Battalions that recycle units in matched play

[Jamie Ferguson]

There are now a few warscroll battalions that enable you to return destroyed units to the table. I can't remember the specifics but there's an iron jaws one and there's certainly a couple in the Sylvaneth book. 

How do we treat this at an army building stage? Do we have to pay twice for a unit on the chance that it's destroyed? Is the points cost of the battalion itself enough to cover the cost? 

Im possibly getting confused with the rules for summoning but I've not got the handbook yet to be sure. 

[Nico]

The only honorable exception I can think of is Skarr Bloodwrath as it's just him coming back to life (cf. the Immortality Ring is clearly intended to work in matched play). I've never seen him on the table or in a list.

[BaldoBeardo]

OP was asking about recycling units, which does cost points. FWIW 'revive' isn't a good word to use in that context as it implies the unit is gone.

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[Nimbus]

Sorry to add to this already long thread but I thought I'd help clarify some information for anyone scrolling through looking for clear answers to this question. Ive attached a screenshot of a section from page 108 of the General's Handbook. Its pretty clear that reviving an already existing unit DOES NOT cost extra points

[teddet]

@daedalus81 - sadly, there's no way to get the ju-ju warpaint under 2000 points in any of the battalions (even the savage warclan).  So no-ones getting that in tournament play.  

 

 

[daedalus81]

25 minutes ago, teddet said:

What about the bonegrinz battalion from bonesplittas?  They only 'replace' units on a roll of a 6.  Seems like a pretty iffy thing to pay summoning points for, no?

Still the same.  The thing with that setup is it provides the ju-ju warpaint for your entire army if you so choose instead of just from the Savage Warclan scroll and a decent command trait upgrade. 

[Nico]

The only exceptions seem to be the same hero model coming back to life (because you're not adding a model that way), so that's the Ring of Immortality (which is deliberately included in matched play), certain Vampires, Tyrion and probably Skarr (never seen him used).

[teddet]

What about the bonegrinz battalion from bonesplittas?  They only 'replace' units on a roll of a 6.  Seems like a pretty iffy thing to pay summoning points for, no?

[GreatRedoubt]

You can just click 'sort by date' instead of 'sort by rating.'  

[thebouv]

14 hours ago, mmimzie said:

we could down and up vote things back into order if you'd like

Sweet. Let's send out a memo.

[mmimzie]

On 7/14/2016 at 10:34 AM, Dez said:

Those battalions are in matched play and have points.

It's not a new unit in the case of Ironjawz, it's bringing BACK a unit. So it's Reclycling as opposed to summoning, Think Green  So you don't need to pay the points in this case.

 

 

we could down and up vote things back into order if you'd like

[thebouv]

On 7/27/2016 at 8:43 AM, Metzombie said:

Because this question thread sort the post by the number of votes they got.

Weird. I think that is ... a poor decision. It's like the software wants to emulate post voting like in Reddit, but does it poorly by rearranging the conversation.

Oh well.

[Metzombie]

17 hours ago, thebouv said:

Also, why the hell is the thread out of order now with Dez's earlier statement now at the bottom? Now that Dez has the GHB, I think he now agrees.

Because this question thread sort the post by the number of votes they got.

[thebouv]

17 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

No.  There is replacing models and there is replacing units.  Significantly different.

I think you're misunderstanding. I'm in agreement with replacing units is the same as summoning units and requires points from the reinforcement pool.  Dez was somehow suggesting otherwise because the word "replace" is not the same as "summon". Yet the GHB specifically uses the word replace as well in the or clause.

I think we all understand that replacing models in already existing units (Reality Blinks, undead stuff, etc) does not pull from reinforcements, but creation of new units (blue horrors, ardfist battalion, Alariel making Treelords, etc) does pull from reinforcements.

Also, why the hell is the thread out of order now with Dez's earlier statement now at the bottom? Now that Dez has the GHB, I think he now agrees.

[daedalus81]

On 7/23/2016 at 11:20 PM, thebouv said:

Except the rule specifically points out "Sometimes a spell or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed."

Matching your wording exactly.

And needing to pull from Reinforcement Points just like summoning.

No.  There is replacing models and there is replacing units.  Significantly different.

[Dez]

Ok finally got the GBH, you definitely pay points...making Ardfist battalion pretty terrible.

[thebouv]

Except the rule specifically points out "Sometimes a spell or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed."

Matching your wording exactly.

And needing to pull from Reinforcement Points just like summoning.

[daedalus81]

There are plenty of abilities that don't use the word summon.  I think you're leaping through hoops for this one.

 

You are in effect applying two standards for things that are, in all facets, identical in function.

[Jamie Ferguson]

Looked at the handbook tonight at local shop and it actually looked pretty clear, it specifically mentions replaced units along with other reserves and summoning so you'll clearly have to pay for them through reserves. 

[Dez]

Weird that the posts are out of order now.

In the Ardboyz Battalion per the wording, the unit is being replaced not summoned. 

"You can replace any units in the battalion that have been wiped out. The replacement unit is identical to the unit that was destroyed"

 

I know I have fun finding little tricks and foofily worded things, but this is pretty clear imo. 

[daedalus81]

2 hours ago, Dez said:

Those battalions are in matched play and have points.

It's not a new unit in the case of Ironjawz, it's bringing BACK a unit. So it's Reclycling as opposed to summoning, Think Green  So you don't need to pay the points in this case.

There is no grounds for the interpretation that I can see.

[Andreas]

My thoughts.

The wording for the Sylvaneth formation and the Ironjawz are identical. The formation draws nerby tree-renevants/ardboys to the battle, when a unit is destroyed you can set up a replacement unit with the restriction that it must be identical to the destroyed unit.

I would argue that the formations draws NEW units to the battlefield from the reinforcement pool and do not resurrect fallen soldiers into existing units.

I think this is the most strait forward way to apply the rules but that doesnt mean I am right.

[Dez]

Those battalions are in matched play and have points.

It's not a new unit in the case of Ironjawz, it's bringing BACK a unit. So it's Reclycling as opposed to summoning, Think Green  So you don't need to pay the points in this case.

[mmimzie]

The hand book is pretty clear on you having to pay for anything that lets you replace or set up a new unit. So you do need to pay for these. 

[Shane]

There'll be a FAQ a week after the GH releases. Be sure to ask this question on the AoS Facebook page.

[daedalus81]

In that case if you don't have summon points set aside then you can't bring them back onto the table.  It'd make for a pretty good defensive force that was very focused on certain units, I think.  At least in theory.