocks vs min sized units. 5 Wolf units just got even better, but I'm conflicted on skellies. A block of 40 could now be buffed to high heaven and brought back if they get wiped, but would it be better to spend those points on non-summonable units and just use min summonables and resurrect them for free each turn?

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faction focus is up:  https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/24/24th-may-faction-focus-legions-of-nagashgw-homepage-post-3/

No mention of any added resource costs to the LoN summoning abilities, which is huge.

Maybe too huge.  The whole point of reserve points in the first place was that bringing a bunch of additional units on the table for free during the game utterly destroyed any balance that might be imposed by limiting the units that were deployed in the first place, whether via a points system or otherwise.  Endless Legions, freed from reserve points, threatens a return of those dark days.  Bringing back even just one or two maxed out summoning units could end up completely breaking a game.

Granted, doing so requires command points, and can only be done by your general, and only after a unit has already been slain.  So your opponent could deliberately leave a few models in a unit, but then our other recursion mechanics will quickly see the unit back to full strength regardless.

More importantly, the opponent could snipe our general.  But that's an option only readily available to shooting armies, and even then the new edition makes it at least a little harder to do so.  And if you play with decent terrain, you might be able to just hide smaller generals out of sight on a gravesite in your backfield, participating in the game only in bringing your units back.

So... yeah, this is an amazing upgrade for us, to the point that I worry about it going way too far in the other direction to become outright game breaking.

..................

Otherwise, yeah, news that we'll be able to use some (but not all?) of the new Nighthaunt units in Legions of Nagash armies.  They could just mean 'as allies', but it sounds like they'll be legal to take directly, which would be cool.

Also, preview of another 'endless' / remain-in-play type spell, this one wandering about inflicting a few mortal wounds and a bravery debuff.  But it has to pass over a unit to do so, so just how good it will be will depend on how fast it moves.

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9 minutes ago, Vortumnas said:

Hmm the new summoning seems to suggest to me an MSU army that maximizes command points, so how we generate command points will play a big role in army design.

The real question will be how to balance big blocks vs min sized units. 5 Wolf units just got even better, but I'm conflicted on skellies. A block of 40 could now be buffed to high heaven and brought back if they get wiped, but would it be better to spend those points on non-summonable units and just use min summonables and resurrect them for free each turn?

I don't think so, no. You don't bring them back for free. The battle trait gives your general a command ability to bring back summonable units, so it costs a command point to use and stops your general from using any other command abilities they might have. Bringing back a massive regiment is clearly a lot more powerful than a min sized unit.

This dynamic does bring up a couple of interesting questions though:

1. How much does this rule influence your choice of general? Only the general gets this command ability. That means that opponents will likely be going after your general quite hard and encourages you to take a general that is both mobile and tanky. I think the Coven Throne could be a very good candidate here, as it is fast, has a lot of wounds, and can benefit from "Look Out, Sir!" (as long as it doesn't get a warscroll change).

2. What is the right balance of unit size? You obviously get the most value out of bringing back a huge unit, but it's also tougher to fit such a unit in the gravesite bubble, particularly if opponents are trying to zone you out.

3. Will this change our gravesite placement? It's nice to have a cluster of gravesites near the key objectives so that you can hit your key targets with a lot of healing, but this placement will make it easier for opponents to zone us out. Will we need to spread out sites out more to give us a better chance of being able to get units back? 

4. Will this change our prioritization of offensive units? Having units that hit hard enough to push the opponent off our gravesites to allow us to resummon now seems quite important. Grave Guard are interesting in that they fill this role while simultaneously benefiting tremendously from being summonable. The only downside is that they are slow, which granted is a really big downside. 

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5 minutes ago, Sception said:

 

So... yeah, this is an amazing upgrade for us, to the point that I worry about it going way too far in the other direction to become outright game breaking.

 

I'm also concerned about this, although a lot of armies seem to be in line for potentially game-breaking summoning. I would not be surprised to see a new summoning meta. 

That said, one thing I like about the mechanics of this are that it really adds a lot of strategic depth. Placement of gravesites is now incredibly important, and I don't think there will be a clear best way to do it. It's going to depend to a huge degree on your opponent's capabilities, the battlefield, and the scenario. To master Death, a player will need to be able to take all of these factors into account. 

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Do remember, we don't know all the spells. We have a spell that can outright remove a unit for a turn. I personally think GW are making these rules in tandem with the new spells. 

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15 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

and stops your general from using any other command abilities they might have.

This is not true.  As long as you have command points available, a hero can use as many command abilities as they want in the same turn, even and in this case explicitly the same command ability can be used multiple times.

In think one to two hundred points in standard lists set aside for extra command points (since they can be bought at 50 points per CP) to burn on Endless Legions later in the game could easily be justified.

Additionally, if you're confident that the opponent won't be able to pick off your general before your next command phase, it might be advisable to skip out on a unit saving inspiring presence in order to instead use that command point to bring the unit straight back to full strength in your next hero phase.

As for unit sizes - huge ones.  Maxed sized skeletons, grave guard, and spirit hosts in particular.  If the opponent ignores them to go after your general and other heroes, they'll suffer badly when the big units plow into them.  If the enemy focuses the big units down instead, your general just pops them right back onto the table.

Edited by Sception

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15 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I don't think so, no. You don't bring them back for free. The battle trait gives your general a command ability to bring back summonable units, so it costs a command point to use and stops your general from using any other command abilities they might have. Bringing back a massive regiment is clearly a lot more powerful than a min sized unit.

I meant free in terms of points. Yes it costs a cp, which is why i said maximizing cp would be beneficial.

I'm just trying to say that spending 180 points on 3x5 wolves and being able to replace one per turn makes excellent screening/tarpits and has the potential to be ~300 free points of summoned wolves over 5 turns.

As for general sniping, take a non-behemoth, give em the shroud of darkness, keep em near a summonable. -3 to hit in shooting, -4 against enemies hit with overwhelming dread

Edited by Vortumnas

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on the other hand, one huge unit of 30 wolves (or 40 skeletons, or 30 grave guard, or 9 spirit hosts) absolutely must be dealt with or else you're going to buff it to the nines and smash the opponent's face in.  And if the opponent does put the needed work into focusing it down then you can bring the entire hoard back with a single command point.

IMO big units are definitely the way to go to get the most out of this, and it absolutely threatens to dump the balance of the entire game into the garbage.

Granted we haven't seen everything yet, but I would not at all be shocked to see GH2019 come out saying "you know what?  endless legions costs points now," exactly like GH2016 did for the old summoning spells.

Edited by Sception

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6 minutes ago, Sception said:

on the other hand, one huge unit of 30 wolves (or 40 skeletons, or 30 grave guard, or 9 spirit hosts) absolutely must be dealt with or else you're going to buff it to the nines and smash the opponent's face in.  And if the opponent does put the needed work into focusing it down then you can bring the entire hoard back with a single command point.

IMO big units are definitely the way to go to get the most out of this, and it absolutely threatens to dump the balance of the entire game into the garbage.

Exactly! That's the balance I mentioned a few posts up that I'm conflicted about - small units are absolutely expendable now, but big blocks are nearly indestructible, so it'll come down a mix of both I think. Lol good old min-maxing

Edited by Vortumnas
Sounded pretentious, didn't mean to lol

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Maybe, these new rules are the reason why they nerfed Deathmarch battalion wich appears much stronger now with Wight King more viable + 1 Command Point + summonable units which can be summoned back. What would you think about a Legions of Sacrament or GHON list with Deathmarch and Lords Of Sacrament?


 
Edited by Essilia

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im just going to plop 30 dogs and laugh as the opponent tries to kill them. and then when they do I can always resurrect them, so...

I do hope they don't increase their point cost though. They said they designed the LoN book with this new edition in mind, so maybe that's our hope that nothing major changes? 

On the other hand the influx of new nighthaunt units could bring about new strong summonable units; something glass-cannony would be ideal to kamikaze over and over to bring the pain to the enemy.

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31 minutes ago, Essilia said:

Maybe, these new rules are the reason why they nerfed Deathmarch battalion wich appears much stronger now with Wight King more viable + 1 Command Point + summonable units which can be summoned back. What would you think about a Legions of Sacrament or GHON list with Deathmarch and Lords Of Sacrament?

I think one or the other battalion would be better, as both are big, pricey battalions. Arkhan having to be the general in an LoS list is also now a liability, as he can't hide and will immediately be target priority number one for your opponent. Lords of Sacrament might now actually be better in GHON, since Arkhan could still use his command ability, and one of the other necros could be general. You lose out on the awesome LoS artefacts though.

I do really like the idea of a Sacrament Deathmarch. Lots of little heroes, lots of skellies, lots of maneuverability. Maybe some spirit hosts or a VLoZD w/Pinions? Could be very effective.

Edited by Vortumnas

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