Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[DantePQ]

Yes I love all those models as well and I think it's very well balanced and checks a lot of boxes, probably harder to play then Aspect of the Sea version but when played well I think it could be much better, also I find one unit of Reavers quite nice as it could a) deepstrike along SoulScryer and some Thralls/Guards b) with Briomdar bonus and 8'' it's hugely mobile and can swoop on objective c) could guard objective 

I think this army will also look amazing with color scheme I have in mind (I will have Ascpet painted as well). 

[robinlvalentine]

Anyone else tempted to use the model Mistweaver Saih as their Tidecaster? Not a fan of the default model's closed-eyes dopey expression! 

[DantePQ]

7 minutes ago, robinlvalentine said:

Anyone else tempted to use the model Mistweaver Saih as their Tidecaster? Not a fan of the default model's closed-eyes dopey expression! 

I will both  as I will probably two anyway I will try to kitbash different head on her as I also don't like her head. 

[Acid_Nine]

 

11 minutes ago, robinlvalentine said:

Anyone else tempted to use the model Mistweaver Saih as their Tidecaster? Not a fan of the default model's closed-eyes dopey expression! 

oh my god yes. I hate that stupid expression and helmet. even her picture next to the rituals makes me want to get rid of it. And I may use a loremaster instead, I dunno yet.

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

Problem with Eidolon is that he is very passive, you can't do much combat with him - and he is far from tanky. If you want double -1 to hit his spells are 12'' so :

a) he must be postioned somewhere near your enemy and you units to boost their bravery 

b) there is good chance that enemy has some options to unbid his spell/spells (sure he can still re-roll )

Also his damage output is average and you got to use artifact on him so it's whole lot of points used basically to buff bravery and debuff hits. 

That's why I'm looking more and more at Volturnos :

Volturnos - General 

Tidecaster + Tide of Fear + Sands of Infinity 

Tidecaster + Abyssal Darkness 

SoulScrye 

2x30 Thralls 

2x6 Ishlean Guards 

10 Reavers

For Enclave I'm thinking Briomdar (or Ionarch(, game plan is easy -  with SoulScrye and Briomdar ability Thralls are ultra mobile, shield units with eells, 3rd turn (or 2nd thanks to Tidecaster ability) with Volturnos ability will be huge ,Reavers are to guard objectives - as they are not that bad with 2A each in melee and a lot of shooting attacks at close range. I can still cast two -1 to hit spells and have a lot of bodies. With 3 leaders to cast Rituals it's also nice bonus to have. Also 141 wounds is great number.

Volturnos is obviously great here - he will harrass weaker enemy units, play a part in Duality and boost Bravery and give nice re-rolls of 1 to hit, also two Ship Vortexes are nice to get some extra protection.  

First, list looks cool enough. But I try to focus on the down sides of list, as most folks thst make thier list know the good sides. 

 

I think here the abyssal darkness probably wouldn't be a spell of take here that is to say you aren't locked into spell between games anyway. 

 

But since the tidevaster can't really keep up it's only mildly useful if you don't move your units to far up and get cover for maybe the top of turn 2?? Other than that I don't see the tidecaster really  keeping up with anyonr?? 

 

As you say the thralls will be hanging out with the scryer?? Will be tough to use the thralls aggressively while positioning the rise caster in such a way that her bubble helps them. Then for the eels if they are deploying on the table, the tide caster would be very hard pressed to keep up and use the bubble. 

 

If also consider maybe not making volturnous your general and instead making the soul scryer or tide caster your general. That way you could take the bravery bubble, which would stay with volturnous bravery bubble. You'd miss out on the high tide buffs, but with this list unless your keeping your thralls off for a ling times, I'd expect your forces to be quite meager come turn 3 were the vulternous  buffs might not even swing the game. 

[DantePQ]

@mmimzie it's all match-up oriented, 

Bascially one of the Tidecasters will be casting mystic shield anyway, and abyssal darkness has synergy with whatever will be in range and it's great spell when playing objective game as you can buff anyunit that is guarding objective, also there aren't any reliable spells and Abyssal Darkness is easy to cast as well. Why wouldn't Tidecaster keep up ? It's easy to keep him near Thralls/Reavers or even Eeels (with Briomdar bonus)

Thralls won't be always with Scryer , it's one of the options but but very much battleplan and match up oriented, I can deepstrike thralls + tidecaster, or reaver and eels or Volturnos whatever will work in certain scenario. As I said Abyssal Darkness is extra spell in majority of cases one tidecaster will be casting mystic shield anyway, and it's great secondary spell. 

Yep there is still option to make Tidecaster General but it remains to be seen how useful Volturnos ability will be, I doubt it will be that crucial as I'm not that crazy about goin all in on turn 3. Actually Tidecaster could be very nice as a general with Lord of Storm and Sea Trait (but since it's wholly within it's problematic but will work well with Abyssal Darkness) or some other ability. 

[Rou Dantes]

Picked up my first AoS stuff! Got the Idoneth Deepkin Battletome, the General's Handbook, and a box of Namarti Thralls for starters.

My plan is to magnetize some of my Dark and Craftworld Eldar so I can swap out their sci-fi weapons for fantasy ones, letting me use them for either game. I also plan to do the same with the AoS minis I get, for instance, the Thralls are going to pull double duty as Wracks for 40k. My 40k army is Corsair themed and I've already used a bunch of old and new(er) Black Ark Corsair minis to customize them since I don't much care for the Forgeworld Corsair kit.

The Idoneth flying sea creature mounts gave me the idea to sculpt or kitbash some kind of sea serpents or something to attach to the bottoms of my Dark Eldar Raiders, but I'm not sure what rules to use for those. I have 3 Raiders and a Ravager and I'd like to use all of them to make an Aelf Corsair/Deepkin fleet.

I could maybe turn a Ravager into a Leviadon, building a large creature to carry it, replacing the front gunner with a guy holding the reigns, swaping the two side guns with harpoon launchers, and giving the helmsman some drums.

I was thinking I could use Raiders as Alopex's if I create smaller creatures than the one I do for the Leviadon, since the Alopex has the same number of guns as a Raider, but the Raider looks like it should carry people and the Alopex definitely can't. Maybe I could have a few Raider crew models hanging onto the sides of the ship with spears and such to represent the Alopex's melee attacks?

I'm a bit hesitant to use either of those two warscrolls since: 1. I have quite a few Raiders I'd like to use; 2. I do plan on getting those actual Idoneth models because they're bad ass; and 3. from what I've heard of the Battletome reviews, people seem to be rather unimpressed by those 2 units' stats. Admittedly, my ability to understand the Mathhammer is extremely hindered by my learning disability, so I don't know how much of that may just be overly dramatic internet whining about the units being less the OP.  I mean, none of these units have really been battle tested very much to see how they actually perform with all of the Idoneth special rules, and it seems to me that looking at the stats of a unit can only tell you so much when the unit also has completely unique special rules that may have a drastic effect on its performance.

Do any of you have ideas for what a flying dark elf ship could be "counted-as"?

Maybe the High Elf Skycutter? Are those any good in game? Maybe it could represent a flying monster, like a Black Dragon? I don't really know anything about those either.

I could get really crazy and make sea monsters with legs, like a giant crab or a lobster, and use chariot rules instead of something that flies. How good are the Dark Elf Chariots?

I was also thinking about some of the Kharadron ships, but they're not allies with the Deepkin, so I think that could cost me some benefits I probably wouldn't want to give up if it's just a Mixed Order army. But I am also super unfamiliar with all of that as well.

Since the Idoneth are allies with the Stormcast, maybe I could use the rules for something like Tempestor Dracoths, Vanguard Paladors, or Drakesworn Templars? Unsure about the size of those models, but I suppose it comes down to how big of a monster I want to put the raider on. The Drakesworn Templars can fly, which is nice, as I think I'd prefer a flying sea dragon creature over a giant crustacean, but would I ever want to field more than one Drakesworn at a time? Or would that be way over the top? I'm very unfamiliar with the Stormcast. I like the Palladors' speed and their aetheric compass and ride the wind abilities, but those might be too small.

Whatever I use, it has to be at least the size of a Dark Eldar Raider, or bigger (since I can make a creature of any size to go under it), and it should be something that goes well with the Idoneth. Preferably something that can fly and preferably something I could reasonably field more than one of (though both of those points are more flexible). Suggestions?

[jamierk]

Arriving late to this thread, could someone point me towards the combo that allows thralls to be a good tarpit? I presume its something other than their base rules?

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, jamierk said:

Arriving late to this thread, could someone point me towards the combo that allows thralls to be a good tarpit? I presume its something other than their base rules?

For tarpit thralls. Your best bet is namarti corp + morphann. Giving you atleast 6 + thralls per turn from one soul render, and 4+ from each additional soulrender you bring.  From there you can also bring the  lilandra's last lament artifact so that once you can stop a drmatic battle shock from claim one or multiple whole units. 

[Luke1705]

3 hours ago, jamierk said:

Arriving late to this thread, could someone point me towards the combo that allows thralls to be a good tarpit? I presume its something other than their base rules?

They’re really not. Say what you will about the two turns they get cover (or more with the turtle/psychic) and the ability to mystic shield a squad. I’m not buying Thralls as tanks. That’s what the unrendable eels do. Cover plus mystic shield or mystic shield plus the charge puts them at 2+ immune to rend.

 

Allies also give us much better tanky options IMO

[Trebuchenanigans]

5 hours ago, robinlvalentine said:

Anyone else tempted to use the model Mistweaver Saih as their Tidecaster? Not a fan of the default model's closed-eyes dopey expression! 

 This, or use the void drummer head (from Leviadon kit, hope there's a spare) on the default model. Probably works better if you're going a darker enclave, such as Mor'Phann.

I had also considered trying to get some Wracks helms for my Thrall modems, and going for an all-helmed army, with a more sinister look.

[mmimzie]

Something that sounds pretty fun to me is a ishlaen super save combo of some sort. 

a list like:
enclave-Ionrach
Royal court:
King (Surging tide + bravery or spurs) 
Soul scryer
Tidecaster
AoSea (sands of infinity)
9xIslaen
3xmorrsar
3xmorrsar
5xSisters of the thorn

Then you get the Ishlaen to a 2+ rerollable mortal wounds on 4+ charging turn 1.  All the spell wiht +1 to cast, and the edolan potentially rerolling his spells. Protecting abit from mortal wounds with unbinds. Only thing is if you want to get -1 to hit on line you can't till turn 2.  Maybe not tooo disimilar too frost pheonix. 

could drop royal court and morrsar for soul scryer 2 units of 3 islaen and another tide caster. Then you could also have a spare spell to have the AoSea cast his -1 to hit and bravery spell, and still potantially turn 1 charge. 

[jamierk]

Those Thralls look like they have some very solid damage output. Old fashioned hammer (thralls) and anvil (eels) then? Having your buff characters untargatable by shooting will help plenty also.

[Knight of Ruin]

I dont see why fuethan is so well liked. I sure see that it gives a few bonusses but it comes at the cost og losing ebb tide.

 

Now if you are not running eels i can see why that is not a problem. But not running eels means you sort of waste the mount buff.

 

If you run eels then ebb tide helps them keep alive but also still probide a loy more damage in the late turn. And ishlaen will be better soaking that round too. 

On top of that the hit reroll is also gainable by dohm hain or bringing a king for akhrlians or lotann for thralls (althougj if you are just running namarti morphann becomes arguably better).

My top picks so far are:

Ionrach if running wizards and (after faq) volt (or allies).

Dhom hain if you want to be charging, i.e run akhelians.

Briomdar if you like shenanigans.. But if running mostly akhelians these effects become dubipus at best. You got eels to go to far away objevtives so i dont think you want your namarti away from the home field. And alhelians already fly.

 

Nautilar has a really nicr spell. But the rerolls only when being charged is rough if your running akhelians, as they tend to like charging.

[Cookiez]

I think you overlook some possibilities focusing too much on Thralls. While great, they have huge footstep, low bravery and movement. I really think they are great and I already have 30 (in boxes, but hey!), but even your own ship will block their movement - remember that you have to measure the movement vertically as well, so you have to climb the first broadside, climb down, move on board, then climb again the second side and jumb down. I have to test more, but I think 6 to 9 models unit of Morrsarr moving from one charge to another can cause enough damage to pay off. Hell, they won me my one and only game so far - killed 50 bloodletters and 5 warriors, burning 2 objectives. With 14" move, run and charge in the second turn, rerolling 1's to hit, 1 to wound on the eels with Fuethan and maybe some +1 to hit from terrain and small footstep they can fly over the table wherever they want. Sometimes math is not the only way to go and the functionality takes over - and I belive this is the case here.

[mmimzie]

41 minutes ago, Knight of Ruin said:

I dont see why fuethan is so well liked. I sure see that it gives a few bonusses but it comes at the cost og losing ebb tide.

 

Now if you are not running eels i can see why that is not a problem. But not running eels means you sort of waste the mount buff.

 

If you run eels then ebb tide helps them keep alive but also still probide a loy more damage in the late turn. And ishlaen will be better soaking that round too. 

On top of that the hit reroll is also gainable by dohm hain or bringing a king for akhrlians or lotann for thralls (althougj if you are just running namarti morphann becomes arguably better).

My top picks so far are:

Ionrach if running wizards and (after faq) volt (or allies).

Dhom hain if you want to be charging, i.e run akhelians.

Briomdar if you like shenanigans.. But if running mostly akhelians these effects become dubipus at best. You got eels to go to far away objevtives so i dont think you want your namarti away from the home field. And alhelians already fly.

 

Nautilar has a really nicr spell. But the rerolls only when being charged is rough if your running akhelians, as they tend to like charging.

I pretty much agree with most all of this?? I'm alittle softer on nautilar as well because while you do definitly want to be the charger, your Islaen eels will undoutedly take a charge, and the better reroll  could really come in handy. Not to mention your also running a king which could make the other reroll benefits alittle less useful as your eels can just get re-roll 1's from the king. Plus not to mention the very nice spell nautillar has.  Like your take of Ionrach, even sans allies the +1 to cast can be invaluable 

 

40 minutes ago, Cookiez said:

I think you overlook some possibilities focusing too much on Thralls. While great, they have huge footstep, low bravery and movement. I really think they are great and I already have 30 (in boxes, but hey!), but even your own ship will block their movement - remember that you have to measure the movement vertically as well, so you have to climb the first broadside, climb down, move on board, then climb again the second side and jumb down. I have to test more, but I think 6 to 9 models unit of Morrsarr moving from one charge to another can cause enough damage to pay off. Hell, they won me my one and only game so far - killed 50 bloodletters and 5 warriors, burning 2 objectives. With 14" move, run and charge in the second turn, rerolling 1's to hit, 1 to wound on the eels with Fuethan and maybe some +1 to hit from terrain and small footstep they can fly over the table wherever they want. Sometimes math is not the only way to go and the functionality takes over - and I belive this is the case here.

Yeah basicly this, but i think alot of this has to come from play testing. Not to mention some of out different opinions can come from not being able to get enough games in. I'm lucky enough to have a few buddys that dont mind a few proxies when getting a new army. So i've got to mess around with about 6 games <.< but even that isn't really enough to get the most optimal feel, as this army  can go in a million different directions. 
 

As a side note is the most competive aspect we can really throw down a tidecaster on a balewind throwing out vorpal malestorms??? I think that might be the case. 36*6"  on that range is monsterous, you could hit several units just out right.  Out side of the vortex, if maybe it gets nerfed or buffed etc steed of tides from another tide caster can get you something very similar.  The vortex lets you get more milage out of your malestorm and makes it more reliable, while the extra tide caster can bring additional utility to your army. Also steed of tides is a considerably easier spell to get off early than a bale wind vortex
 

[whispersofblood]

Fuethan is great because:

It puts a huge mental load on the opponent going first, Since we always strike first in the 2nd turn, meaning if they choose to go first they are at serious risk of a powerful double turn, and even if you don't double turn you still go first in combat everywhere and line up the dbl turn for when you run and charge and re-roll 1's to hit

its flat rr1 are in every phase, letting it work with shooting attacks as well

It makes the King (though a good beat stick when geared) and his point cost non-mandatory, which is a big deal in a relatively elite army

Also reversing the tide for cover in turn 4  turn has worked pretty well for securing against losing objectives, and grinding out the final combats

Its bad for Thralls I suppose, because they generally lack movement, and if you have to load up on characters anyway most of its benefits are lost.

I think we will see maybe 3 top competitive builds out of this book. But Fuethan will be one of them, and that is good for the faction since they will impact the meta differently.

[Acid_Nine]

8 hours ago, Knight of Ruin said:

I dont see why fuethan is so well liked. I sure see that it gives a few bonusses but it comes at the cost og losing ebb tide.

 

Now if you are not running eels i can see why that is not a problem. But not running eels means you sort of waste the mount buff.

 

If you run eels then ebb tide helps them keep alive but also still probide a loy more damage in the late turn. And ishlaen will be better soaking that round too. 

On top of that the hit reroll is also gainable by dohm hain or bringing a king for akhrlians or lotann for thralls (althougj if you are just running namarti morphann becomes arguably better).

My top picks so far are:

Ionrach if running wizards and (after faq) volt (or allies).

Dhom hain if you want to be charging, i.e run akhelians.

Briomdar if you like shenanigans.. But if running mostly akhelians these effects become dubipus at best. You got eels to go to far away objevtives so i dont think you want your namarti away from the home field. And alhelians already fly.

 

Nautilar has a really nicr spell. But the rerolls only when being charged is rough if your running akhelians, as they tend to like charging.

(You really think Volt is only going to be ionrach? It says in his warscroll he inspires all enclaves so I assume he can be used in everyone's enclave)

but largely agree with everything, especially Fuethlan. Holy Carp that ebb tide thing is a serious nerf to the akhelians. 

Also what people don't talk about for dhom Akhelians is that they are super good against monsters, more than anyone else it seems, with their free re-roll and all. Don't know the mathhammer of it, but with a charge of spear eels against a monster, discharge including, I think that there could be little that can take it.

[Knight of Ruin]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

Fuethan is great because:

It puts a huge mental load on the opponent going first, Since we always strike first in the 2nd turn, meaning if they choose to go first they are at serious risk of a powerful double turn, and even if you don't double turn you still go first in combat everywhere and line up the dbl turn for when you run and charge and re-roll 1's to hit

its flat rr1 are in every phase, letting it work with shooting attacks as well

It makes the King (though a good beat stick when geared) and his point cost non-mandatory, which is a big deal in a relatively elite army

Also reversing the tide for cover in turn 4  turn has worked pretty well for securing against losing objectives, and grinding out the final combats

Its bad for Thralls I suppose, because they generally lack movement, and if you have to load up on characters anyway most of its benefits are lost.

I think we will see maybe 3 top competitive builds out of this book. But Fuethan will be one of them, and that is good for the faction since they will impact the meta differently.

But that assumes you run a tidecaster as general and thus consequently arent focussing on eels as they wont be battleline. Sure you fight first in phase 2 but turn 1 will be retreat plus charge which will be completely lost, and turn 3 which will be run and charge will also be lost because you will be in combat because of turn 2. 

1 hour ago, Acid_Nine said:

(You really think Volt is only going to be ionrach? It says in his warscroll he inspires all enclaves so I assume he can be used in everyone's enclave)

but largely agree with everything, especially Fuethlan. Holy Carp that ebb tide thing is a serious nerf to the akhelians. 

Also what people don't talk about for dhom Akhelians is that they are super good against monsters, more than anyone else it seems, with their free re-roll and all. Don't know the mathhammer of it, but with a charge of spear eels against a monster, discharge including, I think that there could be little that can take it.

Volt is a king that fights with all enclavef but he is from ionrach according to the fluff. However since he is unique he cant get traits, and the ionrach enclaved say that a general must take that trait. Imo, rai is that volt can be the general but simply wont get the trait. Raw that is dubious atm.

 

I rolled a few dice for an hour long to see how charging 6 morrsarr do ehen they reroll 1s to hit and reroll 1s to wound. I concluded that its ca 25-40 damage against a 4+ save plus battleshock. This includes their once per game mortal wounds.

 

The benefit i feel of eels over thralls is that its a lot easier to get them where they are needed. 

[mmimzie]

5 minutes ago, Knight of Ruin said:

But that assumes you run a tidecaster as general and thus consequently arent focussing on eels as they wont be battleline. Sure you fight first in phase 2 but turn 1 will be retreat plus charge which will be completely lost, and turn 3 which will be run and charge will also be lost because you will be in combat because of turn 2. 

Volt is a king that fights with all enclavef but he is from ionrach according to the fluff. However since he is unique he cant get traits, and the ionrach enclaved say that a general must take that trait. Imo, rai is that volt can be the general but simply wont get the trait. Raw that is dubious atm.

 

I rolled a few dice for an hour long to see how charging 6 morrsarr do ehen they reroll 1s to hit and reroll 1s to wound. I concluded that its ca 25-40 damage against a 4+ save plus battleshock. This includes their once per game mortal wounds.

 

The benefit i feel of eels over thralls is that its a lot easier to get them where they are needed. 

A knight speaking some of my own language.  You will have to take tax thralls or whatever if the tidecaller is your general putting you ~400+ pts in debt to your battle line. While losing the ability to retreat and charge in those later turns which is pretty good, but gain the ability to get a turn 1 charge. You can get the same exact ability to turn one charge for 140pts (or 340pts/580pts) depending on how you slice it if you take the royal court. Which lets you take the surging tide artifact on top of your normal artifacts, and  gives you +3" move command ability for a total of +4" to your move, and with the scryer another +3 to your insuing charge.  Allowing you a turn 1 charge.

He should beable to be general for ionrach as morathi has an FAQ question that says she can be general but doesn't get the trait.  As i understand it, so not so dubious??

I'd agree the eels are better where they need to be and i'd expand it to also that your more likely to get all or more of a % of your models actualy into combat against what you want to fight.

Speaking more on morrsarr?? do you guys think a turn 1 charge is required??? I'm think a turn 1 morrsarr charge might be really much required to get that bang for your buck. You charge in 6-9eels turn 1, if you get counter charged you zap to get you out of dodge, and then retreat turn 2, and then recharge again turn 3. (in an ideal word etc).  Using the zap more as a defensive tool against enemy chargers, rather than an offensive tool. 

[Richelieu]

1 minute ago, mmimzie said:

He should beable to be general for ionrach as morathi has an FAQ question that says she can be general but doesn't get the trait.  As i understand it, so not so dubious??

This is correct.  Volt can be the general, he simply won't get the command trait.  There is zero reason the two identical circumstances would be treated differently.

[corsairjoe]

Question regarding Thralls. Is it possible to build them with just swords/glaives? Not a huge fan of the axe bits.

[robinlvalentine]

8 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

This is correct.  Volt can be the general, he simply won't get the command trait.  There is zero reason the two identical circumstances would be treated differently.

Rules-wise, this seems right. But thematically it's quite odd - in the fluff, it seems like half the reason Ionrach are so big on making allies is because they're following Volt's lead. The idea that an army he leads would *lose* an allies bonus is odd. As I say, as it stands I'd definitely say you're right to interpret those rules to say he can't take the trait, but it feels like something GW should probably nudge a bit to better fit the lore. 

[ianob]

Has anyone given any thought as to whether soulscryer/seeker of souls stacks?

its not worded with the usual “units that have had this ability used on them by any soulscryer” to prevent stacking so it looks like it does.

[mmimzie]

2 minutes ago, ianob said:

Has anyone given any thought as to whether soulscryer/seeker of souls stacks?

its not worded with the usual “units that have had this ability used on them by any soulscryer” to prevent stacking so it looks like it does.

As it's written, it stacks. The only thing is you still ahve to be within 12" of the target unit meaning even with +9" to your charge you still need a model to atleast touch within 12" of the target. Which i think honestly is enough of a limit???

 

48 minutes ago, corsairjoe said:

Question regarding Thralls. Is it possible to build them with just swords/glaives? Not a huge fan of the axe bits.

I see your post, but i don't know the answer sorry. I haven't cared to build thralls. Did mess with a friends already built thralls, but didn't think to ask about additional weapons.