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Age of Sigmar: Second Edition


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Are people really struggling with the errata for shadespire? It's really not too hard to keep up with and doesnt impact the game that mich

It still remains the quickest, easiest, most "competitive" and least argued over gw game by a mile.

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8 minutes ago, Carnelian said:

Are people really struggling with the errata for shadespire? It's really not too hard to keep up with and doesnt impact the game that mich

It still remains the quickest, easiest, most "competitive" and least argued over gw game by a mile.

I think many seem to miss what errata means, it means correcting mistakes made. To the point where I ask, why is that mistake there in the first place. We know that the designers from Games Workshop are getting paid, it is their job. If I made as many mistakes that needed to be fixed through errata on a monthly basis I'd lose my job after two months basically.

For me it's not about keeping up or not. It acts as an example why GW has product matter first and game(s) after. Errata sounds better as 'fixing mistakes made' but that shouldn't excuse making this many mistakes.

Games Workshop isn't selling books or models for 'cheap', I believe that in this day and age your allowed to expect some more quality. If you bought a phone (roughly same cost as a 1K army) that constantly had errors that needed to be updated you'd return it aswell and likely make a complaint about it. I see no reason to excuse GW if I pay good money to play these games.

A car without windows can keep up with a car who does have windows. That doesn't mean it's a good excuse to start selling cars without windows.

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8 minutes ago, Killax said:

I think many seem to miss what errata means, it means correcting mistakes made. To the point where I ask, why is that mistake there in the first place. We know that the designers from Games Workshop are getting paid, it is their job. If I made as many mistakes that needed to be fixed through errata on a monthly basis I'd lose my job after two months basically.

For me it's not about keeping up or not. It acts as an example why GW has product matter first and game(s) after. Errata sounds better as 'fixing mistakes made' but that shouldn't excuse making this many mistakes.

Games Workshop isn't selling books or models for 'cheap', I believe that in this day and age your allowed to expect some more quality. If you bought a phone (roughly same cost as a 1K army) that constantly had errors that needed to be updated you'd return it aswell and likely make a complaint about it. I see no reason to excuse GW if I pay good money to play these games.

A car without windows can keep up with a car who does have windows. That doesn't mean it's a good excuse to start selling cars without windows.

Literally nothing in the world is released into the wild in a perfect shape. No video game (multiplayer esport nor single player story game), no physical product, no tabletop game. Just look at something like LoL or Overwatch or SC2 or DOTA, which have massive playerbases and large balance teams dedicated to fixing things - they've gone years with patches and changes and updates. 

If you're expecting perfection out of literally anything, especially a highly customizable multiplayer game with lots of options and variables, then you're always going to be disappointed. The 40k and AoS books released lately have been heads and shoulders better than they have in the past, and Shadespire needing one or two tweaks is basically nothing.

Edit: to go off your own example, I would find it challenging to find any car without some sort of flaw. Ask any mechanic, and they'll say something to the extent of "Oh yeah, for XYZ make and model, the ABC component is a real ***** to deal with", almost without exception. Nothing released in the past year or so feels like "car released without windows" level of oversight, more like "car released with a slightly janky headlight". 

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6 minutes ago, Killax said:

If you bought a phone (roughly same cost as a 1K army) that constantly had errors that needed to be updated you'd return it aswell...

No, I'd just download the software update and go merrily on my way. Which is what most people actually do with their smart phones, which are, after all, frequently "erratad."

I like living games that change and respond to gamers' experiences and feedback. If everything stayed static from the moment of release, as with, I don't know, board games like Monopoly, I'd quickly lose interest.

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13 minutes ago, Killax said:

I think many seem to miss what errata means, it means correcting mistakes made. To the point where I ask, why is that mistake there in the first place. We know that the designers from Games Workshop are getting paid, it is their job. If I made as many mistakes that needed to be fixed through errata on a monthly basis I'd lose my job after two months basically.

For me it's not about keeping up or not. It acts as an example why GW has product matter first and game(s) after. Errata sounds better as 'fixing mistakes made' but that shouldn't excuse making this many mistakes.

Games Workshop isn't selling books or models for 'cheap', I believe that in this day and age your allowed to expect some more quality. If you bought a phone (roughly same cost as a 1K army) that constantly had errors that needed to be updated you'd return it aswell and likely make a complaint about it. I see no reason to excuse GW if I pay good money to play these games.

A car without windows can keep up with a car who does have windows. That doesn't mean it's a good excuse to start selling cars without windows.

There's also a when and where the need for where errata is most acceptable. For the core rules of a new game, or a new edition of a game, they should really be ready to go. I can forgive all the 40k codex errata because of the rapid fire release they're doing and in that case I think people are more than happy to see all the books within a year even if they do need errata after a release rather than still waiting on books three years from now when 9th ed(Age of the Emperor?) drops.

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5 minutes ago, Christopher Rowe said:

No, I'd just download the software update and go merrily on my way. Which is what most people actually do with their smart phones, which are, after all, frequently "erratad."

I like living games that change and respond to gamers' experiences and feedback. If everything stayed static from the moment of release, as with, I don't know, board games like Monopoly, I'd quickly lose interest.

Yeah, I've never owned a phone that didn't need a software or firmware update. Guess I should have just tossed them in the trash /shrug

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4 minutes ago, Christopher Rowe said:

No, I'd just download the software update and go merrily on my way. Which is what most people actually do with their smart phones, which are, after all, frequently "erratad."

I like living games that change and respond to gamers' experiences and feedback. If everything stayed static from the moment of release, as with, I don't know, board games like Monopoly, I'd quickly lose interest.

But if someone doesn't have a smart phone and bought a book they are in a bad situation, and its is not like books are cheaper then downloading a scan of the rules illegally.

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5 minutes ago, bsharitt said:

There's also a when and where the need for where errata is most acceptable. For the core rules of a new game, or a new edition of a game, they should really be ready to go. I can forgive all the 40k codex errata because of the rapid fire release they're doing and in that case I think people are more than happy to see all the books within a year even if they do need errata after a release rather than still waiting on books three years from now with 9th ed(Age of the Emperor?) drops.

I think the massive point that is flying over many posters heads here is that if the game is new (not a year old), but a new player now allready has 20+ pages of errata to chew through within a year on top of the 'original rules' your creating something that might aswell not be printed and sold in stores.

In the longer term, the stuff not sold because of the many errata's will be translated into new cost rises for the exact same models you like and love right now. It's good to see so many players being so happy about constant changes. To the point they are willing to pay for it regardless of them getting the content or not.

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3 minutes ago, Killax said:

I think the massive point that is flying over many posters heads here is that if the game is new (not a year old), but a new player now allready has 20+ pages of errata to chew through within a year on top of the 'original rules' your creating something that might aswell not be printed and sold in stores.

In the longer term, the stuff not sold because of the many errata's will be translated into new cost rises for the exact same models you like and love right now. It's good to see so many players being so happy about constant changes. To the point they are willing to pay for it regardless of them getting the content or not.

And I think the point you're missing is that it's all but impossible to put out something that won't need errata. Something is always, always going to get overlooked. It doesn't matter if you're a 5 man team working out of a garage, or a multi-million dollar company, **** happens.

So either they release the errata and people complain about having it, or they don't release it and people complain about things that need to be errata'd. There is basically no world in which something is released without any bugs. 

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3 minutes ago, Karol said:

But if someone doesn't have a smart phone and bought a book they are in a bad situation, and its is not like books are cheaper then downloading a scan of the rules illegally.

You can print out the changed warscrolls. 
The scrolls itself are also the smallest part of a Battletome next to the point costs. You still have the artwork, background stuff, allegiance abilities, etc. 
You can even just put a post-it in your book. Thats how I did it for the Kharadron changes (besides the Thunderer change, but I use Aetherrifle only so there wasn't much of a change for me)

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3 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Literally nothing in the world is released into the wild in a perfect shape. No video game (multiplayer esport nor single player story game), no physical product, no tabletop game. Just look at something like LoL or Overwatch or SC2 or DOTA, which have massive playerbases and large balance teams dedicated to fixing things - they've gone years with patches and changes and updates. 

If you're expecting perfection out of literally anything, especially a highly customizable multiplayer game with lots of options and variables, then you're always going to be disappointed. The 40k and AoS books released lately have been heads and shoulders better than they have in the past, and Shadespire needing one or two tweaks is basically nothing.

There is a distinct difference between a software update and a 100something page book that consists of 50% false information after a week.

You cannot ignore the format of a medium and its issues. If an ability in a game changes, the tooltip will reflect that and there will be a smooth transition for users. Ability and text will always align with each other and new users are not gonna learn false information (considering the code-monkey doesn't forget to change the appropriate string). It's not that easy with armybooks, imagine this: new player drops 20 bucks on it right away, and learns after his first few games that he's playing wrong despite having read the whole thing. He just spent the equivalent of 5 kebabs for some colored pages, and outdated information.

Personally, I don't care about this too much and I'm pro-regular-FAQ-updates , but I know players that dropped 40k because of this and I can understand their reasoning. (GK Codex was a hard trigger for one of them)

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4 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Not as reliably as throwing max dice at  a super charged Purple Sun and hoping you rolled a 2 6's did.... 

Ah, I miss those days. Those spells were the counter to hordes, which were the counter to big nasty heroes.

It was a finely balanced system where stuff died in droves but was still fun.

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In the Summoning article they mentioned that Slann Starmasters (specifically, which would have excluded Lord Kroak) and Saurus Astrolith Bearers (AND, not OR) could perform rituals to summon. This graphic opens up all kinds of new possibilities if both it and the article are accurate.

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12 minutes ago, Requizen said:

And I think the point you're missing is that it's all but impossible to put out something that won't need errata. Something is always, always going to get overlooked. It doesn't matter if you're a 5 man team working out of a garage, or a multi-million dollar company, **** happens.

So either they release the errata and people complain about having it, or they don't release it and people complain about things that need to be errata'd. There is basically no world in which something is released without any bugs. 

I think what others try to say that the something in case of Shadespire is a very big something. In MtG it is one thing if one or two cards get changed in a block, it is completlly a different thing when you have to carry a book of  errata to know how something works. FAQ are good, because after reading them people stuff should be cleared up, and one should know how a card works. It is a completly different pair of shoes, if the cards or battletomes are changed. Lets say someone doesn't own the expansion set the cards you play comes from, he wants to look at it and you tell him that the wording is different. On the next card too. It gets very confusing fast, not to mention that it opens the door to cheaters.

It is one thing to get Witcher 3 type of bugs day one, and something like Batman Arkham kight.

 

16 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

The scrolls itself are also the smallest part of a Battletome next to the point costs. You still have the artwork, background stuff, allegiance abilities, etc. 

But those things aren't relevant to the actual game. Its like saying a car without an engine is great too, because it has nice paint.

 

17 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

You can even just put a post-it in your book. Thats how I did it for the Kharadron changes (besides the Thunderer change, but I use Aetherrifle only so there wasn't much of a change for me)

how do you make people, and I swear to God am not trolling , this is a legit anwser, as am having the same problems with my battle tome, believe that the printed stuff was not changed in your advantage? if it were too much of a problem, and to avoid off topic could you PM maybe?

 

13 minutes ago, Xasz said:

He just spent the equivalent of 5 kebabs for some colored pages, and outdated information.

They must put gold in kebabs your country, if 5 equal a battle tome :D

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14 minutes ago, Xasz said:

There is a distinct difference between a software update and a 100something page book that consists of 50% false information after a week.

You cannot ignore the format of a medium and its issues. If an ability in a game changes, the tooltip will reflect that and there will be a smooth transition for users. Ability and text will always align with each other and new users are not gonna learn false information (considering the code-monkey doesn't forget to change the appropriate string). It's not that easy with armybooks, imagine this: new player drops 20 bucks on it right away, and learns after his first few games that he's playing wrong despite having read the whole thing. He just spent the equivalent of 5 kebabs for some colored pages, and outdated information.

Personally, I don't care about this too much and I'm pro-regular-FAQ-updates , but I know players that dropped 40k because of this and I can understand their reasoning. (GK Codex was a hard trigger for one of them)

...want to try that again without hyperbole? What Codex or Battletome was half useless on release? I get that it can be upsetting to have some issues, but come on, what in recent memory was so bad that they had to essentially re-release the book? Most of the Erratas have been like 2-4 changes at the most.

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Haven't kept up with this thread, but on the subject of printed rules going out of date, in the massive sea of great stuff GW has been doing, one thing that bothers me is still  selling products like the grand alliance books. I think it is fairly egregious to keep those on the shelves when they are full of completely wrong information at this point.

I think most rules should go 100% digital. Overwriting printed products turns those awesome publications into worthless items. The difficulty is it certainly reduces interest in buying physical books. But hopefully they could think of a way to entice people enough besides the rules. 

It's also not clear where errata is or when to look for it. It's a massive chore to go through that stuff and casual players don't even know it exists. You shouldn't be expected to need an errata if you're paying full price for a new book from the store.

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3 minutes ago, TheWilddog said:

This info graphic is up on FB about summoning. Has me excited about my FEC.

89E82F78-A40C-4D51-861C-20B15E2281BF.jpeg

I figured skaven would be able to summon verminlords being demons and all, but I'm surprised by the clanrat thing.

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2 minutes ago, Karol said:

I think what others try to say that the something in case of Shadespire is a very big something. In MtG it is one thing if one or two cards get changed in a block, it is completlly a different thing when you have to carry a book of  errata to know how something works. FAQ are good, because after reading them people stuff should be cleared up, and one should know how a card works. It is a completly different pair of shoes, if the cards or battletomes are changed. Lets say someone doesn't own the expansion set the cards you play comes from, he wants to look at it and you tell him that the wording is different. On the next card too. It gets very confusing fast, not to mention that it opens the door to cheaters.

...Except no card text has been changed except for Relics. All FAQs in the document right now are just clarifications that you can easily get if you read the rules for more than 10 minutes. They're mostly "what's the difference between an Activation and an Action?" type things, which aren't really erratas so much as "Well, read the rules, but we'll answer here anyway". Other than Relics, I don't think there's a single card that's been changed.

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2 minutes ago, Karol said:

how do you make people, and I swear to God am not trolling , this is a legit anwser, as am having the same problems with my battle tome, believe that the printed stuff was not changed in your advantage? if it were too much of a problem, and to avoid off topic could you PM maybe?

 

They must put gold in kebabs your country, if 5 equal a battle tome :D

1. Thats not a problem. People almost never look at my battletome. And when they do just to see what a specific rule does. Never for to-hit or damage values. There is enough trust in my gaming circle, also people will just look at the warscroll themselves afterwards. 

2. No, thats not even an exaggeration. One Döner Kebab is 4€-4,50€ and a Battletome costs 20-25€. 

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Just now, Twitch of Izalith said:

Sales of Chaos Spawn are about to go up

Transforming costing reinforcement points was my biggest beef with the old system. Happy to see some chaos lords going daemon price of chaos spawn, even for my opponent.

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3 minutes ago, bsharitt said:

I figured skaven would be able to summon verminlords being demons and all, but I'm surprised by the clanrat thing.

I thought the rats might get a little summoning love.  However, this looks restricted to the Dreaded 13th spell. I thought they might give them a summonable like mechanic.

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14 minutes ago, Requizen said:

...want to try that again without hyperbole? What Codex or Battletome was half useless on release? I get that it can be upsetting to have some issues, but come on, what in recent memory was so bad that they had to essentially re-release the book? Most of the Erratas have been like 2-4 changes at the most.

KO battletome is pretty outdated. I've seen people in the Lets chat:KO call the errata "our real battletome"

 

Only to stay on topic, tho. I'd buy the book 10 times only for artwork and fluff. The rules you can easily find online.

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