Mixed Destruction "within Ogre Kingdoms"

[Overtyrant of Destruction]

Hello!
Excuse for my English grammar, I've tried to write as best I can as possible.

I started this topic because I've felt in a good while about that BCR is a lot weaker in 2000p than it was before GHB17 with 6 scenarios, so does Gutbusters too (thanks for nerfed destruction allegiances). I've tried to figur what it's best for BCR or Gutbusters to face against "tier 1" armies like Tzeentch, KO and so on. In my experience for BCR and Gutbusters they can do well against Tier 2 and lower like Seraphon, Ironjawz and so on. I've tried to use 18 yhetees with 3 thundertusks with retreat&pile-in tactic against KO, and so has my army been defeated by KO in 1-2 turns in a row of two. While I've played against Fyreslayers (tier 1) a few times, I usually come at equal or lose or sometimes win and so on. But with the same army against KO, and have tried with Eurlbad, the result has been same, big loose. I've noticed BCR can do well against Stormcast, its weak point is suffered mortal wounds. I mean BCR got very limited to face against all round, big win or big loose.

What I got is that Mixed Destructions comes at some between Tier 1-2, just if you chose the best units of Destruction and so on. The problem is that my feeling for Ogors or within units of Ogre Kingdoms will be lost if I only go best units for winning game with Mixed Destruction. Two things I want to play with my army; one, that shall feel Ogor's theme, two, to win for fun with a nice army theme.

If you have got some experience, please leave comments to share knowledge.

We don't need to talk about Stonehorn, it doesn't matter, with the cost and nerfed skeleton stone, he's worthless.
Thundertusk doesnt need to talk about, he's too expansive and his Frost-wreathed Ice is too fast to be worse with just 2 suffered wounds, with 4+ save. And he is easy to die by a simple archery unit. I've tried a lot to use Thundertusks (Huskard, Frostlord and Beaststriders), the result is that if they suffered two wounds, then I've "lost" point in the army (I can heal with Huskard or pelt, but often it isn't enough to restore 6 mortals wounds). He isn't OP unless against new and casual players who has been surprised with 6 MW.

Mournfang, nah.
Yhetees, YES! but nah, 6 save and his Frost Aura only affect in combat phase. It's exactly like in WFB8 where they got flammable, no thanks.

Anyways, skip them.

Now I've found interesting to play with the army list, it's gonna to be Mixed Destruction, take a look:
Tyrant w. Great Gutsgouger
Icebrow Hunter
3x12 Ogors with pairs of weapons
10 Sabres
8 Sabres
Battalion: Skal
1970/2000p

3x12 Ogors just for 1200p, with 144 wounds and they do very good at combat, can also be good to defend against Shooting (save 5+ and thanks Lookout Grot for saving 6+ against suffered wounds and mortals).
It will take a while to kill them, and they can be immuned to take battleshock, thanks by Tyrant with his unique command ability which makes the unit is immuned as long Tyrant lives and so on.
Tyrant is also great at combat with his Great Gutsgouger (Bragg model), with battle brew and might is right which makes him stronger: when roll to wound, the basic is 6+, but with these will it be 4+ to make 6 damage(!).
Problem is that he can be easily to die, in any situations.
Meanwhile.. the enemy will be worry about the Skal incoming.. 18 cats! And you know what they can do, an unit with 10 sabres, 3 attack per model with -1 rend is great and so on.

Hope this topic will be interesting to talk about.
I'll try with this army list next week and I'll tell how it goes.

Thanks!
Fredrik

[PlasticCraic]

Very interesting post there, and I like your army a lot.

It should be strong at objective play - Ogors will take a bit of shifting, and the Skal is a very powerful tool, helped by the fact that the cats don't even have to come down particularly close to the Hunter!

I guess my question is how you would deal with Order save spam?  The only thing with heavy rend is the Tyrant (could get shot off before he gets into combat), and no mortal wounds at all that I can see?

In the right scenario you might not need it, if you can just play the objective.  But even though I usually ignore / tie up Stardrakes for example, it's nice to have something that can tackle Dracoths.

Also Duality might be a weak point, but overall I think it could be pretty solid, and certainly capable of competing with a lot of decent armies in most scenarios.  Will definitely surprise a few people too!

[Overtyrant of Destruction]

11 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Very interesting post there, and I like your army a lot.

It should be strong at objective play - Ogors will take a bit of shifting, and the Skal is a very powerful tool, helped by the fact that the cats don't even have to come down particularly close to the Hunter!

I guess my question is how you would deal with Order save spam?  The only thing with heavy rend is the Tyrant (could get shot off before he gets into combat), and no mortal wounds at all that I can see?

In the right scenario you might not need it, if you can just play the objective.  But even though I usually ignore / tie up Stardrakes for example, it's nice to have something that can tackle Dracoths.

Also Duality might be a weak point, but overall I think it could be pretty solid, and certainly capable of competing with a lot of decent armies in most scenarios.  Will definitely surprise a few people too!

Exactly!
Now that would be possible problem against the army with higher save. I've been thought about that, Ogors who don't have rend.. Tyrant does but yeah, he can get shot off as u said, and he probably should be carefully, support Ogors. But if the army who doesn't have good shooting then Tyrant can join and be in combat, tho his weapon range is 3" so that he can stay behind of ogors and attack. Sabres got -1 rend, Hunter has his shooting, instead of using his weapons he can breath within 6" and so does it a D3 mortal wounds at 4+ (50% chance, but still better than crossbow and spear).

Now back to Ogors with 0 rend, I have compared with Irongots 6x for 400p, has -1rend and dmg 3. tools.druchii.net shows that Ogors do better than Irongots at least if almost all models are in range for combat. Eg fighting against an unit with save 3+ (with or without reroll saves). Because Ogors and Ironguts have same 4+ to hit but Ogors have double attacks and can reroll to hit with 1s and so do wounds (reroll to all failed wounds if ogors got 10 or more or rolled 10+ when charging) too which Ironguts can't (except once per battle if any at least ogor has fled then they can use it), except its ability will allow them to reroll to hit and wound with 1s. But still the result is that Ogors is better than Ironguts for the cost no matter what enemy unit's toughness is.

When it's about scenarios, I think it wouldn't be problem with this army at most, like you said, just maybe Duality of Death can be problem. I'm looking forward with it for new experience!

Thank you for your reply!

[Solaris]

Yeah, I think basic Ogors are the way to go with Ogre-lists nowadays. I'd look at adding a Butcher with Cauldron to your list, it is simply excellent. A problem with the list is that you don't have a whole lot of rend or mortal wounds, however that is not easy to solve. If you're open to mixing in some Gitmob grots, perhaps you could do something like this?

Tyrant
Butcher
Icebrow Hunter
12 Ogors
12 Ogors
8 Frost Sabres
8 Frost Sabres
20 Gitmob Grots
Grot Rock Lobber
Grot Rock Lobber
Skal
1970 pts, 188 wounds, 8 drops

You get some magic, some random buffs for your Ogors from the cauldron, you have the Skal ambush and you get some extra rend -2 damage 3 attacks with 40" range. Should be more versatile than your original list.

[Malakree]

Look at adding grot shamans a butcher and the harbringer tbh.

Butchers are fantastic multipurpose and give you wizards. Grots give you more spells with MW output outside of arcane bolt.

[Overtyrant of Destruction]

Thanks for replies!

I've sometimes wondered if I should bring my Butcher into this list, but in all of my experience with Butcher is that he does very random, can be great or bad too often. If he didn't do any in a round (or to suffer mw himself), 140p is not worth for that and should spend on other.

Rock Lobber is great, but but it isn't made by ogors! Or nah it doesnt matter, goblins can look like gnoblars Sure maybe I should bring them, 100p is cool.

A grot shaman, gitmob or moonclan one? They are cheap, Mystic Shield helps to support the unit or cast some mortal wounds. Just a maybe, if I'm forced to open mixing destructions.. I'm afraid that army's theme will look like more into rainbow

By the way (Im using phone) @Solaris, Gitmob Grots as you suggested me to use this, may I ask, why? Is that better option than using 3x Ogors or other like Orruks? Tell me, I'm curious

Anyways, the problem is that I dont have these grots (goblins) models. All I got is Ogors and some from Greenskinz (Boyz and so on) and Wyvern!

Hope you will get a great day!

Fredrik

[Overtyrant of Destruction]

There is an other option for army list I think it would be good, and also cool army:

Tyrant

Icebrow Hunter

2x12 Ogors

20 Gitmob Grots bows

10&8 Frost Sabres

3x1 Grot Rock Lobber

Skal

1970/2000p.

Or I can also drop 6 sabres for a Butcher or 4 sabres for a more Rock Lobber or a shaman?

Any tho?

Fredrik

[Malakree]

5 hours ago, Overtyrant of Destruction said:

A grot shaman, gitmob or moonclan one? They are cheap, Mystic Shield helps to support the unit or cast some mortal wounds. Just a maybe, if I'm forced to open mixing destructions.. I'm afraid that army's theme will look like more into rainbow

Moonclan for the MW output. Or the Harbringer (fungoid cave shaman) who is for our entire faction. I only suggest them because you could convert them to look like gnoblars which are gutbusters so would stick in theme. 

 

5 hours ago, Overtyrant of Destruction said:

I've sometimes wondered if I should bring my Butcher into this list, but in all of my experience with Butcher is that he does very random, can be great or bad too often. If he didn't do any in a round (or to suffer mw himself), 140p is not worth for that and should spend on other.

I think this is a case where the spell casting capability is good enough on it's own and by the time you have 3 of them the random is seriously reduced. Getting to cast Mystic Shield, Bolt and Maw every turn is actually really good, plus the MW output is super important for helping you shift things you normally couldn't. This is why I'd only suggest a Grot (gnoblar) shaman after you have 3 butchers, they are there for more cheap MW output, it's the one huge weakness you have.

[Solaris]

21 hours ago, Overtyrant of Destruction said:

Bhe way (Im using phone) @Solaris, Gitmob Grots as you suggested me to use this, may I ask, why? Is that better option than using 3x Ogors or other like Orruks? Tell me, I'm curious

They'd be better for a few reasons, yeah. They are good for scoring objectives, since that is based on model count. Give them bows, and they can chip away at the enemy a little bit while standing on the objective. With 20 models you can also cover a lot of board space if you want to use them as a screen. For example, if you face an army that can charge you the first turn having a long line of grots in front of your army will help a lot.

[Fridge_Opener]

I've found that gutbusters have potential against most lists they just don't have enough speed. You have the staying power to hold onto your objectives, you've the alpha strike deterrent in grot hordes, you've better shooting than people expect (scraplaunchers and leadbelchers who are also strong in combat) and your characters are solid!! You can do well against most armies if you play the mission well but the issue is players of equal standards will beat you more often than not with tier 1 armies! You just don't have the speed to get the major in knife to the heart for example and some match ups can be auto lose games depending on the scenario. I've found they're an army that you need a couple of games (where you could get really smashed!!!)  to get a feel for it but after that it really slows down for you and you can hold your own. w/out a codex we won't be placing in tournaments anytime soon but such is life!!

[Overtyrant of Destruction]

On 2018-03-03 at 6:11 PM, Malakree said:

Moonclan for the MW output. Or the Harbringer (fungoid cave shaman) who is for our entire faction. I only suggest them because you could convert them to look like gnoblars which are gutbusters so would stick in theme. 

 

I think this is a case where the spell casting capability is good enough on it's own and by the time you have 3 of them the random is seriously reduced. Getting to cast Mystic Shield, Bolt and Maw every turn is actually really good, plus the MW output is super important for helping you shift things you normally couldn't. This is why I'd only suggest a Grot (gnoblar) shaman after you have 3 butchers, they are there for more cheap MW output, it's the one huge weakness you have.

3 Butchers will cost 420p + 1 shaman for 80p so total 500p. Or is that better to have 1 Butcher, 3 Shamans (great maw, arcane bolt, mystic shield and da bad moon) for total 380p? I guess 3 butcher is the better option for 3 cauldrons which is only 120p more expensive. I like your point by the way. I just got 2 butchers with cauldron, a firebelly.. I guess I need to buy a Butcher into my Warhammer-bag if it's recommended  

On 2018-03-04 at 9:53 AM, Solaris said:

They'd be better for a few reasons, yeah. They are good for scoring objectives, since that is based on model count. Give them bows, and they can chip away at the enemy a little bit while standing on the objective. With 20 models you can also cover a lot of board space if you want to use them as a screen. For example, if you face an army that can charge you the first turn having a long line of grots in front of your army will help a lot.

I see! Thats great. I'll think about that into my army in future. And still, Gitmob Grots is better than Gnoblars at the same cost and is battleline!

 

10 hours ago, Fridge_Opener said:

I've found that gutbusters have potential against most lists they just don't have enough speed. You have the staying power to hold onto your objectives, you've the alpha strike deterrent in grot hordes, you've better shooting than people expect (scraplaunchers and leadbelchers who are also strong in combat) and your characters are solid!! You can do well against most armies if you play the mission well but the issue is players of equal standards will beat you more often than not with tier 1 armies! You just don't have the speed to get the major in knife to the heart for example and some match ups can be auto lose games depending on the scenario. I've found they're an army that you need a couple of games (where you could get really smashed!!!)  to get a feel for it but after that it really slows down for you and you can hold your own. w/out a codex we won't be placing in tournaments anytime soon but such is life!!

Interesting to hear your reply. Thats true.

I'm gonna to play 5 scenarios at the tournament and there are all included from GHB17 except the Knife to Heart which isn't gonna to use this time. Duality of Death might be a problem for my army if my heroes die, at least I must to be careful with them and try to use them right.

[Malakree]

4 minutes ago, Overtyrant of Destruction said:

I see! Thats great. I'll think about that into my army in future. And still, Gitmob Grots is better than Gnoblars at the same cost and is battleline!

When I field Gitmob Grots I actually have 10/20 of them be gnoblars because I prefer the aesthetics. If you put some of the bows/quivers on the gnoblars or on their bases you can easily have them pass as gitmob. Just make sure you tell your opponent before the match

16 minutes ago, Overtyrant of Destruction said:

3 Butchers will cost 420p + 1 shaman for 80p so total 500p. Or is that better to have 1 Butcher, 3 Shamans (great maw, arcane bolt, mystic shield and da bad moon) for total 380p? I guess 3 butcher is the better option for 3 cauldrons which is only 120p more expensive. I like your point by the way. I just got 2 butchers with cauldron, a firebelly.. I guess I need to buy a Butcher into my Warhammer-bag if it's recommended  

Aye I really do think that for Ogor armies Butchers with cauldrons are one of those models where they just get better the more of them you have. Like if one of them inflicts a MW to himself there is a chance that another of the butchers will proc the heal to get him straight back up. Also the hit stacking when it procs is just so massive it's unreal.

[PlasticCraic]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

When I field Gitmob Grots I actually have 10/20 of them be gnoblars because I prefer the aesthetics. If you put some of the bows/quivers on the gnoblars or on their bases you can easily have them pass as gitmob. Just make sure you tell your opponent before the match

Aye I really do think that for Ogor armies Butchers with cauldrons are one of those models where they just get better the more of them you have. Like if one of them inflicts a MW to himself there is a chance that another of the butchers will proc the heal to get him straight back up. Also the hit stacking when it procs is just so massive it's unreal.

Agreed, and agreed!  The Gnoblars are so characterful, I love the aesthetic.

And yeah, the way I like to counteract the Butchers' diciness is to spam them!  That way you have the best chance of getting what you need, when you need it from the Cauldron.  

There are overlapping synergies as you described (wounding themselves and healing back up).  And with three spells (Great Maw is excellent), three is the minimum I would run - probably 4 for a little redundancy.  140 isn't bad for what they bring IMO.

I do think that randomness something that holds the army back from being truly competitive.  If we get GH18 Allegiance Abilities, I would like to see a way to mitigate that.  Either a Command Trait ("I Make The Decisions Around Here") that lets you choose the result for the Cauldron (and the Tyrant's Big Name), and / or some kind of "Lucky Cauldron" artefact that allows you to choose (or at least reroll) the result for the Butcher.

[PlasticCraic]

Also, if anyone is interested, there is a FB group that is taking off. 

Search for "AOS Gutbusters" - it's gone from 2 to 70+ members in a week.

[Overtyrant of Destruction]

On 2018-03-05 at 9:36 PM, Malakree said:

When I field Gitmob Grots I actually have 10/20 of them be gnoblars because I prefer the aesthetics. If you put some of the bows/quivers on the gnoblars or on their bases you can easily have them pass as gitmob. Just make sure you tell your opponent before the match

Yeah, thats cool! I'm not sure if that will allow to the tournament but I guess it will no be problem.

On 2018-03-05 at 9:36 PM, Malakree said:

Aye I really do think that for Ogor armies Butchers with cauldrons are one of those models where they just get better the more of them you have. Like if one of them inflicts a MW to himself there is a chance that another of the butchers will proc the heal to get him straight back up. Also the hit stacking when it procs is just so massive it's unreal.

Precisely, I haven't thought about that in early!

 

On 2018-03-05 at 11:21 PM, PlasticCraic said:

Also, if anyone is interested, there is a FB group that is taking off. 

Search for "AOS Gutbusters" - it's gone from 2 to 70+ members in a week.

Cool, I found that now, thanks  The Goldtooth Tribe will reunion at a beautiful day. I know the secret.. Greasus actually hasn't been killed, he was just fainted by his own mace 

 

Anyways, now I've changed my army list and this maybe will look better, against most all of armies and hopefully tier 1, esp for all 5 scenarios except Knife to Heart which will not be in the tournament.

Leaders
Tyrant w. Great Gutsgouger - Might is Right (+1 to wound), Battlebrew (so that his double damage rate increases a lot)
Butcher w. cauldron
Butcher w. cauldron
Butcher w. cauldron
Moonclan Grot Shaman
Icebrow Hunter - Rockeye (+1 to hit against the selected enemy unit, so his missile weapons and melee rate increases)

Battleline
12 Ogors w. pairs of weapons
12 Ogors w. pairs of weapons
20 Gitmob Grots w. bows

Other
6 Frost Sabres
2 Frost Sabres (or 2x4 ?)

Battalion
Skal

1970/2000p

If this seems good, I'll plan to buy and paint them  

[Fridge_Opener]

The issue with the list is the lack of rend across the board you've no way of dealing with armour outside the boss and you've only three attacks (or four, off hand can't remember for that weapon) hitting on threes so you'll never get through seraphon or chaos warriors or sigmarines etc. Also moonclan are better than gitmob so since points wise they fit I'd put them in instead 

[Malakree]

4 hours ago, Fridge_Opener said:

The issue with the list is the lack of rend across the board you've no way of dealing with armour outside the boss and you've only three attacks (or four, off hand can't remember for that weapon) hitting on threes so you'll never get through seraphon or chaos warriors or sigmarines etc. Also moonclan are better than gitmob so since points wise they fit I'd put them in instead 

Gitmob are cheaper, they are also basically equivalent with bows. If you have 60 then gitmob with bows is way better. Add in a gitmob shaman and it's way way better.

[rattila]

Gitmob are cheaper but need to be boosted by a 80pts-chaman. Moonclan have more assets: they can have stabbas (which is good if you take only 20 grots), they have magics flags (+1 save vs missile weapons) and they can take barbed nets for -1 To hit. 

I guess that you will take the grots to hold an obj? Then the moonclan are far superior, even with the bow, due To their resilience.

 

In fact, the only way To make gitmob grob better at even points is to compare 60 gitmob with bow and the chaman and 60 moonclan.

[Malakree]

So the big thing is that the  gitmob +hit works for their bows while the Moonclan +wound doesn't. 

If you go with melee weapons Moonclan are far superior for all the reasons listed. With bows gitmob are better if you factor in points cost.

At 40 you save 60 points meaning a grot shaman is only 20 points more than the Moonclan grots.

Again this is only if they are using bows and specifically if the points reduction is meaningful.

[rattila]

23 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So the big thing is that the  gitmob +hit works for their bows while the Moonclan +wound doesn't

I missed that! Then my apologies you are right.

[Malakree]

18 minutes ago, rattila said:

I missed that! Then my apologies you are right.

 easy mistake to make. I also originally assumed they functioned the same way. 

I think the netters also replace the bows in moonclan? So every netter is one less shot. Like most destruction warscrolls they are showing their age sadly  

[Fridge_Opener]

On 3/10/2018 at 7:16 PM, Malakree said:

Gitmob are cheaper, they are also basically equivalent with bows. If you have 60 then gitmob with bows is way better. Add in a gitmob shaman and it's way way better.

But he doesn't have 60 of them, nor does he have the gitmob shaman

[Solaris]

In the end, it all depends on how you intend to use them. With bows, I prefer Gitmob over Moonclan. They rarely get shot at (what fool would shoot my Grots instead of something that's actually important), so the +1 to saves vs shooting banner doesn't add anything. Netters don't add much either, because most of the time the unit won't be anywhere near combat. A unit of 20 Gitmob get a 50% damage increase compared to a unit of 20 Moonclan from the +1 to hit, and the larger the unit gets, the bigger the bonus. The bonus to hit also synergizes really well with Sneaky Stabbin'. Gitmob Grots with bows simply make for very versatile units, in my experience. I don't see any reason to pay 30 points more for bonuses that I don't need.

With melee weapons, it's a totally different story. Moonclan Grots with melee weapons actually make use of all the bonuses, and can therefore be worth the extra 30 points. In addition, Fanatics are excellent board control (although sadly quite expensive now), so that also speaks in the favor of Moonclan Grots with melee weapons.

[Overtyrant of Destruction]

Interesting!

Now back to Ogre Kingdoms (Gutbsuters and BCR) without some of Orruks and Goblins.

I want to ask you guys about 12 Ogors vs 6 Ironguts with the same cost 400p, 4/6 mournfangs 320/480p, or 6 maneaters 440p.

For me, 12 ogors win because they stand better than others do with the cost. Ironguts who have save 4+ and bravery 7, range 2" is the different of the perspective when it's about a situation where all models have to get in combat so have Ironguts better of it and if they have buffed with the mystic shield they are a lot better. But when it's about wounds, win Ogors a lot with it. Maneaters are too expensive with their wounds and save 5+ idd, however they have great at combat with 1"/4/3+/3+/-1/2 and with their ability they can improve. The problem is if a model is downed (which is like easy as normal Ogors do), 73,33p throws. Mournfang is great with his movement, save 4+, 6 wounds and hornblower. However, I didn't like with 2 mournfangs with gargant hackers, they in two have total 4 attacks with 4+ to hit, while ironguts with 3 models have total 10 (1 extra attack for Gutlord) attacks to damage 3 per wound like mournfang, can reroll in once per game if someone Ogors have fled.

What do you think about it, which unit of them do you prefer best?

[rattila]

I would prefer the maneaters. dont forget the missile weapon. Being able To run+charge can lead to use them as cavalry.  Plus the fluff is awesome and you can make great models.

 

I think what you take depends of the rest of your army.

 

Ogor are battleline and that is a  big plus.