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Forget Idoneth Deepkin has anyone checked out Battletome Dark Elves for Warhammer Legends yet?

I couldn't be happier to see sets of official rules coming out for WFB armies and its a bonus that they started with the Druchii :D

The rules are usual GW hit and miss but at first glance they look pretty good and I think the army will play like a Dark Elf Army again.

The Rules for Malekith and Morathi are pretty good - Malekith has a spell which is actually scary (same rules at bloodwrack stare shooting attack but 18" range) and Hellebron gets unique rules instead of just copying over the Death Hag or Slaughter Queen from DoK.

Malus Darkblade gets some fluffy rules for being possesed by Tz'arkan which is cool, Lokhir Fellheart is in there, All good stuff for dark elf fans :)

My main dissapointment was the sorceresses. They all get a new ability - Hekarti's blessing - which allows them to slay a friendly model within 3" for +2 to cast but they all get the same spell!! word of pain. Even in the compendium the sorceress on cold one or pegasus got a different spell (though chillwind was a BAD spell at least it was variety!) Now they all have the same spell if they are on foot, riding a cold one, pegasus or black dragon. I was really hoping each Legends army would come with some AoS versions of the WFB spell lores and artifacts + some allegiance abilities but I guess that was asking a bit much. 

Quite a few of the units are subtley improved from their AoS counterparts in Darkling covens etc. Some are just flat out better! Some highlights for me are:

Shadowblade - works how an assassin should work and actually has a good chance to take someone out when he reveals himself! Even the standard assassin is better than the shadowblade version  - gaining -1 rend and D3 damage all the time not just against characters.

Cold one Knights - actualy get rend when they charge as well as +1 to wound and +1 damage (a small change I know but they are so useless in Order Serpentis)

Black Guard - Do 2 damage which makes them AWESOME and only get their re-rolls to hit if Malekith is on the table which is a nice narrative addition.

Executioners - hit on 4+ instead of 3+ BUT get -2 rend and 2 damage instead of no rend and one damage - I know which I prefer!

Its also fair to mention that some of the more core units are a little worse than the Mortal Realms equivalent - losing weapons, special abilities and unit size bonuses.

Overall though all the units look like they will behave the way you would want them to on the tabletop - apart from the sorceresses who are a bit weak still but you have Malekith and Morathi for magical offence and can take a couple of others for Mystic shields etc - and word of pain is a good spell particularly in narrative when you can cast it multiple times.

I can't wait to get a game with this army. I can honestly say i'm more excited about it than I have been for any of the recent battletomes which have all been excellent.

I might have a go at putting some points values together for them because we all like points don't we? Even for friendly/narrative games :) I hope the community will come together to create resources for all the Warhammer Legends armies as they get released.

So what's everyone else's thoughts? Did anyone pick up any legendary dark elves in the pre-order? I was stoked to see Mengils Manflayers so had to buy them even though I already blew my hobby budget on a Wraithknight this month.

What do people think about Legends in general and will you be playing it going forward? Personally I will be playing these games more than I will play with Mortal Realms factions if I can.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I don't know anyone who plays without points, but, as a Dark Elf guy (my 2nd love) the warscrolls do admittedly look cool.

However, if my TK (my 1st love) get sucked into this - and subsequently removed from compendium matched play - my feelings towards G-Dubya will end up down towards the bottom of Skarbrand's damage table.

A compromise would be to provide points that are incompatable with regular AoS. It's not as though there will be much of a shifting meta once all the WHFB armies have been released, and I can't see it being played ultra-competitavely anyway. GW can just do the points once, and pretty much call it quits (aside from altering some glaring miss-steps every now-and-then).

I would guess that significantly more than half of the responses I have seen to this so far - and this is on mostly GW-friendly channels - have been about the lack of points... and not in a good way.

Edited by Kyriakin

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2 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

I don't know anyone who plays without points, but, as a Dark Elf guy (my 2nd love) the warscrolls do admittedly look cool.

We're out here!  In fact our store has had a monthly Open Play event without points for a couple years.   

I think Warhammer Legends is a marvelous idea and as a Tomb Kings player myself I'm looking forward to the update.  I understand why there are no points.  It is absolutely vital that GW avoid promoting 2nd hand sales of models they don't produce while not alienating players.  This is a fine compromise and as the OP suggested, the community will make points for it soon enough.  Whether those points are accepted for major tournaments(they won't be) is something to worry about later.

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58 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

My main dissapointment was the sorceresses. They all get a new ability - Hekarti's blessing - which allows them to slay a friendly model within 3" for +2 to cast but they all get the same spell!! word of pain. Even in the compendium the sorceress on cold one or pegasus got a different spell (though chillwind was a BAD spell at least it was variety!) Now they all have the same spell if they are on foot, riding a cold one, pegasus or black dragon. I was really hoping each Legends army would come with some AoS versions of the WFB spell lores and artifacts + some allegiance abilities but I guess that was asking a bit much. 

I noticed that and I don't worry too much about it. I think the Word of Pain was the best spell available to the sorceresses in the 2015 compendium, but only the sorceress on foot could have it. The other spells (from the sorceress on cold one and the one on black dragon) were so-so in my opinion, especially compared to the Magic Bolt. Now remember that this new compendium is meant for Open & Narrative Play, so the rules of 1 don't apply. Therefore a dark elf player can cast several Word of Pain/Magic Bolt per turn.

I know you'd like more variety in the magic spells, but personally I prefer to keep rules simple like they were at the beginning of AoS. So i'm not particularly disappointed with the sorceresses having the same spell. However I am slightly disappointed with the new corsairs warscroll.

In the new compendium, the corsairs have only one melee weapon (dark elf hand weapon) whereas the scourge privateers have 2 melee weapons (vicious blade & wicked cutlass) with different stats. Now I'm all for simpler rules and I approve the fusing of the 2 weapons into one. It makes the dice roll smoothier in the combat phase.
But if you remember well, the corsairs can have 1 melee weapon and a reapeater handbow OR 2 melee weapons. If they choose the first configuration, they can obviously shoot and then fight in combat, which is neat. But what if you choose the 2 melee weapons configuration? Do you get more attacks? An improved To-Hit stat? Nope. You get to re-roll the To-Hit results of 1, which is a little "weak". And to add with that, if you use the command ability of the Black Ark Fleetmater on them, they get to re-roll all failed To-Hit rolls anyway... So as a result the corsairs with a repeater handbow are automatically preferable to those with 2 hand weapons...

So far this is my only disappointment with the new compendium: there is almost no reason (or none I can see at the moment) to take corsairs with 2 hand weapons over corsairs with handow.

Edit: oh and I'm also disappointed that the Black Ark Fleemaster's command ability only works for the combat phase (therefore it doesn't help the corsairs to shoot better). Appart from those 2 problems, I think the Dark Elf compendium really got better compared to the 2015 version.

Edited by The Golem

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22 minutes ago, Kamose said:

We're out here!  In fact our store has had a monthly Open Play event without points for a couple years.   

I think Warhammer Legends is a marvelous idea and as a Tomb Kings player myself I'm looking forward to the update.  

I'm with you. I prefer Open Play, so lack of points is no biggie. It would be marvelous if they would just publish Tyler's TK book as the official one, even if slimmed down into a Legends format. His work was really nice.

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hmmm in the azyr app they have points no? 

GW only said about they aren't going to get an anual point update. They don't saied  nothing about don't having points.

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I really like matched play and find it very useful for tournament / organized play, and quite a necessity for easy "pick up" games with strangers. 

But I also love to play narrative (without points) or "random" with the Open war cards. It's true that it's mainly with friends that I know well that this is possible.

I still don't understand why GW didn't republish, at the launch of AOS, or better, at the GHB 2016 release, a reworked version of their old WD articles about "no points" games, from Jervis Johnson and Nigel Stillman for example. It would have shown the possibilies of non point games, and the philosophy of such games, just like they did with the 40k 8th Designer FAQ. 

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I wonder if some brets and TKs will resurface for a final last chance to buy (and sell out in ten minutes flat!)?

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Its encouraging that the new resource is a complete Dark Elves Compendium, and not just stats for the specific models they are re-releasing. If they hope to do a similar compendium for each of the old factions then the question becomes which models they are most likely to release along side it.

Is there any sort of definitive list of which models were actually discontinued during the End Times? I know what vanished from the factions I play (I just managed to complete my Tomb Kings army in time!) However, i'm not familiar enough with many of the other armies to know (without painstakingly cross referencing their old army books with the current catalogue at least!)

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2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I'm with you. I prefer Open Play, so lack of points is no biggie. It would be marvelous if they would just publish Tyler's TK book as the official one, even if slimmed down into a Legends format. His work was really nice.

That is some really fine work he did. Whenever I play at my FLGS with the TK that's what I use!

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I really think the massive outcry over the lack of a points system when AoS came out was more of a failing of the community rather than GW. 

We criticised them for expecting US to be able to agree on a balanced army composition for 2 armies in a single game but we expect THEM to be able to balance all units in all armies in all battleplans for all games. 

Having said that I do enjoy the structure of a points system (or power levels or ranks or a force organisation chart or whatever) so that I can plan armies without having a conversation first. List writing (or army building as I usually call it) is an enjoyable part of the hobby on its own.

I get why they have no AoS matched play points but I think it would be great to have Warhammer legends matched play points for evryone out there who is most comfortable with a points based system - which is probably the majority of gamers.

The Warhammer Fantasy setting is still massively popular - as sales of the Total War video game will testify - and just because the story of the world came to an end it doesn't mean you still can't use it for games. As a comparison you don't hear Bolt Action players moaning that world war 2 is over.

@The Golem I hear you on the Corsairs. There are some minor nerfs to a couple of other core units too but I think that's perfectly in keeping with writing AoS rules for an Old World Faction where the troops were more distinct from the elites (who all got better) Many factions in AoS are basically ALL elites so I really like this design. This is where having points would be great because you could be saying "ok they are not as good but they are cheap so I can take more of them" or similar.

Also agreed on the spells a gameplay perspective - multiple casts of Word of Pain could be very powerful.

I really hope they keep up the level of quality for the other factions - particularly the Tomb kings and Bretonians for the sake of all the fans of those armies. I guess it will depend on the level of sales and the feedback they get.

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Hopefully they release more armies soon as this is some of the best stuff they have given for a while. Waiting eagerly for the other elves and dwarfs. Also hopefully the blind Eltharion will be resold when they get to high elves. Have been sad for many years because I sold mine. 

 

It's also great that they say that the reason for intruducing these rules is because so many people wished for something like this in their survey. They listen to us! 

Edited by Jamopower
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Quick question regarding the Made to Order stuff... I just ordered the two cold one riders, and the delivery estimate was that they'd be dispatched within 35 days! Does anyone know how wide a margin they're giving there? Is there a chance it'll be dispatched in say, two weeks, since I'm ordering on the first day of the MtO, or is it pretty much guaranteed to not land until mid June? Asking because I ordered it to a London-based friend's address and he's coming to visit at the end of the month, hoping it can reach him in time.

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It took about a month for the Diaz Seekers of Slaanesh to arrive. Probably depends on the demand, but I guess it is quite high for this kind of offers. 

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So far useless. Probably will take ages for them to create full compendiums for all old-world factions - before that happens what can you do with one army compendium LOL.
Also without points or any army composition rules it does not make much sense - part of fun of Warhammer is to design your army & strategy. They already got smashed in the face when AOS was released like this, maybe they like it.

Just hope they wont release Bret & TK compendiums in this form any soon as 2 full armies will be wiped from matched play... not just few old heroes like in DE case.

 

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Aren't the Brets and TK already sort of wiped out of matched play due to their rules being so weak in comparison to their points costs and to the amount of special rules and synergies the new armies have? 

Warhammer games have indeed been always army building games, but everyone doesn't still build their armies on pure efficiency. Some people also enjoy building thematic collections and have suitably thematic battles with them.  This kind of rules are for them and they don't take anything out from the people that enjoy different kind of gaming. 

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28 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

Aren't the Brets and TK already sort of wiped out of matched play due to their rules being so weak in comparison to their points costs and to the amount of special rules and synergies the new armies have? 

No idea about TK. Brets are not top tier army, but you can make a fun playable rooster - if they make the new compendium I won't be able to play them anymore... T9A awaits probably as they didn't put bretonnia to some existing sub-faction.

Edited by Verengard

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13 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

However, if my TK (my 1st love) get sucked into this - and subsequently removed from compendium matched play - my feelings towards G-Dubya will end up down towards the bottom of Skarbrand's damage table.

First of all - respect. Tomb Kings (and Bretonnians) are up there with my favourite Warhammer armies. Sadly, maintaining an out-of-production army in matched play when the list of factions is currently so crazy large, over 20 for order alone not including compendium armies, is probably not reasonable. Either GW change their mind and make the miniatures for a Crimson Monarchy faction available (how amazing would that be!) or the Tomb Kings transition to Legends. I honestly can't see it any other way unfortunately.

Edited by Greyshadow
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2 hours ago, Jamopower said:

Aren't the Brets and TK already sort of wiped out of matched play due to their rules being so weak in comparison to their points costs and to the amount of special rules and synergies the new armies have? 

Warhammer games have indeed been always army building games, but everyone doesn't still build their armies on pure efficiency. Some people also enjoy building thematic collections and have suitably thematic battles with them.  This kind of rules are for them and they don't take anything out from the people that enjoy different kind of gaming. 

Technically Tomb kings are still kind of okay? They got demolished in the 2017 GHB but they were far and away the best army in the game at the time so even getting knocked down super hard they're still usable.

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TK warscrolls still have some useful and interesting synergies and abilities, but each individual unit is over-costed (with a few exceptions) at least 25%.

They are like a solid and fun 1500-point army, which is playing  against 2000-point armies - if that makes any sense.

Edited by Kyriakin

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I created an article at the Lexicanum that contains the info on Dark Elves Legends Compendium. This includes a list of warscrolls and in which faction of the Mortal Realms they can be used as well as those that can be classified as Legacy.  It also contains a brief history of the Compendiums for the Dark Elves.

Warhammer Legends Dark Elves Lexicanum article

If you have any suggestions or criticisms do tell me.

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The points gap is exactly what I meant. Even if the scrolls would have reasonable points costs, sticking into Bret or TK allegiance gives you very little in comparison to some of the new armies that get allegiance abilities, spells, artefacts, command traits, house traits and whatnot on top of regular synergies for free. Thus getting a fair fight between the armies will often lead to open/narrative gaming in any case. 

I believe that keeping the legends without points is a direct learning from the first GHB where the Tomb kings were as good as they were. I can imagine how many complaints they have got about them bring so good and not available to buy. 

Sometimes the economical realities just mean that something needs to be dropped from the catalogue. I would say that it is a huge favour that they still provide these, and the compendium rules before them, to give at least some options to use the old stuff. Especially as these are completely free. In addition to that, there are still also lots of other games where those models fit. Especially as the Brets fit to historicals in some degree, the horses are just ridiculously huge when ran together with actual historical models. 

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Still without points you cannot make any organized play. Imagine GW relese all compendiums for the Legends (hahahahaha 10 years later) and your local group want to make an event to play in old world. How you handle army composition? 

This just brings things back to 2k15 where GW got smashed in the face for what AoS was, also they said the dont want to add any points to their uber system... And what we have now? Points, army composition rules etc.

The DE Legends does not change much, 90% of the units were available in mini factions, so still can be played in matched. But if they do the same with TK and Brets they gonna get a ton of hate since that will erase 2 armies from matched play.

Another thing is if these scrolls even technically replace those from old compendiums with points?  If you check closer all units have their name changed, called Dark elf something while the ones from old compendium dont. 

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1 hour ago, Verengard said:

Still without points you cannot make any organized play. Imagine GW relese all compendiums for the Legends (hahahahaha 10 years later) and your local group want to make an event to play in old world. How you handle army composition? 

This just brings things back to 2k15 where GW got smashed in the face for what AoS was, also they said the dont want to add any points to their uber system... And what we have now? Points, army composition rules etc.

The DE Legends does not change much, 90% of the units were available in mini factions, so still can be played in matched. But if they do the same with TK and Brets they gonna get a ton of hate since that will erase 2 armies from matched play.

Another thing is if these scrolls even technically replace those from old compendiums with points?  If you check closer all units have their name changed, called Dark elf something while the ones from old compendium dont. 

How can this lead to GW "getting smashed in the face"? Legends ist about the out of production armies. They cant make any money out of this, which also means they cant lose any. This is to build good faith. 

Not giving points to these armies is only to limit their use in organized tournaments. You can always assinge them points yourself to use them in matched play against your friends. 

TK got nerfed because they were too good and people felt the need to pay a lot of money for some second hand stuff. To limit that, GW removed synergies, made them more expansive points wise, etc. Which made them boring. The compromise now is to give old armies the fun stuff but limit them to friendly games.

Edited by Gecktron
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