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ianob

Ian Plays Death: Fundamentals (Death Article)

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 @Thanatos Ares Im the same, interesting points but some of the 'cons' i personally dont have in my army either :-)

 

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Nice contribution ianob, although given that I’m from Liverpool you had me at the Steven Gerrard picture.

YNWA

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Great read! Where do you stand on  Nagash? Do you think he is a below average choice in a competitive environment?

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Can't wait to hear about why the Zombie Dragon is a hidden gem ... maybe you could give me a heads-up beause I'm currently on the fence as far as buying one goes (the model is gorgeous).

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Nice article on the basics.  I'd also put spirit hosts, hexwraiths, and nagash in the 'good enough' pile, but mileage varries, and the general point that only necromancers, dragon lords, and skeletons are truly great units still stands.  Which has me particularly worried about the next points adjustment, because like a lot of people I'm expecting a price hike for skittles.

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9 hours ago, CaptainNippon said:

Can't wait to hear about why the Zombie Dragon is a hidden gem ... maybe you could give me a heads-up beause I'm currently on the fence as far as buying one goes (the model is gorgeous).

From my experience it's the total package. It's durable enough that if your opponent fails at alpha striking it down before you can drink your chalice then it'll pretty much stay on the field the entire game (to illustrate, I had a game last year where my opponent threw like 9 or 12 fully buffed minotaurs into my VLoZD and brought him down to 1 wound. By the end of the game he was back up to 10). It's punchy enough that against 99% of the models in the game it will win in a grind (also our only source of rend 2 except morghasts). Fast enough to get wherever it's needed when it needs to be there and has a command ability that doesn't quit.

The VLoZD is something that your opponent HAS to deal with or it will just rampage all over doing whatever it wants and the amount of effort needed to bring it down means your other units will be able to cap objectives in safety.

 

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They were talking about unridden zombie dragon, which OP called a 'hidden gem', for reasons they say they'll get into in a future article.  VLoZD is a gem to be sure, but not at all a hidden one.

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6 minutes ago, Sception said:

They were talking about unridden zombie dragon, which OP called a 'hidden gem', for reasons they say they'll get into in a future article.  VLoZD is a gem to be sure, but not at all a hidden one.

I noticed that later, I'm an idiot. Apologies. However, if you compare the unridden dragon to say, morghasts, our other heavy hitter I think that the extra 80 points is worth it. It's a great choice for legion of night's deepstrike and again, it is something your opponent is forced to deal with because of its sheer damage potential and speed. It loses a lot of its durability compared to being ridden but becomes more disposable in the process letting you be more aggressive with it.

This is just theorycrafting on my part since I only have the 1 model and I want the vampire on top so my general can't get sniped but I do want to give it a shot 

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The main and unique benefit of morghasts, harbingers specifically, in LoN is the extended charge range, taking them from a unit your opponent 'has to deal with' right away or else it quickly start tearing their units up to one they may not even have a chance to try to deal with until after they've already started tearing their units up.

Same reason the common consensus seems to prefer terrorgheists to dragons in LoN lists.

 

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10 minutes ago, Sception said:

The main and unique benefit of morghasts, harbingers specifically, in LoN is the extended charge range, taking them from a unit your opponent 'has to deal with' right away or else it quickly start tearing their units up to one they may not even have a chance to try to deal with until after they've already started tearing their units up.

Same reason the common consensus seems to prefer terrorgheists to dragons in LoN lists.

 

This.

I was hoping they'd offer a new perspective on why the unridden Dragon might not be outclassed by the TG. 

 

 

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Yeah, I like the look of the ZD, but Terrorgheist just seems to bring more to the table. I run a Bravery debuff oriented LoB list, and the Terrorgheist can rip units a new one with its shriek while still hitting pretty hard in CQB. It also has its fun batbomb on death rule.

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The real problem with the ZD in LoNight is the failed charge and the deathless minion... if you fumble you 9“ charge it is stuck out in the open to be dealt with.

The TG can scream 10“, morghast charge 3d6 and for 300 points bring a banshee 😉 

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I disagree with the TG being better. Deathshriek has never done any work for me. The attacks profile (minus the scream/breath) are pretty close. Maw is identical (with the TG having a special rule for max damage on a roll of a 6) and the hit/wound/rend for the claws are the same as well, but this is where the TG loses out big time. TG only gets 4 attacks and d3 damage compared to the dragons 7(!) Attacks and fixed damage 2. For me consistency is king and damage 2 will always trump damage d3 because while yes, i could get 3 damage off those attacks i have an equal chance of only getting 1 damage off of them.

Basically: max damage for a TG in close combat is 30. Max damage for a ZD is 32. Average damage (just doing claws since maw is a wash), TG: 2.6 (assuming no saves and average damage) to the ZD's 4.62.

Overall i think the ZD is the better choice, its stronger in melee and its ranged weapon is useful in all situations whereas the TGs scream is not that great against demons, death, or heroes unless you are running a LoB bravery bomb list.

 

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I would not say TG maw vs. ZD maw is a wash at all. The special rule is HUGE when it goes off (remember that it also bypasses saves, but does not count as mortal wounds). It is also our most consistent MW output in the army. Also should be noted the so called LoB bravery bomb is only one point better than every other legions, except for Night, which it ties with.

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3 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

I would not say TG maw vs. ZD maw is a wash at all. The special rule is HUGE when it goes off (remember that it also bypasses saves, but does not count as mortal wounds). It is also our most consistent MW output in the army. Also should be noted the so called LoB bravery bomb is only one point better than every other legions, except for Night, which it ties with.

Thats the problem. When it goes off. Like i said, consistency is king and with all the hit debuffs floating around its not reliable by any stretch. 

 

Edit: just for funsies lets do the math (assuming no hit debuff against a 3+ save unit).

TG: maw atacks 3×0.16 (odds for rolling a 6)=0.48×6 (damage)= 2.88

3×0.33 (odds for rolling a 4 or 5)=0.99×3.5 (average damage) =

Total maw damage 4.39

Claws, 4×0.5=2×0.66=1.32×0.5= 0.66×2(average of d3)=1.32

Total TG damage= 5.71

ZD:

Maw, 3×0.5=1.5×0.66=1×0.66=0.66×3.5 (average damage on a d6)=  2.28 

Claws, 7×0.5=3.5×0.66= 2.31×0.5=  1.15×2= 2.3.

Total damage 4.58

 

So, even with the special rule, in a fight that favors that rule (3+ save unit) the TG scores 1 more wound than the ZD. Close enough that its margin of error 

Edited by Gotrek

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Sooo, they’re tightly matched...

I still think for LoN the TG is the better choice, since it will have an impact, even without charging.

For LoB the TG is a beast...

In terms of raw fighting power the ZD probably has the edge, while his breath attack can also deal crazy damage.

Tough choice indeed...

against nurgle or seraphon the ZD is probably the better choice, I can see that, but against low moral opponents...with overwhelming dread, morghast and/or a death banner 

 

Edited by Honk

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As much as you say the shriek is an edge case, it can and does so work for me personally. Heck, in my last game I outright killed a Bloodsecrator by shrieking at it. Completely broke my opponent's Bloodreaver spam list. 

That said, Pestilential Breath still seems very potent, though it doesn't do Mortal Wounds. 

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4 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

I would not say TG maw vs. ZD maw is a wash at all. The special rule is HUGE when it goes off (remember that it also bypasses saves, but does not count as mortal wounds). It is also our most consistent MW output in the army. Also should be noted the so called LoB bravery bomb is only one point better than every other legions, except for Night, which it ties with.

I had that discussion with a Nurgle Player once, he was insisting that mortal wound saves work against that....

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Nurgle still get their 5+ since it isn't a mortal wound save. Death also get their 6+.

Characters like Nagash would not get their special 4+ mortal wound save as it isn't a mortal wound.

Edited by Ashtyn
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4 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said:

Nagash eaten by a Terrorgheist. What a twist!

I once finished of a Glottkin with the hooves of my necromancers mount... XD It is sweet when things like that happen^^

 

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