Another tome ruined for Named Chars

[WoollyMammoth]

Here we go, another tome crapped on by the idiotic Named Char restrictions. That makes 3/3 this year, congrats GW, you're batting 1.000

Take Morathi as your general - and lose all  command traits, and from wording you lose 3/4 temples as well (general must take command trait, which Morathi cannot ever).

OR take a Cauldron of Blood general, make it 4+++ to mortals, or take Hag Nar and everything in the army is just 5++ with the option of re-rolls.  (bonkers)

You can still take Morathi, all you are losing is the ability to double attack two units - instead you use the cauldron to double attack only 1.

But, its much more complicated than that - in order to get two units attacking, Morathi has to be in the thick of battle, and being in the thick of battle means that one silly Arcane Bolt can make her hulk out, causing you to lose all command abilities and instead have a half-dead monster that you cannot heal by any means.

Instead with a Caundron general, your centerpiece is incredibly resilient, giving everyone +1 save and 5++ with an awesome prayer giving everyone +1 bravery and a badass Avatar of Khaine, and you won't be overly concerned with planting it in the middle of the board where all game it can give its bonuses to all/most of your army and be allowing a free pile in+attack every hero phase consistently. Also you can heal the Cauldron if for some reason it starts to loose too many wounds.

Meanwhile, if you like super-wizard Morathi you can make her 5+++x2 to mortals. Now you aren't afraid to keep her in Aelf-form blasting with spells from the back of the board then late game hulking out with most of her wounds intact. Or drive her up the board with a 5++x2 watching her back.

OR  just take Morathi as your general and let your opponent force her to hulk out, lose all your command, watch your Cauldron die before turn 3 with its measly save and have a fully exposed army with a half dead Morathi in the early game...

The only clear reason to take Morathi is if you want to spend 1000 points on Blood Stalkers, which you are paying a fortune for a handful of -1 rend shooting attacks which only have mortal potential half the time. GW seems to have seen the appeal of this idea of shooting a million shots with Morathi, and pre-nerfed Blood Stalkers hard. They are basically like a unit of Bow Judicators without a 2+ shockbolt bow and with with only 5+ save, and without the ability to be battleline .. for the same cost. Keep in mind that statistically you are causing less than one mortal per turn with this unit. (of 5)

You could also invest in a ton of Heartrenders, which at least you are getting twice the rending shooting attacks, but now you are forced to pick between descending for -2 rend or attacking twice in the first round, and by the second round Morathi could be hulked out and you've lost the reason why you brought so many Heartrenders in the first place (which is inanely wounds-inefficient anyway).

I'm not saying any of this is bad, tons of this stuff is all viable .. you just simply don't make Morathi your general. Doesn't that seem really dumb? Like really, really dumb??  The rules are so much better when you don't make the factions god the general, and instead make some lowly hero  tell Morathi what to do?

Its all centered around the completely arbitrary  Named Char restrictions. If Morahthi could simply take the Command traits, you could field her as the general and have the key 5++ (or -1 to hit in shooting) centered around her, which makes more sense from a lore perspective, a gameplay perspective and a just plain common sense perspective.

This literally happens every tome because of the named char nonsense. Archaon can be 5++ extra save with +1 attacks and +1 to wound with extra stuff in Nurgle, or +1 to wound with auto-fives or sixes for his auto-kill ability in Tzeentch .. but if I let Nagash give +1 attack to skeletons within 6" ... that breaks the game?

Seriously, enough is enough. Remove the Named Char restrictions, at least on command traits (legendary leaders make bad commanders?) so we don't have to play the rules bass akwards to get the most out of the rules.

Write GW and say "please remove the named char restrictions. they are not necessary". Maybe if enough of us do it they will fix this in GH3 and all the tomes open wide up to be enjoyed and played as the lore intends. 

 

[Sheriff]

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

[Double Misfire]

I quite like the 40k system of special/named characters coming with a default warlord (command) trait that you have to use instead of any others available if they're your general, but named characters working the way they do and not being able to take a command trait is fine. The ones that are supposed to be leading your army have already got unique command abilities that you can't get anywhere else to supposedly offset this.

I'm sure the wording forbidding Morathi from being fielded as a part of certain temples as general due to not being able to take a mandatory command trait will be updated in an faq in a fortnight's time.

Morathi doesn't need line of sight to the targets of her command ability or any of her 36" spells. If you're worried about her getting shot off and/or hulking out early just deploy her behind an obscuring piece of scenery (or failing that a Cauldron of Blood!).

Even not taking Morathi as general isn't the end of the world, it just means she's too busy thinking about weighing up what shade of red she's painting her nails or the pros and cons of seducing Kharibdisses (read the book, Tyrion now has a creepier eskimo bro than Malekith) to act as field commander and has appointed one of her minions to do it while she concentrates on the important stuff.

[DantePQ]

I prefer other option as a general next to Morathi her CA is not that good without good shooting units and Slaughter Queen have ability to pile in one unit instead of two. That gives you more flexibility going forward and can play Morathi best as you have CA whole game. 

As you mentioned Cauldron good be ultra hard to move and can attack like a truck with Avatar. Losing CA on Morathi isn't bad at all without very good shooting attacks. 

[ledha]

As a stormcast player who would love to give staunch defender and mirrorshield to my celestant-prime, i feel you

[WoollyMammoth]

@Double Misfire
The 40k system would be much better. I mentioned taking Morathi and having her not be the general, its just completely against the grain of the lore. She can be in the back casting spells whether or not she is the general, but lore wise she should always be the general. No named char has their own built-in command trait to make up for the loss of one, its just a general idea that GW has that named chars are 'too strong' to take extra things and frankly, they are wrong in this. There are plenty of no-namers that are way too strong and named chars that are weak and could greatly benefit from extra rules.  

Thats cute but Morathi would never give up command. She could have a captain directing the field (the way 40k works) but when you make someone else the general, the other hero is literally commanding Morathi, which would never happen. What they did in the LoN book is cement this further by forcing you to take the named char as your general. If you are forced to take Morathi as the general, nobody would play Morathi (other than maybe some fluff game). 

@ledha
Staunch defender would not benefit him much as he is most often charging (or off the board). He can fully benefit from the effects when near a different general with Staunch Defender. Mirrorshield would be great on him and, if that were an option, he would likely be a good cheaper alternate to a stardrake, and would become a lot more popular.  

[Kaleun]

Honestly I dont get the point, why it is a problem that Characters wont choose a trait or artefact.

Morathi already got her stuff and has easily the best Warlord Trait and the Hearth of Khaine as her artefact. Cant be better. Hell I dont wanna see that pesky Staunch Defener now also on that Prime! Snakegodess forbid.

Also that Morathi doesnt get the Covens Abilities is just fine?! She already got her -1 to hit and whe is the queen of all the covens. Why would she bother concealing herself while being such an enhanced beaty? ;-)

Forbidding Characters the Traits and Artefacts are simply balancing issues. The players find out which trait/artefact is best in this and that setup anyway.

[WoollyMammoth]

@Kaleun
I just explained why. There is almost no reason to not make someone else general to give Morathi a 5++ which she badly needs for mortal wound protection. If there weren't any other good command abilities in the army, it would be different but there is always worthwhile command on other generic heroes in every army.

The prime can benefit from staunch defender regardless. +1 save is not going to break the game. The Castellant or any wizard can give him +1 save regardless. 

Morathi being -1 to hit does not help everyone else. There are command traits to help everyone else. Taking Morathi as the general, you forfeit helping the rest of your army.  What is better, one person in your army with -1 to hit or everyone in the army with -1 to hit? 

The balancing issues went out the window a long time ago. You are telling me its fine for "a Durthu" to take a command and an artifact but its super imbalanced if "Neave Blacktalon" did the same? There is no balance, the rules are simply holding the game back. 

[DantePQ]

She is better as second hero and her giving up command is fluffy as she can use others as proxy. And her CA is useless as she will randomly change into form without CA or it would be profitable to change. 

Cauldron plus her is optimal also she already have command Trait and items taking another would be broken. 

Don't get your sour grapes 

[Soulsmith]

Don't take her as your general then? I know ironjawz players used to use a brute unit boss as their general...

[Aginor]

I am not sure I really agree with you. Some named characters are so powerful, I think I'd rather not have them take command traits or artefacts.

Or would you like to fight against Kroak with artefact and one of the Slann traits?
Or Alarielle with artefact and so on?

I see why GW does that. Some stuff just stacks too well.

 

[DantePQ]

She is even better as supportive leader and fluffy as well. Also you don't miss anything as her CA isn't that good without good shooting units and then after she transforms you don't miss having CA 

[thereisnosaurus]

I can understand the frustration, but consider that a faction lord with your choice of command ability would probably end up being a competitive must take unless grossly overcosted. 

Historically, players have generally been more upset when special characters were everywhere/nigh-compulsory in the competitive scene than when they were weaker than an optimised generic, so I think GW is rightly leaning towards making them very unique and interesting choices, but ones with real drawbacks so that they are taken by a subset of players who really want them, not because yoy pretty much have to. 

[Double Misfire]

2 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

The balancing issues went out the window a long time ago. You are telling me its fine for "a Durthu" to take a command and an artifact but its super imbalanced if "Neave Blacktalon" did the same? There is no balance, the rules are simply holding the game back. 

Neave hasn't got a command ability, and Knights-Zephyros are described as hunter/assassins in the background, so she probably isn't really intended to be run as an army general. It's not like you haven't got an awesome looking model with fun thematic rules to lead your Vanguard Chamber themed force anyway.

[Frozenbeast]

2 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

The balancing issues went out the window a long time ago. You are telling me its fine for "a Durthu" to take a command and an artifact but its super imbalanced if "Neave Blacktalon" did the same? There is no balance, the rules are simply holding the game back. 

And still with your non-optimal setting with Morathi as your general you will be able to dash out a massive amount of dmg and MW also having speed of movement and protection when we still have factions that have problems of interaction between their allegiance ability and the unit's own ability making these last ones useless and therefore the unit unplayable. I have not read the book but for what I know about this release DOK have enough potential to be tier 1 army. We moan about wanting a balanced game and when they make an attempt to give us one we find glitches some place else. 

I'd say just play the game and enjoy it or if you don t enjoy it, there are plenty of others to chose from.

ps: Durthu is not Durthu anymore; it's Spirit of Durthu and not classified as named char. you can take multiple of them therefore yes, you can have artifacts and traits.

[WoollyMammoth]

All beside the point. Of course I'm going to take her without making her the general. 

There is no named char which is 'just too powerful' to take a command trait. Nothing you can do with any named char matched what is already totally legal with Archaon. Alarielle would be great with a command trait, maybe then people would be taking her.

Kroak is a specific issue that more has to do with a Vortex - if he could not take a vortex, then it would not be an issue at all for him to take an artifact. People would try to take the Incandescent Rectrices to make him come back to life, but this could easily be FAQ'd that he can't. I would love him with a Coronal Shield as opposed to a vortex. In any case - yes absolutely I would  love for him to be able to take the slaan command traits and an artifact, and this is not going to break the game.

The point is that command traits have started to dominate this game leading to most lists taking a named char that should be the general and not making them the general. This spits in the face of the lore.

The 40k thing would easily solve the problem. I don't care about artifacts, if people are really so scared of named chars taking artifacts then so be it.

I know durthu is 'a durthu', that's what i said. the point was he was written as a named char. When AoS came out his rules were written to be a named char. Hence the insane 6 damage sword. Then the Sylvaneth book decided to not make him a named char without changing his scroll. My point is, there is no rhyme or reason to what is named and what is not named. They could suddenly change Alarielle to "a sylvaneth queen" tomorrow and then she can take artifacts and command. But, if your favorite models are named, you are screwed out of any command. 

[Thorize]

Alarielle  was taken in the more recent tournaments tho...

Remember seeing 2-3 lists with her

[Richelieu]

13 minutes ago, Thorize said:

Alarielle  was taken in the more recent tournaments tho...

Remember seeing 2-3 lists with her

Yeah, it's entirely possible that Morathi will take alarielle's place in those monster mash mixed order lists.  Her snake profile has a damage potential nearly identical to alarielle's but for 120 points cheaper.  

[BURF1]

4 hours ago, ledha said:

As a stormcast player who would love to give staunch defender and mirrorshield to my celestant-prime, i feel you

The difference that would make when the CP comes in T3-T4 is very small.

[Malfunct Bot]

I'd rather not have to face an Alarielle with a 2+ saves ignoring -1 rend thank you very much.

 

Named characters shouldn't have access to artefacts as it's neither fluffy (named characters already have their own special, they shouldn't be finding a suit of super Oak armour lying on the ground everytime before battle) or good for balance (despite your insistence, it'll only serve to make auto-include special character wombo combos like we see constantly in 40k).

While I can agree with giving named characters Command Traits, if they do they should either be pre-selected (again, like in 40k) or be entirely unique to them, again to ensure that people don't just stack the most overpowered abilities on top of each other to create a game breaking behemoth under the pretense of "but it's fluffy".

[Kamose]

Sweet Lard!!!  Cool your jets, buddy!  That's a lot of strong language and extreme negativity based on exactly 0 hours of play-time. 

You seem to be confusing  Matched Play with Narrative gaming.  You also seem to misunderstand the role that named characters play in the game.  Named characters represent individuals from the lore with very specific weapons and personalities.  This is why they can't be customized.  They are characters from the background, from the Narrative.  There's your hint.  Their main purpose is to allow for story telling using famous individuals from the lore.  The exist primarily for Narrative gaming.  They do not exist to boost list strength and dominate 'metas' and do all that mathy, min-maxing type stuff that Matched Play folks like so much.

If you love Morathi, or Alariele, or Nagash so much that you insist on them being your general in order to match your head-canon, then more power to you!  Do it!  Even if your list is less 'optimized', go for it!  I've played Tyranids in 40k since 3rd edition and have loved and used Old One Eye since I first started.  Even when his rules were a literal flaming tire fire (5th ed.), I still used him and had fun.  He actively harmed my lists and I lost games because of him but I still brought him and had fun!

In short, chill.  GW has no obligation to write rules to match the head-fluff of its players.  The battle tome isn't ruined.  The game isn't ruined.  Everything is fine. Nothing is ruined.  

[WoollyMammoth]

4 hours ago, Thorize said:

Alarielle  was taken in the more recent tournaments tho...

Remember seeing 2-3 lists with her

I didn't see any of her at LVO. There may have been one somewhere but I didn't see it and I got a good look at most of what was going on. I saw a bunch of her at LVO last year, but that was when Sylvaneth was the new hotness and Tzeentch wasn't a thing yet. The one guy I played said he didn't like her b/c people focus her down and she always just dies, which is why a Treelord Ancient was his general.

Another case of what I'm talking about, silliness where you take named chars but they are bad as the general.  

Its been a problem since as long as I've been playing warhammer. Named chars are way to costly and restrictive compared to cheap tailor-made  non-named chars.
 

1 hour ago, Malfunct Bot said:

I'd rather not have to face an Alarielle with a 2+ saves ignoring -1 rend thank you very much.

Named characters shouldn't have access to artefacts as it's neither fluffy (named characters already have their own special, they shouldn't be finding a suit of super Oak armour lying on the ground everytime before battle) or good for balance (despite your insistence, it'll only serve to make auto-include special character wombo combos like we see constantly in 40k).

While I can agree with giving named characters Command Traits, if they do they should either be pre-selected (again, like in 40k) or be entirely unique to them, again to ensure that people don't just stack the most overpowered abilities on top of each other to create a game breaking behemoth under the pretense of "but it's fluffy".

I'd love to see Alarielle at 1+ immune to rend 1.  Shes a beautiful model and this might make her more viable. She would still be a hard choice though since mortal wounds will destroy her.

I agree with what you say, artifacts don't bother me that much but the game is centered around command traits. I would be a lot happier with pre-selected ones than none at all.

Command traits tend to  be all over the place from causing some lame damage to key, essential synergy that defines lists. Most  people ignore the former and center armies around the latter. They tend to give Named Chars good command abilities to make up for it, but its rarely enough to make up the difference. Non-named are selected as the general due to their great command, and then they also get to custom-pick a key important command ability as well. 


@Kamose
People tend to make this distinction between 'matched' and 'narrative'. Narrative might be a P2G or 'just taking what i think is cool' but they are all using matched points and rules as the basis regardless. 99% of all games of AoS are based on matched play. 

I completely disagree with your point on named chars. They are most often designed with incredibly powerful rules designed to make a big impact in matched play games. The problem is that they also come with a target on their head, and armies can throw all kinds of incredible damage to get rid of them quickly. GW underestimates how well good lists can get rid of them and rarely to never gives them the protection they need or the protective options to keep them alive. You can see another attempt at this with Morathi's 'only 3 wounds per turn' ability. 

I don't need the book to be out, no play testing is needed to be familiar with how the game works. If you make Morathi your general, you cannot take the Hagg Nar Command trait to give everyone around your general a 5++ save, which can be re-rolled with a prayer. With every book, everyone wants some wombo combo  that GW overlooked. In this case its clearly making the cauldron your general to give everything (inc. Morathi) 5++ save and then having Morathi double pile in. So there you go. They spent so much time making sure the shooting didn't get too crazy with Morathi's double shoot thing that they didn't consider this combo. 

It's awesome, ill be taking it, the book is great, the game is great. 

But, my point still stands. If Nagash is on the battlefield, he should be leading Death. If Alarielle is on the battlefield, she should be leading Sylvaneth. If Morathi is on the battlefield, she should be leading her DoK. This is not "head-fluff" or whatever you want to call it. Having Nagash led by a Wight King is not just non-fluffy, its stupid. Unfortunately, the named char restriction makes this a normal thing in both 'narrative' and 'matched' play. I simply want GW to realize this and fix it. 

 

 

[Burf]

41 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

I didn't see any of her at LVO. There may have been one somewhere but I didn't see it and I got a good look at most of what was going on. I saw a bunch of her at LVO last year, but that was when Sylvaneth was the new hotness and Tzeentch wasn't a thing yet. The one guy I played said he didn't like her b/c people focus her down and she always just dies, which is why a Treelord Ancient was his general.

Another case of what I'm talking about, silliness where you take named chars but they are bad as the general.  

Its been a problem since as long as I've been playing warhammer. Named chars are way to costly and restrictive compared to cheap tailor-made  non-named chars.
 

I'd love to see Alarielle at 1+ immune to rend 1.  Shes a beautiful model and this might make her more viable. She would still be a hard choice though since mortal wounds will destroy her.

I agree with what you say, artifacts don't bother me that much but the game is centered around command traits. I would be a lot happier with pre-selected ones than none at all.

Command traits tend to  be all over the place from causing some lame damage to key, essential synergy that defines lists. Most  people ignore the former and center armies around the latter. They tend to give Named Chars good command abilities to make up for it, but its rarely enough to make up the difference. Non-named are selected as the general due to their great command, and then they also get to custom-pick a key important command ability as well. 


@Kamose
People tend to make this distinction between 'matched' and 'narrative'. Narrative might be a P2G or 'just taking what i think is cool' but they are all using matched points and rules as the basis regardless. 99% of all games of AoS are based on matched play. 

I completely disagree with your point on named chars. They are most often designed with incredibly powerful rules designed to make a big impact in matched play games. The problem is that they also come with a target on their head, and armies can throw all kinds of incredible damage to get rid of them quickly. GW underestimates how well good lists can get rid of them and rarely to never gives them the protection they need or the protective options to keep them alive. You can see another attempt at this with Morathi's 'only 3 wounds per turn' ability. 

I don't need the book to be out, no play testing is needed to be familiar with how the game works. If you make Morathi your general, you cannot take the Hagg Nar Command trait to give everyone around your general a 5++ save, which can be re-rolled with a prayer. With every book, everyone wants some wombo combo  that GW overlooked. In this case its clearly making the cauldron your general to give everything (inc. Morathi) 5++ save and then having Morathi double pile in. So there you go. They spent so much time making sure the shooting didn't get too crazy with Morathi's double shoot thing that they didn't consider this combo. 

It's awesome, ill be taking it, the book is great, the game is great. 

But, my point still stands. If Nagash is on the battlefield, he should be leading Death. If Alarielle is on the battlefield, she should be leading Sylvaneth. If Morathi is on the battlefield, she should be leading her DoK. This is not "head-fluff" or whatever you want to call it. Having Nagash led by a Wight King is not just non-fluffy, its stupid. Unfortunately, the named char restriction makes this a normal thing in both 'narrative' and 'matched' play. I simply want GW to realize this and fix it. 

 

 

If Nagash is on the battlefield he IS leading death. He has to be general.

I will say it is a bit cheesy that Morathi doesn't get Hagg Narr's trait when she founded, built, and rules it.

[Imperial]

Lol. About what this topic? You want Morathi w/o Sorcerres Supreme or The Iron Heart of Khaine for expamle? Or maybe we need cut for Nagash his The Nine Books of Nagash ability or mark it like "default trait"? In each battletome we have page about named characters and why THEY DONT GET TRAITS AND ARTEFACTS! Yes, i want to see Goddrak with Battle Brew and Might is Right, but with d3 MW on 2+ wound roll for mages and 3+ wound roll for heroes he will be completly broken !

[Kramer]

@WoollyMammoth on how many test games is your judgement based?