Problems with the good guys

[Ulfast]

Hello fellow Aos players. I want to start to say that I love the setings of AoS, that I like the game and think some of the miniatures (lite Moriathi) are the best that has even been done by any company.

 

But (you know a but would come), I have some problems with GW and the good guys. I think the game has none! And I want you to help me out if I´m wrong or what could be done. Lets look at the faction in order (and I know order does´nt not really need to be good guys but of Death, destruction and chaos, order still is the closes(but I would love to have GW to make something diffrent and perhaps turn som Death or destruction faction into some kind of goodness).

 

Stormcast: Mostly out for fighting chaos, dont really care about so much else then the fight. Still perhaps the faction most close to be good.

Deepkin: Soulsucking fishelves, does´nt sound good to me.

Daughter of Khaine: Blood, blood and more blood to get there god back is not good eather 

Duardin of both kind: Only after gold in some form, don´t care about anything else.

Serphon: Dreamers that is far away in the sky most of the time.

Sylvaneth: Love nature, dislike everything else.

Other factions: so far got little support and could vanish so I don´t really count them.

 

So I´m wondering, who is looking after the ordinary people, the common folk and want to build new haven for them? I think we need some kind of faction that could be good and be that kind of faction. Perhaps rumors is true that we will get back high elves(or soemthing similiar) that could form role. But what do you other people think?

[The Wanderer]

GW has never really done 'Good' guys in it's games. Sure some are usually better than others but they all have flaws. 40k certainly doesn't have any good guys.

I wouldn't really want GW to make a totally good faction either because the inbuilt murkiness is part of what makes the setting cool (and, for a high fantasy game with vampires and magic, realistic).

There is an interesting gap in representation for non-Space Marine humans right now though...

[Trayanee]

I don't think a completely good faction is necessary, but I certainly get your point. There currently isn't a faction representing/protecting the not tainted human masses of mortal realms. The free cities of Firestorm are nice attempt to explain this situation but the gap where Bretonnia and Empire used to be is simply too large and Free guild for sure isn't able to fill it for me.

[flemingmma]

Isn't freeguild a decently competitive army?

[EMMachine]

45 minutes ago, flemingmma said:

Isn't freeguild a decently competitive army?

I think you got the question wrong. 

The Definition wasn't "good" as in "strong to play".  It was "good" in Form of "morality" and "activities"

The point is "the good guys" is subjective. Normally every faction thinks that they are doing the right thing. In reality it's the same. 

[Requete]

6 hours ago, Ulfast said:

So I´m wondering, who is looking after the ordinary people, the common folk and want to build new haven for them?

What's so good about that?

[robertxtrem]

Seraphon are only good. Others don't follow old one's plan.

[Acid_Nine]

24 minutes ago, robertxtrem said:

Seraphon are only good. Others don't follow old one's plan.

Honestly at this point I would question if the old ones planned this far ahead.

[S133arcanite]

3 hours ago, xking said:

Stormcast are the good guys(with the exception of the Knights Excelsior)

The knights Excelsior are, in a word, bags of deuche 

[boomr19]

As someone who historically has liked the "good guys"  I have wondered the same too.  Although it may be more realistic that none of the factions are really completely good.  For me, I can't wait to see the new light aelves.  My favorite race of the old world were the High Elves, who were good... basically.  Sure a lot of people call them pointy eared gits and they mostly only watched out for themselves. I'm interested to see if the light aelves are going to be a more integrated race than the high elves were.  Since the cities for the mortal realms seem to be a mix of human, duarden, aelf, etc, maybe they will be more involved with others.  Even if they are arrogant and totally self righteous, I hope they are more along the good/moral scale than we have seen in some of the other order factions. 

[boomr19]

2 minutes ago, xking said:

 

Hey thanks for the post! I just took a quick look, I'll go back and do a deep dive and read all of those later. 

[Mordeus]

No one was good in the Old World either. Bretonnia was a segregated land where any mutation was automatically burned, same with the Empire. An incredibly strict code guides them and deviating from that leads mostly to death. The Empire is not the safe place it says it is. Yes it is the best place if you are pink and bipedal and not an ogre but it is still a land where fanatical maniacs roam, where the witch hunters will arrest anyone they deem slightly alternative, etc. The Dwarves are closed minded selfish people unconcerned with anyone else unless it concerns them. Pointy ears are even more selfish and uncaring. Etc, you get the point!

[flamingwalnut]

Welcome to modern storytelling. When reality makes us question what even is good and will it ever really exist, fiction reflects that and focuses on anti-heroes and grey morality.

But Age of Sigmar does still have black and white. Chaos, while containing some Truth to it, is still firmly evil. And the Stormcasts do more than fight it. They oppose it, safeguard against it with their lives. They wager their very memories and personality to ensure the weak and the innocent live as happily as they can. Some are extreme, sure, but they are literally the Gleaming Paladin archtype, with a tragic background that only makes their steadfast nature all the more noble.

[Clan's Cynic]

Sigmar has been shown as nothing but benevolent, to the point that it's actually a little jarring when you realise this is Warhammer. The Stormcast are so focused on Chaos because they're by far - well, until very recently - the biggest threat to the Mortal Realms and his desire to reestablish civilisation.

I think we're going to see a Free Peoples/Free Guilds update eventually which should fit the bill of what the OP is after. The question is whether or not they're a continuation of the Empire aesthetic, or they try and double down hard on the copyright nonsense. Black Library certainly seems to be putting a lot more emphasis on them these days and continues that look, at least in terms of uniforms.  

[Drofnum]

3 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Sigmar has been shown as nothing but benevolent, to the point that it's actually a little jarring when you realise this is Warhammer. The Stormcast are so focused on Chaos because they're by far - well, until very recently - the biggest threat to the Mortal Realms and his desire to reestablish civilisation.

I think we're going to see a Free Peoples/Free Guilds update eventually which should fit the bill of what the OP is after. The question is whether or not they're a continuation of the Empire aesthetic, or they try and double down hard on the copyright nonsense. Black Library certainly seems to be putting a lot more emphasis on them these days and continues that look, at least in terms of uniforms.  

Sigmar has been shown to care nothing for the mortals of the realms and is solely focused on revenge against Chaos after they defeated him and pushed him back into Azyr.  He is in no way benevolent to mortals or he wouldnt allow some of his stormhosts to do what they do(Knights Excelsior).  Unless you believe a god has no knowledge of what his chosen warriors are doing.

[ledha]

Stormcast are the closest to good guys. They are quite close to normal humans army in our world, but only the most heroic and strong people can become a stormcast. Some of them can be ******, but they are 100% in the side of good, and even the more violents are still clearly on the good side

 

people often refer as the novel with the knight excelsior killing somes dudes they were supposed to save, but the dudes were already corrupted by chaos, as well as their village. Letting them live only to see them being fully corrupted after was a nonsense, and the stormcast obviously didn't enjoyed to kill the guys theyr liberated some minutes ago

[Veillotron]

I agree with recent posters that Stormcasts are generally depicted as the good guys. As @ledha noted there are indeed a few Malign Portents stories which depict the SCEs as ruthless and extremist in their fight against chaos; based on those stories one could argue that the Stormcasts are not good at all and have a very Spacemarine-ish view of the world. 

 

A good counter-example is the more voluminous  Warbeast novel, which depicts the Stormcasts as very human, noble and good. They have a job to do and must always consider the bigger picture, but they always try their best to save everyone they can. 

 

So, at least in my mind, they are good guys, but with some flaws. Not being the purests of paladins makes them more interesting...

 

my 2 cents ;-)

 

[PlasticCraic]

It's all about perspective.  I often see the humans as colonialists and Stormcast as an invading imperialist army in my background.  You might not see the expansion of Free Cities as such a great thing if you were the Troggoth whose swamp was drained for farmland, at the point of a "Liberator"'s sword.

For me, the good guys are the indiginous races of Ghur who are putting up a noble struggle against militaristic human invaders.

[PlasticCraic]

There was an interesting discussion on the latest Heelenhammer on this theme, whereby Wayne argued (convincingly imo) that Sigmar himself is a despot, but the Stormcast are generally noble and well-intentioned.  

It's a really interesting topic and I think it's a very cool aspect of the setting - there are a lot of shades of grey to explore. 

[Pariah]

I like the idea of a world like our own. There are good people, but no perfect countries.

 

  Being good is in the eye of the doer, flesh eater courts, many nurgle armies, stormcast, all are convinced they're heroes. 

[TheOtherJosh]

17 hours ago, Ulfast said:

I have some problems with GW and the good guys. I think the game has none!

What makes someone (or a faction) “good”? 

The Stormcast (by the time we are in the Malign Portents timeframe) are willing to completely wipe out any people or cities that they feel are “tainted” ... They’re very much “my way or the highway”’... and the shades of grey have moved to a starkness of black and white.

Is that good?

In “The Undying King” we see a faction of worshipers of Nagash who lovingly care for their ancestors. And whose (now dead) ancestors protect and care for and defend the living. Death is but part of life, and a closing of the circle.

Is that good?

4 hours ago, flamingwalnut said:

Chaos, while containing some Truth to it, is still firmly evil.

Nurgle recognizes that hope is but a vanity. That one should accept the inevitability of death and to embrace the solace that all of life is suffering. And in that understanding one understands that there is happiness and is wrapped in the solace that the end will bring more life. And their can be happiness and joy with that.

Is that evil?

Khorne is anger incarnate. 

Sure, there’s death involved. But it isn’t subtle. It’s blatant right out there, chip on your shoulder anger. The embodiment of the rage that has existed in the universe for ever.

Sometimes folks just need a boot to the head.

(Just ask an ancient master of “Tai-quan Leap” I’m sure that he or she would agree.)

Is that evil?

Seraphon sepecifically twist humanity into following chaos, merely because they have an enemy that they have no other way to figure out how to permanently defeat.

That was called out in “Call of Chaos: Lord of the Cosmic Gate”

Is that good? It seems awfully manipulative ...

And let’s not get into Morathi ...

You might say that all the factions are “its complicated”...

[TheOtherJosh]

12 minutes ago, xking said:

The Knights Excelsior  have never wipe out any cities.  They purged a village tainted with nurgle plague.

They wiped out those who called to Sigmar for help.

No shades of grey. No, purging the evil with the light from warding lanterns. Just killing.

The knights Excelsior are so drawn into the “destroy all chaos!” That they entirely missed other factions that were sneaking into the city of Excelsis.

[Drofnum]

4 hours ago, xking said:

Knights Excelsior do what they do, because they must. They are recruited from mortals that were betrayed by their people, They saw the corruption of chaos first hand and How it changes people for the worst. They saw how the plagues of Nurgle annihilated entire civilisations.   To the Knights Excelsior it is better for a few to die so that the many may live. To them chaos is a rot that they must fight at all cost, for they have seen the alternative.    

Also you must have not read most of the lore if you think "Sigmar  cares nothing  about mortals".   Sigmar has been shown to care very much about his people(including Duardin and Aelfs). 

The fact that he allows the knights excelsior operate they do is proof enough that he doesnt care overly much about mortals nearly as much as he cares about defeating chaos.  There has also been plenty of mention in lore that he doesnt really care if mortals understand his plans/desires etc just that they follow him, which is pretty tyranical and does not indicate he cares for them much at all, just sees them as a means to an end.

I've read the majority of the lore, Sigmar is no where near as "good" as people assume.

[Drofnum]

2 minutes ago, xking said:

I've read majority of the lore and novels. And talked to some the authors.   

It's not a competition, might want to keep in mind that you arent infallible either.

 

We can agree to disagree on it.  You see his motivations one way and I see them the other, thats basically the point everyone in here is trying to make.  There isnt a clear cut good guy, you see Sigmar as one but not everyone does.

[Malakree]

I never see Order as being the "Good" guys.

They just want to enforce a strict....well....order on the realms. Anyone with DnD experience can tell you that there is a huge difference between "Order" and "Good", to the point they are literally two different axis. Lawful (Order) --> Chaotic (Chaos) and Good --> Evil. Taking starwars as a great example of this

• Emperor Palpatine is Lawful Evil. He embodies the orderly society with rules and laws he just uses it for his own personal gain.
• On the other side of the coin the Rebels are Chaotic Good, they are violently overthrowing a legitimate and legal government because they believe it is evil.

So the Order faction isn't, and never really has been, good. It just likes laws, rules and a strict society where everything has it's place. Some aspects of it are Lawful Good, Sigmar no doubt believes in an orderly society which is for the benefit of everyone (good) but Morathi is a great example of Lawful Evil, she has literally created a cult for a dead god for her own benefit.

In fact most of the time Lawful Good and Lawful Evil are really good friends, to the point it's not uncommon for a lawful good force/character to actively defend a Lawful Evil character against a Chaotic Good. See Code Geass with Lelouch and Suzaku for the perfect example.

So yeah, the order faction isn't good and never has been. it's Lawful Neutral to Deaths Lawful Evil (it's an empire run entirely for Nagash) Destruction's Chaotic Neutral (they do whatever they want whenever) and Chaos who are Chaotic Evil (a bunch of megalomaniacs who want to take over the world however they can).