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SirCelus

Greenskin Lore Confusion

31 posts in this topic

SirCelus    7

Hullo TGA,

   I am a long time 40k gamer and recent AoS convert and I am noticing some lore bias on my part.  The army I'm building is a destruction soup of Greenskin, Moonclan, and Spiderfang. When thinking on my Warboss' backstory it dawned on me that I was filling in gaps in the AoS orruk lore with 40k ork lore. 

In particular 40k orks are asexual, genetically engineered,fungoid creatures. I mean  40k Orks are almost as two dimensional as Nids. AoS orruks don't seem to be. They might be but I can't seem to find any connection.

I think this frees me up to create more relatable characters. The open lore for orruks potentially allows my warboss to have a wife and children and or a home, and thus care about more than just a good fight. 

Was my initial conflation between the two lores understandable?

Does the openness (or lack of) certain AoS lore lend for better narrative?

And am I in the minority when I say certain factions seem really boring due to a limited depth.

Edited by Gaz Taylor
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Soulsmith    1,024

Unfortunately, due to aos' age, they simply haven't gotten around to fleshing out everyone's lores.

Greenskins will likely be along the same lines, remaining asexual. But I know what you mean, I find it important to think that a greenskins motivation is very different from other races. Namely that they don't have offspring, or offspring they care about. As such everything is self serving with no care for future generations. Even so, it doesn't mean they are cut and dry as just wanting a scrap. Fighting is just the easiest means to an end for them, and they probably enjoy it due to their natural talents in violence.

Consider the different Ork clans. Stuff like how the bad moons love being utterly wealthy, and the evil sunz just want to go fast. Nothing saying aos greenskins can't have the same drives. I personally have my greenskins headed up by a triumvirate of shamans (moonclan, bonesplitter, ironjawz) in a ruined city of ghur.

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kenshin620    56

While there is certainly a lack of fluff for Greenskins, I'm pretty sure they're not going to go full on Warcraft mode with some of them being noble and misunderstood warriors.

I'll agree that yes there will likely be more "this orruk group prefers to fight with boars" and "look, grot sky pirates!", but I highly doubt gw is going to radically change them. I think they most you could hope for would be orruk mercenaries that don't mind being paid by free cities.

 

I mean for crying out loud, Undead in AoS are "we're 100% all working for Nagash who wants everyone's souls". You don't get more one dimensional than that.

 

The only time they really, REALLY changed the fluff was the great Necron Retcon which changed them from being mindless space skeletons into space tomb kings.

Edited by kenshin620
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Vasshpit    292

I for one hope to see female orruks one day. That is if they're not subject to their 40k cuzinz biological themes of course. 

I'd also like to see them developed more in AoS than just "hulk smash" but not the full WoW treatment. I'm thinking more akin to the anti-heros. 

Some more concrete ideas as to how Gorkamorka feels, treats, acts, and blesses his followers couldn't hurt either. 

 

 

Off topic but some rumors as of late about 40k Orks sound promising. 

Edited by Vasshpit
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Skabnoze    201
2 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

The only time they really, REALLY changed the fluff was the great Necron Retcon which changed them from being mindless space skeletons into space tomb kings.

Greenskin fluff has changed a number of times in pretty large ways over the decades.  The Necron Retcon was not the only thing.  This is for both 40k and for Fantasy greenskins.  If you go back in time to Rogue Trader or 2nd Ed 40k the Orks that you had then were extremely different from what you have now.  In Warhammer Fantasy the Greenskins have always been fairly under-developed as a whole, but they have changed a bit as well.

There are a lot of small changes that happened over time, but the biggest one was the whole asexual fungus-men bit of fluff.  That did not exist until GorkaMorka and then 3rd edition 40k.  It did not exist in Fantasy and it did not exist in 40k either.  Prior to that there was a few references to female orcs/orks, but they were very very rarely mentioned.  For the most part GW simply did not put any effort into explaining reproduction and how youth were raised.  The asexual reproduction was used in GorkaMorka to simplify the ork culture and explain the origin of the Yoofs youn purchased into your warband.  Back in Rogue Trader and 2nd edition Orks were specifically not fungus based.  Instead, they were described as having green blood (they retconned the blood to being red now) due to having a super-algae in it.  That Algae was what dulled pain, rapidly clotted wounds, and allowed them to sustain such horrific injuries.  The green blood was also the reason GW gave for Ork skin color in 40k.  They also changed Ork klans and Warbands quite a bit.

For Warhammer Fantasy I cannot ever recall reading any sort of origin to the Orcs.  They are simply described as always being around and populating most of the world - although the Badlands was always listed as the most heavily overrun by Orcs.  40k Orcs have always had a bit of fluff implying that they were a bio-engineered race and that some mishap befell the creator class "Brain Boyz" - although they have offered different rumors as to what befell them over the years.  Fantasy has never had that as far as I ever remember.  The Orc history is basically just a list of warbosses over the eras and the destruction they wrought. 

The only real exception to that is the Black  Orcs (who are now 'Ard Boyz) - who in old Fantasy fluff were a magically/eugenically created race.  The Black Orcs were originally described as a slave race of Orcs created by the Chaos Dwarves.  They were created to be tougher, stronger, and more disciplined than the standard enslaved orc.  The Chaos Dwarves did a good job, but the Black Orcs rebelled and escaped.  They then proceeded to spread into the Badlands and quickly conquered or rose through the ranks of the other tribes due to the Orc natural hierarchy of the most big and belligerent being in charge.

Eventually, Warhammer Fantasy started to make a few references in later editions (at least 6th edition or later) to Greenskins reproducing as fungus like in 40k.  From what little fluff I have been able to find for Greenskins in Age of Sigmar there is currently little about greenskin society and nothing about reproduction.  The current Greenskins all seem to mainly fight because that is what they like to do and because they were formed in the image of GorkaMorka.  Ironjawz fluff seems to mainly involve how they became so massive and began conquering all other orcs.   Greenskinz don't really have much background at all.  Bonesplitterz background basically involves them being infused by the Waaagh energy of shamans (quite often total lunatics) who are obsessed with chasing down and killing big monsters to collect some of the essence of GorkaMorka that may (or may not) reside in their bones or teeth.  Spiderfang and Moonclan fluff is also pretty basic at the moment.

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Skabnoze    201
12 minutes ago, Baron_Bathory said:

While we're on the topic, what in the nine ****** is with Chaos? What do they want? What is their goal? What is the meaning of constant corruption and destruction? What happens when nothing is left? This is why I've always found it hard to play an immortal evil race. Their goals are never clearly defined and you never really know what exactly you're fighting for, Don't mean to hijack the thread with this topic, just something I've always been curious about that's along the same lines.

Chaos Gods in GW games have always been more of a personification of a concept than a sentient being with a clear and logical motivation.  Sure, they have explicit goals, but I expect that if you were to have a conversation with them and ask for the reasons behind those goals that even they really could not tell you in the end.  That was always the impression that I got.  They were never wronged, or corrupted, or anything - they simply "ARE".  They did at times in the past tie them to being manifestations of certain concepts of the psyche of the various mortal races due to the way the warp realm interacts with the magic/psychics of the material realms and the sort of parasitic/symbiotic relationship of the inhabitants of those realms.

I have not dug much into the Chaos fluff for Age of Sigmar specifically, but I don't expect that they have changed the basic concept of chaos that much from what it was.

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kenshin620    56

I do admit from the original warhammer and rogue trader fluff is vastly different, it was also a time where they really didn't have a solid foundation for literally the entire world. For crying out loud one of the ultramarine librarians in the original fluff was half eldar! Lets be real here, the original writers for warhammer were no Shakespeares.

But for the most part, I'd consider 5-6e WFB and 3e 40k to be the base of warhammer fluff where things haven't changed too drastically...other than making "goody two shoes" factions like Bretonnia and Tau more grimdark in later editions (and the necron flip). Heck the fact that a good chunk of 2e 40k models are still being sold shows how little some factions have changed (much to the dismay of eldar and chaos marine players). Before The End Times and AoS, everyone kept complaining warhammer fluff was stagnant (and when it did move...it was sort of dumb like Archaon failing his chaos conquests and getting punched in the face by Grimgor).

 

24 minutes ago, Baron_Bathory said:

While we're on the topic, what in the nine ****** is with Chaos? What do they want? What is their goal? What is the meaning of constant corruption and destruction? What happens when nothing is left? This is why I've always found it hard to play an immortal evil race. Their goals are never clearly defined and you never really know what exactly you're fighting for, Don't mean to hijack the thread with this topic, just something I've always been curious about that's along the same lines.

Well that is the point more or less, its Chaos. There is "no reasoning" for them. They're emotions made manifest, illogical and temperamental. One day they may give their followers an awesome chaos blade of doom, the next day they turn their brains into a pile of mush. They represent both "good" and "bad" qualities, with more emphasis on the bad but with the good mainly being twisted in a cosmic horror kind of way. 

 

But hey who knows, given some of the larger fluff shifts in both games, there could be something more tangible for Destruction factions. I mean now we have sea elves who want to suck people's souls! And they're order!

 

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Skabnoze    201
On 4/5/2018 at 12:58 PM, kenshin620 said:

I do admit from the original warhammer and rogue trader fluff is vastly different, it was also a time where they really didn't have a solid foundation for literally the entire world. For crying out loud one of the ultramarine librarians in the original fluff was half eldar! Lets be real here, the original writers for warhammer were no Shakespeares.

But for the most part, I'd consider 5-6e WFB and 3e 40k to be the base of warhammer fluff where things haven't changed too drastically...other than making "goody two shoes" factions like Bretonnia and Tau more grimdark in later editions (and the necron flip). Heck the fact that a good chunk of 2e 40k models are still being sold shows how little some factions have changed (much to the dismay of eldar and chaos marine players).

To be fair, Warhammer was around long long before 5-6e.  Remember that the Warhammer World predates the warhammer battles game.  Warhammer originally began as an alternate DnD world.  Then it migrated into Fantasy Battles and it's own RPG (which went away for over a decade before coming back).  The world had tons of background and foundation.  But it morphed quite a bit over time once the Miniature Wargame took over - which had a lot to do with how that game was being developed and the company's capacity for creating/distributing/selling armies for the miniatures.  They have removed races from the background and then gone back and pulled them back out and changed them to fit the current game a number of times over the years.  But, I would agree that the eras you mentioned was where they decided to plant the background for both settings and not let them move too much (where some think it stagnated).

 

On 4/5/2018 at 12:58 PM, kenshin620 said:

Before The End Times and AoS, everyone kept complaining warhammer fluff was stagnant (and when it did move...it was sort of dumb like Archaon failing his chaos conquests and getting punched in the face by Grimgor).

How dare you!  :P

First let's set something straight,  Grimgor did not punch Archaon in the face - he headbutted him in the face and then proceeded to beat the snot out of him.  Then rather than killing Archaon, he got bored at winning and wandered off to lament the lack of worthy opponents.

I contend that is not dumb, but in fact pretty awesome.  But as for Archaon's story being dumb, I won't argue too much with you on that side of things.  The real interesting part of the Storm of Chaos campaign really involved the Empire with the story of Luthor Huss and Valten.  

Edited by Skabnoze
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10 hours ago, SirCelus said:

Does the openness (or lack of) certain AoS lore lend for better narrative?

I certainly think so!  When the released that video recently when Phil Kelley discussed the nature of the Mortal Realms and how day and night works in them, I did not care for it one bit!  I prefer having a less-defined setting to let people and players come up with their own stuff.

And speaking of Orcs/Orruks, in my personal fluff for my Ironjawz, Da Crisomn Crushas, my Megaboss, Blurrog, had a vision of what it would mean to win every battle and defeat every opponent: nothingness.  That eventually there would be one big Orruk as the winner, and no one left to fight.  Out of a drive to prevent the eternal boredom to come from being the last surviving Orruk (because of course it would be him!) he makes sure to only fight the biggest and baddest enemies, and let smaller enemies grow up bigger and stronger so as to make better opponents later on.  So this gives him a sense of pseudo-honor that he has in protecting "da littl' uns", and getting "propa fightin' in" against stronger foes.  In contrast, many of Blurrog's lieutenants are excited for the coming harvests, viewing their actions as making a garden of Gork (and probably Mork).  So Da Crimson Crushas aren't about complete destruction, but keeping the cycle of destruction going forever.

Could I do something like that in WHFB?  Maybe, but I never read into Orc and Goblin fluff back in the day (I was just planning my second army when AoS dropped).  But I can tell you that in a more fixed setting like Warmahordes you definitely couldn't have that.  To me, I love the vagueness of the Age of Sigmar setting.  I like that the maps aren't completely set or accurate, and you don' know what lies beyond the edge, because that is where the excitement and mystery is: not knowing.

10 hours ago, SirCelus said:

And am I in the minority when I say certain factions seem really boring due to a limited depth.

I would say give the game time.  GW is updating the armies and setting at a decent pace, and they slowly give out bits of information with each release.  Patience is a virtue, remember :)

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Skabnoze    201
3 minutes ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

I would say give the game time.  GW is updating the armies and setting at a decent pace, and they slowly give out bits of information with each release.  Patience is a virtue, remember :)

I agree.

Remember that they literally exploded over 30 years of world-building and started over so it is going to take a bit of time to get a lot of depth back.

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So in warhammer fantasy role play there were stats for half orcs implying cross breeding with humans.

in the empire in flames supplement to the enemy within campaign you can actually meet female orcs in a orc harem

- not kidding. 

And in bloodbowl there are certainly female cheerleading orcs. 

 

However skarsnik novel and recent lore contradicts this and backs up transfer of 40k fungus lore.

if we can’t have female orcs (and male orcs for that matter as all orcs are non gendered) then I would like gw to introduce the concept of children a bit more. It would enable a bit more storytelling like how you have Azog and bolg in the hobbit films. I also really want goblins to stand on their own two feet in aos and not be reduced and belittled in the way they have been in 40k.

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Zambo    30

As Morglum says the last real lore I remember that covered greenskins life cycle was the Skarsnik novel released pre end times 

It covered the whole story from birth (not technicals correct) to king of the 8 peaks. Bit daft but very nice enjoyable n covers the structure of goblin society in detail, if GW can release some fluff along these lines  I’d be happy enough 

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Chris Tomlin    3,502

Right guys, I've had to do some moderating in the Destruction forum for the first time, a sad day indeed!

Needless to say, some of the above comments were completely inappropriate and warning points have been issued. I've also hidden the (justified) responses to these comments, just to keep it tidy. Please please just take a moment to think about what you've written before hitting that "Submit Reply" button. I take great pride in the community that resides in this part of the forum, so lets keep it nice, friendly and appropriate yeah?

Cheers,
Chris

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Lucio    352

I'm interested to see where GW takes both Greenskinz, and Moonclan in the near future.

Given the Malign Portents Fungoid Shaman, we'll definitely see the Moonclan sharing a relation with fungus, but I doubt they'll explicitly make then "from" fungus, instead leaving that for Squigs and the like. In any case,I feel that the Moonclan will come out with a solid bastion to rival Bonesplitta's and Ironjawz, and yes they might on occasion be physically bullied by the larger Orruks, I doubt they'll be subserviant in the same way

 

As for Greenskinz, I would like a little bit of the "WoW factor",  just to give them a little depth, maybe they're the mercenries of the mortal realms, or that they build cities that rival those of men. If you've ever read Stan Nichols - Orcs, that's the kind of feel I have in mind.

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Like everyone else I'm excited to get some more lore.

From the 8th edition O&G army book, p14:

"There are myriad smaller greenskin domains scattered across the world. Many of these Orc and Goblin enclaves were once part of a Waaagh! that gained footholds in new lands after the invasion's inevitable dissolution.  Such pockets of greenskins are not unlike debris washed to a new locale by raging floodwaters.  Sometimes these survivors are hunted and exterminated, or die fighting each other, but sometimes these greenskin offshoots take root and thrive.  There, in seclusion, the greenskins adapt, multiply and become strong again.  In this way some tribes grow distinct whilst re-sporing in there newfound and remote surroundings."

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kenshin620    56
17 hours ago, Lucio said:

Given the Malign Portents Fungoid Shaman, we'll definitely see the Moonclan sharing a relation with fungus, but I doubt they'll explicitly make then "from" fungus, instead leaving that for Squigs and the like.

Maybe Moonclan might get some hybrid grots not unlike Sylvaneth? Except instead of half tree people, its half mushroom grots (kind of like the real life "zombie" fungus).

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Malakree    559
1 hour ago, kenshin620 said:

Maybe Moonclan might get some hybrid grots not unlike Sylvaneth? Except instead of half tree people, its half mushroom grots (kind of like the real life "zombie" fungus).

At this point it's almost guarenteed, imo, that Moonclan will be changed to spore/mushroom based for both the grots and squids giving both way more character and integration as a faction.

I suspect gitmob will become grot skypirates with them providing the tech aspect (warmachines) of grot society.

Personally I would then build up the spiderfang faction to be the Bonesplitterz equivalent, give them things like spider chariots/spider riders and large units of mutated half grot/spider things.

Lastly consign unruly rabble element over to the ogor side of destruction to allow them more swarm options. Anything which is left over goes with the remnants of greenskinz into orcs and goblins compendium.

Finally re-release the greenskinz faction as the more clan orientated, civilised, less war focused of orruks. This gives you crazy savages, elite perma-waaagh! and the more militia type of orruks.

So you get actual Orruk strongholds which have what we would expect of say an orruk version of sparta/ancient Greek city states with grot slaves making up the majority of the helots

This would give an amazing base for thinks like Orruk hunter units which utilise bows and ambush, blocks of poorly equipped militia, units of tightly knit Orruk fighting units that use pikes, seers who run more on my. It would add a good contrast to the other Destruction armies.

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Malakree    559

So as an addendum to my previous post, in order to try and keep things going (totally not because I have way to much free time), I rigged up some custom warscrolls to give a better idea of where my thoughts were going.

Loose initial points values

Spoiler

 

Lesser Orruks (Battleline for Greenskinz):
Points: 60/240 (10/50)

5acbc67f26194_LesserOrruks.png.d63d03c4d5eda8729b56c0b990ae35bc.png

 

Spoiler

 

Clan Orruks (Battleline): 90/300 (10/40)

5acbc9c7cd61c_ClanOrruks.png.60b6c0262ef66614bcb4b15fa6b5a34a.png


 

Spoiler

Clan Legionaries(Battleline for Greenskinz):
Points: 120/300 (10/30)

5acbc9ce81c90_ClanLegionaries.png.6e27dd8b6489412cbd2514a462e3007a.png

Spoiler

Orruk Hunters:
Points:  60/300 (5/30)

5acbc683ddf5e_OrrukHunters.png.b31384083720733c52691219861a16f8.png

So lots of models, but only 1 wound each. Some ways to get round the bravery issue and generally "ok" attacks. There would then obviously be the Boar Boys, Chariots and characters to go with it. 

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Skabnoze    201

Orcs and "civilized" just don't go together in any way in my brain.  I don't see them ever really getting away from the Barbarian raiders thing that they have always had.

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Malakree    559
5 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Orcs and "civilized" just don't go together in any way in my brain.  I don't see them ever really getting away from the Barbarian raiders thing that they have always had.

We wouldn't consider germanic tribes to be "civilised" or the Mongolians really. In reality they just didn't confirm to what we would consider civilisation and that's what I went for with the clans and hunters. 

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Skabnoze    201
5 minutes ago, Malakree said:

We wouldn't consider germanic tribes to be "civilised" or the Mongolians really. In reality they just didn't confirm to what we would consider civilisation and that's what I went for with the clans and hunters. 

Which Mongolians are you referring to?  The nomadic tribal raiders, or the nation conquering war-machine empire of Ghengis?

I am not saying that I dislike the stuff you made, but I don't ever see GW taking the orcs anywhere near "noble savages" territory rather than the rampaging barbarian destroyers that they have used for them.  I'm not saying that it can't happen - GW seems to be doing some crazy stuff in Age of Sigmar.  I expect we will see something very different for future Orcs/Greenskins - but I think they will possibly do something really left-field that none of us were expecting.

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Malakree    559
1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

Which Mongolians are you referring to?  The nomadic tribal raiders, or the nation conquering war-machine empire of Ghengis

Both 😃 

At this i expect anything destruction other the Moonclan to get the original dark eldar codex. 15 years till am update QQ

Edited by Malakree
Please don't take this as me shutting anything down. Would be cool to have other people throw ideas out. Just struggling to separate Bonesplitterz ironjawz and greenskinz

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Zambo    30
21 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Which Mongolians are you referring to?  The nomadic tribal raiders, or the nation conquering war-machine empire of Ghengis?

Genghis Khan  was the founder and first Great Khan of the Mongol Empire, which became the largest contiguous empire in history after his death. He came to power by uniting many of the nomadic tribes of Northeast Asia. 

Kinda one and the same thing skabnoze 😀

I have always loved the goblin wolf rider aesthetic so would love it if GW took this direction, also a Shooty, ambush style army is just what destruction needs right now, 400 Pts of which would be a must in most IJ armies 

It would also fit in with the Gutbuster theam so 2 birds 1 stone springs to mind 

 

Edited by Zambo
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If they give Greenskins their own allegiiance ability in GH2018, then we'll have an idea what direction they want to take them in. The issue (tabletop wise) is how do you make them standout when Ironjawz practically do what they do but better?

The recent Beast Arises series from 40k fascinates me. I haven't read most of it, but from the spoilers and tidbits I've seen, it was pretty cool to see a burgeoning ork society.

I personally wouldn't mind Destruction cities, or their imitation of cities. The barbarian "city" concept could be a cool idea to pursue. Like the Khans, the Greenskins could also pack up their city and take it with them on their WAAAGH! or just build over the ruins of their former occupants. 

I wouldn't mind if Greenskins pretty much stayed the same from WHFB, but I do agree they need some kind of IP addition that makes them unique

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Malakree    559

Aye it's the distinction which is the ******. 

  • Ironjawz are big, hard, expensive and elite (supposedly...)
  • Bonesplitterz are crazy, primitive but tough

Greenskinz then get to fill the gap between those two, which is far more numerous but not as tough relying on larger numbers of smaller orruks. Problem is if it's just that then they start looking like better equipped Bonesplitterz, the easiest way to distinguish there, in my opinion, is to add a level of organisation which isn't found in the other two. This actually has a reasonable foundation when you look at Ironjawz, the smallest unit in IJ is the Ardboys, the ones who AREN'T ironjawz yet (in the fluff) with it being noted that they are super unusual because they have a level of coordination and organisation that the actual IJ don't have.

  • Extrapolate that into a basis for Greenskinz, smaller and weaker but more numerous. Not as heavily armoured as Ironjawz but more coordinated and unified. 

If we want to base that close to existing Orruk Lore then building off the clan system is a good start in my estimation. This gives you something on which to base the coordination and unification while still maintaining the fractious nature of the Greenskinz tribes. So you get big tent cities with multiple Orruk tribes together who can seemingly at random, to everyone else, suddenly form a Waaagh! and go rampaging across the realms (ala Mongolians) but they could equally spin round and have a civil war.

This is actually has a good analogy in the Celtic tribes of pre-Roman England, capable of trade and cooperation or in-fighting, with that comes all the potential for Ironage type weaponry, strategies and practices.

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