The end of compendium (finally?)

[hughwyeth]

10 hours ago, VBS said:

Also random thought I got today, as I see a lot of references to it, with this Legends thing for example. Is there really a perception that there are three ways to play? As in: they are distinct and we pick one of them when playing a game? I always that such concept in the GHB was nonsense, as you can make a narrative scenario that works with match play rules or rather go more in open style. I mean, they all mix and blend together and don't necessarily exclude each other in the sense that you have three ways to play, so please pick one.

I always see it as strict matched play or not. There's only 6 scenarios for matched play and whilst they are a nice challenge to play, the open play/narrative play scenarios offer a lot more variety. I don't see narrative/open as distinct. 

[EMMachine]

Also random thought I got today, as I see a lot of references to it, with this Legends thing for example. Is there really a perception that there are three ways to play? As in: they are distinct and we pick one of them when playing a game? I always that such concept in the GHB was nonsense, as you can make a narrative scenario that works with match play rules or rather go more in open style. I mean, they all mix and blend together and don't necessarily exclude each other in the sense that you have three ways to play, so please pick one.

The lines between the playstyles aren't really thick, but we see that some types to play are connected to a certain type.

Open Play: no or less Restrictions (only using rules, Hints & Tipps and Warscrolls), Open War Cards, Multiplayer like Coalition of Death and Triumpf and Treachery!

Narrative Play: Siege Battles, Path to Glory (the story created by the games is in Focus), often attacker/defender Scenario

Matched Play: Most Restrictions, both players have the same goals in their mission.

Beside for Tournaments most of the time it will be something custom and Rules of Matched Play will find there way into a open or Narrative Play setting, or rules of an Open Play connected ruleset will find it's way to Narrative Play (mostly Multiplayer, I think). Most diffence between the three should be the mindset. From just spending some time with friends (open), crafting some narrative for your army (narrative) or showing that you are the best player (matched play)

18 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

By all the gods, Poland sounds like a miserable place to play Warhammz.

I have the same feeling (even I don't play much). And strangly your Optimus Prime Avatar is quite fitting to the text. ?

 

2 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

I always see it as strict matched play or not. There's only 6 scenarios for matched play and whilst they are a nice challenge to play, the open play/narrative play scenarios offer a lot more variety. I don't see narrative/open as distinct. 

Make it 12 when you count the old scenarios of the first Generals Handbook and maybe 18 when Generals Handbook 2018 cames out. Even if Tournaments will mostly use the actual 6.

 

[stato]

11 hours ago, Karol said:

In Poland this is exactly the way people play. 100% of times matched played. 2000pts, using the latest tournament FAQ or rules pack. All the "talk" is what scenario is being played, but that kind of is already playing the game.  If you don't know or don't like the person your playing, the talking could be limited to an hour of strickt game talk. In fact in a lot of stores they don't like if people talk, because it either ends with people insulting each other over politics or sport, or using language not fit for under 18 year olds in the store. And there is very few things that can close a store faster, then an angry mother.

I think this seems to a be a big issue for many who are posting, their countries or regional culture leads towards competitive approach.  What you have to remember though is the game is made by (mostly) british people, a lot of whom have been with the company a long time, and the culture here is generally much more open and relaxed (in gaming terms at least).  You just have to watch Warhammer TV to see the approach of most of the presenters and the staff guests they have on the shows.  They all love a good competitive game but they equally love just playing the games and having a fun time, following the rules to the letter or winning at all cost is often put aside for the sake of doing some crazy fun thing. 

[Dragobeth]

That's so different to my area... here we play sometimes with matched play rules & points but half of the time we play open/narrative (In both cases we use open war cards just becouse we like it)

It's all about what the local players like I suppose, here we have fun just playing so wining is just a secondary thing but I know there are other places where people have fun by wining or by calculating tournament tier lists, different tastes, all valid of course. 

The problem of Open that's usually bring up is "What if someone has 4k points and you just have 1k" can be easily solved by talking with the other player (Some weeks ago a new player came in with some models and he has no problem finding a game with someone willing to adapt to him, one game I even let him my Dread Saurian so he could have some help agaisnt other player). The problem comes when you can't talk with the other player becouse you don't like him or in your local area that's not normal like you said, one could say "welp, don't play with him" but when all your local players are like that your are in a bad position and I really feel sorry for you.

In the end it's about how is your local gaming community, sometimes you have luck and other...not at all.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I’ve got 4500 pts of Orruks fully painted and based but there’s no way I’d be transporting them to a game I ain’t carrying all that around. I think folks may worry a bit too much about that sort of what if. A bit like the old “well if I can take 100 models what’s stopping me taking 100 Bloodthirsters?”  I’d suggest the £7000 and having to build, paint, store and transport 100 Bloodthirsters. Just because something is theoretically possible does mean it’s a practical possibility  (nod to 30K Ultramarines fans) 

This also presupposes that every one is a douche and they aren’t. Crikey having a browse of the media available of even top tournament players shows there’s stuff they won’t do or make choices based on what they like rather than what’s necessarily the most overpowered. 

Also quite a few narrative and open Battleplans have moderating ,if not balancing, mechanics to prevent the worst excesses. Also just because some silliness is really good for one scenario doesn’t mean it’s any good in another. 

[Karol]

1 hour ago, stato said:

I think this seems to a be a big issue for many who are posting, their countries or regional culture leads towards competitive approach.  What you have to remember though is the game is made by (mostly) british people, a lot of whom have been with the company a long time, and the culture here is generally much more open and relaxed (in gaming terms at least).  You just have to watch Warhammer TV to see the approach of most of the presenters and the staff guests they have on the shows.  They all love a good competitive game but they equally love just playing the games and having a fun time, following the rules to the letter or winning at all cost is often put aside for the sake of doing some crazy fun thing. 

I actually lived in britain for almost 2 years with my parents, and with the little life expiriance I have, I must say I have never seen a more class divided, no fun allowed, everything is banned and you can't do it, in my entire life. London is worse then Krakow, and Krakow is known here as the city of knifes, because it is divded in to two halfs "ruled" by two hooligan groups, which are the only two in the entire country that did not sign up the no sharp weapons allowed in hooligan fights. So I don't really this argument, that it is suppose to be fun, because it is british. I also don't really understand why there is strange divide being made between fun and competition. As if somehow winning was unfun and bad. If anything winning is more fun, specially if you win high. Isn't britain like the birth place of football?

[Orsino]

I wonder how many new players like me made the mistake of buying into one of the smaller factions based on the compendium units,  only for them to now be taken away.

I feel like GW makes it difficult to get into AoS unless you want to play Stormcast/the most recently released faction. 

Someone looking to start a new army finds themselves engaged in this odd guessing game where you have to try and predict whether the faction you like will be scrapped or rendered unplayable down the line and whether the units that are legal this week will still be legal next week. And if you guess wrong you can waste a lot of time and money. It's pretty off-putting.

[hughwyeth]

10 minutes ago, Karol said:

I actually lived in britain for almost 2 years with my parents, and with the little life expiriance I have, I must say I have never seen a more class divided, no fun allowed, everything is banned and you can't do it, in my entire life. London is worse then Krakow, and Krakow is known here as the city of knifes, because it is divded in to two halfs "ruled" by two hooligan groups, which are the only two in the entire country that did not sign up the no sharp weapons allowed in hooligan fights. So I don't really this argument, that it is suppose to be fun, because it is british. I also don't really understand why there is strange divide being made between fun and competition. As if somehow winning was unfun and bad. If anything winning is more fun, specially if you win high. Isn't britain like the birth place of football?

I've experienced what you describe with 40k, which is why I don't really play it. AoS has some of that, but overwhelmingly I've had really nice, relaxed, fun games. It's impossible to make generalisations really. Whilst the local 40k scene for me is unpainted power lists, the AoS scene is filled with carefully painted, beautiful and interesting forces, zero power lists. It may be the opposite in another local scene.

[Ollie Grimwood]

15 minutes ago, Karol said:

I actually lived in britain for almost 2 years with my parents, and with the little life expiriance I have, I must say I have never seen a more class divided, no fun allowed, everything is banned and you can't do it, in my entire life. London is worse then Krakow, and Krakow is known here as the city of knifes, because it is divded in to two halfs "ruled" by two hooligan groups, which are the only two in the entire country that did not sign up the no sharp weapons allowed in hooligan fights. So I don't really this argument, that it is suppose to be fun, because it is british. I also don't really understand why there is strange divide being made between fun and competition. As if somehow winning was unfun and bad. If anything winning is more fun, specially if you win high. Isn't britain like the birth place of football?

But it is also the Birthplace of Cricket a game that lasts for 5 days and still not have a winner. 

Its about the journey not the result. 

[Karol]

8 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

But it is also the Birthplace of Cricket a game that lasts for 5 days and still not have a winner. 

Its about the journey not the result. 

The fun travia, In Poland we had a game that was exactly like cricket in the XVI century. You had two posts, the running, the ball, the teams etc. The only difference was that in our version which, I hope no one gets offended here, was called "Douchbag" aka Palant in Polish, you scored extra points if you hit the opposing team members player and he fall to the ground, it even had extra points for making multiplyers for making more then one dude go down at the same time. Only place that was off limits was the right hand and the groin, everything else was free game to hit.  And balls well cloth, with stuffing and a wooden core.
 

Quote

Whilst the local 40k scene for me is unpainted power lists, the AoS scene is filled with carefully painted, beautiful and interesting forces, zero power lists. It may be the opposite in another local scene. 

 

That is true, most warhammer lists I have seen had 0 painted models in them. while with AoS people actually not just try to paing, but do it good. Here it is also seen as an escape gaming system for more ,and I know this is going to sound unbelivable considering the other stuff I posted, painting and casual players. And it is true that some of the armies look really stunning, non of the spry it silver and wash it black and army done stuff.

[Gecktron]

11 minutes ago, Orsino said:

I wonder how many new players like me made the mistake of buying into one of the smaller factions based on the compendium units,  only for them to now be taken away.

I feel like GW makes it difficult to get into AoS unless you want to play Stormcast/the most recently released faction. 

Someone looking to start a new army finds themselves engaged in this odd guessing game where you have to try and predict whether the faction you like will be scrapped or rendered unplayable down the line and whether the units that are legal this week will still be legal next week. And if you guess wrong you can waste a lot of time and money. It's pretty off-putting.

No model thats sold for Age of Sigmar has lost its points or got scrapped. Every unit included in the Grand Alliance Books is still playable. 
Sure, nobody knows when a faction will get an update but no Age of Sigmar faction has been scrapped and we have no reason to believe that this will happen in the mid-to-near future. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

17 minutes ago, Karol said:

The fun travia, In Poland we had a game that was exactly like cricket in the XVI century. You had two posts, the running, the ball, the teams etc. The only difference was that in our version which, I hope no one gets offended here, was called "Douchbag" aka Palant in Polish, you scored extra points if you hit the opposing team members player and he fall to the ground, it even had extra points for making multiplyers for making more then one dude go down at the same time. Only place that was off limits was the right hand and the groin, everything else was free game to hit.  And balls well cloth, with stuffing and a wooden core.
 

Sounds like fun 

[hughwyeth]

19 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

No model thats sold for Age of Sigmar has lost its points or got scrapped. Every unit included in the Grand Alliance Books is still playable. 
Sure, nobody knows when a faction will get an update but no Age of Sigmar faction has been scrapped and we have no reason to believe that this will happen in the mid-to-near future. 

I never understand people skipping the painting/modelling aspect of the hobby. This stuff is so eye-wateringly, butt-clenchingly expensive that to skip 80% of the hobby to get to the game is missing out a huge part of the hobby. £30 for 10 troops seems way too expensive if you're just gonna spray them one colour and then get them to the tabletop.

[Karol]

14 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

I never understand people skipping the painting/modelling aspect of the hobby. This stuff is so eye-wateringly, butt-clenchingly expensive that to skip 80% of the hobby to get to the game is missing out a huge part of the hobby. £30 for 10 troops seems way too expensive if you're just gonna spray them one colour and then get them to the tabletop.

Am not sure painting makes up 80% of the hobby for everyone. If people here could play with just paper cut outs they totally would. You really have to be in to painting and like it, or be forced for it to take up so much of hobby time.

[Mcthew]

Having read all this, and I can see where the frustration lies, when you are only limited to playing points/matched play games in your area, and gaming is the key part to your hobby. It's a gaming problem, fuelled by GW in some respects as they've nurtured this 'points mean battles' culture to get more money out of the army builders.

Personally, I can't see any reason not to have other legacy armies in AoS Matched Play as they ported many over already. If GW used their imagination they could still do so, and release cool models to compliment them through Forge World. I'm sure a Tomb Kings general would jump at the chance for a god-like model, such as a Pharaoh-Nagash! It feels a little short-sighted to me.

(Or maybe this is what's planned and we need to be patient? ?)

But if they can't do something like that, then why not make Narrative and Open Play games more of a focus? I'm not talking about changing rules, but releasing campaigns along the lines of the Realm Gates books (but perhaps with a stronger narrative). I recall Blood Bath at Orcs Drift, and the Tragedy of McDeath, being fantastic to play, and the starter battle plans in Thunder and Blood and Blightwar were pretty good too. More of that, with more of a progressive story would be a good fusion of both the good aspects of D&D and the gaming of AoS. And if they could use legacy armies in these battle-plans, even better. A Warhammer Legends narrative campaign would be awesome.

So, must agree, GW really should sort this out. It is not just a question of making money, but loyalty. After the army builders have moved on, the new blood is only nurtured through parents who believe there is value in this hobby. If GW have a track record of scrapping armies to be used in competitive games, then why would parents encourage it? Aren't there plenty more hobbies to spend (waste) money on? 

And if GW's focus is not on Matched Play, they need to show that in the products they release, such as more Open Play and Narrative tools.

I know it looks like GW want to have their cake and eat it too, but then so do many business models. So far it's worked for GW. Though at some point all the cake gets eaten and someone needs to pick up the tab.

I hope there'll be enough loyalists around who will do that, or it could spell trouble for GW...

[chord]

14 hours ago, VBS said:

With this I mean that narrative is possible using match play rules (just forge a narrative behind, and easily maintaine balanced rules) or have an open game where you just pick certain rules like mini points while adding or removing other aspects (so not  necessarily fully match play).

 

The best narrative battleplans do not have each side on equal footing...and that's what makes them great.

[Naflem]

17 hours ago, Karol said:

In Poland this is exactly the way people play. 100% of times matched played. 2000pts, using the latest tournament FAQ or rules pack. All the "talk" is what scenario is being played, but that kind of is already playing the game.  If you don't know or don't like the person your playing, the talking could be limited to an hour of strickt game talk. In fact in a lot of stores they don't like if people talk, because it either ends with people insulting each other over politics or sport, or using language not fit for under 18 year olds in the store. And there is very few things that can close a store faster, then an angry mother.

It's the same in my region of America as well, albeit with a bit more variance on the points values (like 1,500 is pretty popular here); and I mean it's that way to the degree that when anyone on this points out there are two other ways to play as a defense to some action GW is taking that impacts matched play, I assume they're trolling, because in my experience there is definitely not (but reading this thread it does seem like some of that is regional differences).  I'll also say, I don't think it's a hyper-competitive thing here, it's a desire to have a game that's fundamentally "fair" - which I think is understandable.  For a lot of people (especially with limited time), I'm sure it's not fun to devote 2-3 hours to a game and you realize that you never really had much of a chance to win because of a disparity in the balance what the players brought to the tables.       

[Enochi]

Going to toss in my 2 cents. 

In my area we do rarely play without points.... but only in path to glory and guess who is not listed in that? None of the old factions. Every other time its points. When we walk into the store looking for a game the 1st two sentences go something like this. "Want to play a game?" "Sure, What points?".

Now I know I'm a little salty simply because I JUST got my Reaper Bolt Throwers about a week or two ago and got a grand total of 2 games with them before they got pulled so its a bit frustrating. Because my group only plays pick-up games with points I never get to use them again.

Now you say "Well just ask for permission to use them, using the old points." All fine and dandy but here is the thing. When you are doing that you are basically asking for an "advantage" over an opponent and for at least me who likes competitive games it feels like I am almost cheating. This is in addition to just extra hassle and having to have a back-up list in case they say "No". If the unit you take over-preforms it can leave bad tastes in your opponent's mouth.

I might ramble some more on the topic later but have limited time at the moment.

[Nin Win]

I think many people jump to the conclusion that matched play is the vast majority of all play when it's probably only fair to say the majority of easily observable play.  My own group has never had a game of matched play happen at our monthly club meetings, ever.  The people who play tournament type games at the local store have a vague inkling that there's a couple guys who meet somewhere and do strange scenarios, but they have no idea it's a totally packed multipurpose room and we're trying to figure out whether we're going to need to find a different space.

The guy who runs the nearest store knows we exist.  As does the organizer of the largest tournments in the area.  As does GW.  Because we told them.  Apparently that's rare.  Most small groups of gamers that do things on the kitchen table or whatever don't involve themselves in the larger public community. 

For us, the issue is small children.  We're not going to invite a stranger into our homes.  They can come to the club meeting though and if they turn out to be reasonable people, then they can come to the other events in people's homes.  If we didn't have the monthly meeting in a more public venue, no one would know about us at all.  We'd be four or five smaller groups of 3-6 people each all playing at home and would have never come together as a union of kitchen table gamers.

I think GW knows matched play isn't as large as people think it is in terms of their total customer base.  They know people are using other decision making metrics when picking units every time someone buys a kit that people say is an awful choice for a list.  Since the new CEO came in, they've been doing large amounts of market research to find out what their customers want and have been very careful to appeal to a broad a range as possible.

[syph0n]

2 hours ago, Enochi said:

Going to toss in my 2 cents. 

In my area we do rarely play without points.... but only in path to glory and guess who is not listed in that? None of the old factions. Every other time its points. When we walk into the store looking for a game the 1st two sentences go something like this. "Want to play a game?" "Sure, What points?".

Now I know I'm a little salty simply because I JUST got my Reaper Bolt Throwers about a week or two ago and got a grand total of 2 games with them before they got pulled so its a bit frustrating. Because my group only plays pick-up games with points I never get to use them again.

Now you say "Well just ask for permission to use them, using the old points." All fine and dandy but here is the thing. When you are doing that you are basically asking for an "advantage" over an opponent and for at least me who likes competitive games it feels like I am almost cheating. This is in addition to just extra hassle and having to have a back-up list in case they say "No". If the unit you take over-preforms it can leave bad tastes in your opponent's mouth.

I might ramble some more on the topic later but have limited time at the moment.

I've stated my thoughts previous to this, but that's all you can do really. That, or say its a repeater bolt thrower instead, though I've no idea if it's as good as the reaper! 

 

[Orsino]

8 hours ago, Gecktron said:

No model thats sold for Age of Sigmar has lost its points or got scrapped. Every unit included in the Grand Alliance Books is still playable. 
Sure, nobody knows when a faction will get an update but no Age of Sigmar faction has been scrapped and we have no reason to believe that this will happen in the mid-to-near future. 

If you're new to the game and enjoy the hobby aspect you may spend a lot of time converting models to field compendium units, as I did. And GW continues to sell models for broken/unplayable factions as well as listing models in the GHB which they no longer sell. Let's take Swifthawk Reavers as an example, they're in GHB 2017, but GW doesn't sell them, they're tactically interesting and make Swifthawks playable, so shall I painstakingly convert some models to be Reavers or will they cease to be legal next week?

[Karol]

2 hours ago, Nin Win said:

I think GW knows matched play isn't as large as people think it is in terms of their total customer base.  They know people are using other decision making metrics when picking units every time someone buys a kit that people say is an awful choice for a list.  Since the new CEO came in, they've been doing large amounts of market research to find out what their customers want and have been very careful to appeal to a broad a range as possible.

I don't know what size people kitchen tables are, but they have to be huge for them to be able to play on them. Plus what do people do with families when they play, one would have to kick their mom and dad frorm the house, and siblings too, if they aren't in to gaming too? Clubs are nice, and I envy those places in the world when they exist, here the room rent is so high no gaming clubs exist and store are really small. So most people play at stores or durning tournament events.

[Skabnoze]

10 hours ago, stato said:

I think this seems to a be a big issue for many who are posting, their countries or regional culture leads towards competitive approach.  What you have to remember though is the game is made by (mostly) british people, a lot of whom have been with the company a long time, and the culture here is generally much more open and relaxed (in gaming terms at least).  You just have to watch Warhammer TV to see the approach of most of the presenters and the staff guests they have on the shows.  They all love a good competitive game but they equally love just playing the games and having a fun time, following the rules to the letter or winning at all cost is often put aside for the sake of doing some crazy fun thing. 

This is fair, but they grew to the point where their business has to be supported by international sales - that is not a thing to ignore.  Sure, they can ignore the various groups they are selling too but then they have to be willing to deal with possible shrinkage of global sales and the impact that will have on their company and the share-holders.

Once you take your company public you are no longer a little indie shop that can do as it pleases.

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, Naflem said:

It's the same in my region of America as well, albeit with a bit more variance on the points values (like 1,500 is pretty popular here); and I mean it's that way to the degree that when anyone on this points out there are two other ways to play as a defense to some action GW is taking that impacts matched play, I assume they're trolling, because in my experience there is definitely not (but reading this thread it does seem like some of that is regional differences).  I'll also say, I don't think it's a hyper-competitive thing here, it's a desire to have a game that's fundamentally "fair" - which I think is understandable.  For a lot of people (especially with limited time), I'm sure it's not fun to devote 2-3 hours to a game and you realize that you never really had much of a chance to win because of a disparity in the balance what the players brought to the tables.       

I have lived and travelled all over the US over the last few decades and I look into gaming wherever I go.  Since the early 90s the vast majority of gaming that I have seen (for most tabletop games - I play a lot) uses whatever organized rules a company provides for their games.  Whether that is points, tonnage, or whatever other system a game uses.  I have seen looser structures used, but that has always been a rarity and I mostly see that sort of thing in Garage or kitchen-table style games.  But most gaming in the US tends to take place at game stores - and those games are almost always using some sort of match-play organization.

[Naflem]

5 hours ago, Nin Win said:

I think many people jump to the conclusion that matched play is the vast majority of all play when it's probably only fair to say the majority of easily observable play.  My own group has never had a game of matched play happen at our monthly club meetings, ever.  The people who play tournament type games at the local store have a vague inkling that there's a couple guys who meet somewhere and do strange scenarios, but they have no idea it's a totally packed multipurpose room and we're trying to figure out whether we're going to need to find a different space.

The guy who runs the nearest store knows we exist.  As does the organizer of the largest tournments in the area.  As does GW.  Because we told them.  Apparently that's rare.  Most small groups of gamers that do things on the kitchen table or whatever don't involve themselves in the larger public community. 

For us, the issue is small children.  We're not going to invite a stranger into our homes.  They can come to the club meeting though and if they turn out to be reasonable people, then they can come to the other events in people's homes.  If we didn't have the monthly meeting in a more public venue, no one would know about us at all.  We'd be four or five smaller groups of 3-6 people each all playing at home and would have never come together as a union of kitchen table gamers.

I think GW knows matched play isn't as large as people think it is in terms of their total customer base.  They know people are using other decision making metrics when picking units every time someone buys a kit that people say is an awful choice for a list.  Since the new CEO came in, they've been doing large amounts of market research to find out what their customers want and have been very careful to appeal to a broad a range as possible. 

I play a lot of "unobservable" warhammer at kitchen tables* too, and while I'd certainly be willing to play something else, it's nearly all pointed (or sometimes PoE with adjustments to make it more balanced/quasi-pointed).

 

*ok, mostly pool tables.