Earthquake - a must have?

[Changer]

I'm going to start playing with the Fyreslayers this week, and I'm aiming to build an offensive deck that doesn't contain any of the Hold Objective cards.  I've also built a 24 card Ploy/Upgrade deck that doesn't contain Earthquake.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Earthquake is something that I should try to find room for.

• It counters anyone else's Earthquakes.
• It'll prevent other Fyreslayers from getting inspired.
• It'll stop my opponent scoring any Hold Objective cards (unless counter-earthquaked).
• It'll help the progression of my entire warband to get into my opponents territory.

What do you lot think?  Is Earthquake a must have??

[ZephyrExia]

A nasty use is to play Ironskulls boys, play Shattering Terrain (so every model that moves/gets pushed/driven back take a wound), then play earthquake. 

Not only are all of your boys Inspired, but you are closer to objectives, and have dealt damage to every opposing model.

[Changer]

36 minutes ago, ZephyrExia said:

A nasty use is to play Ironskulls boys, play Shattering Terrain (so every model that moves/gets pushed/driven back take a wound), then play earthquake. 

Not only are all of your boys Inspired, but you are closer to objectives, and have dealt damage to every opposing model.

You'd have to time that right though - as Shattering Terrain only works in the next activation.  You could however play Shattering Terrain, hit someone (damage), push them from the attack (damage) and then play earthquake for more damage (but on everyone!)

[Requizen]

Earthquake/Shattering combo doesn't work, since Shattering only damaged during an Activation and Ploys such as Earthquake take place in the Power Phase. 

But I agree that Earthquake is almost an autotake. For Objective decks, you want it basically only to counter enemy Earthquake. Offensive decks want to counter Objective decks with it, or to open up Charge avenues. It's an extremely flexible card.

[BobbyB]

you still wouldn't get the damage from earthquake right? As that's only happening after the activation

[NeverEasy]

Like Requizen and BobbyB said, Shattering Terrain and Earthquake do not combo. Detailed explanation here:

 

[Praetor of Calth]

I'd say it's good for obj based decks, and too counter non-obj based decks.

Obj based decks can use it too counter their opponents "Earthquakes" or even too claim objectives in the last action phase by deliberately positioning their fighters near objectives they want to take. (The only downside being, everyone has to move in the same direction.)

It's also good for for countering obj. based decks for obvious reasons.

I'd certainly put it in my 5 "always take" ploy cards, but that's just me.  For that reason however,  I personally hope we see some sort of counter to it in the remaining two expansions just so it isn't so "essential" in the deck making stage of the game.

[Rhellion]

Earthquake is why I put No Time (I think it's called) in my take so you cannot play any power cards until after the next model's activation. 

[Biboune]

Earthquake is very good to mess with objective based decks, so objective based deck should have it to counter... it.

But if you opponent don't have Earthquake, your is most likely to be useless. Wait to see the meta, may be with less objective base decks, Earthquake will no be played by a lot. People will still have 10, 11 may be 12 ploys in their deck and their is other very good cards to be in so...Having a Earthquake to counter a Earthquake that may be his the opponent deck, may not, is not the unique option.

Some push ploys can partially counter it: supremacy will be lost, may be not the rest.

No Time, can be used after the 4th activation to prevent it, it also can be useful in other situation.

Forceful Denial has 50% chances to counter it and it can be used against other ploys.

 

[Sleboda]

Earthquake is one of those cards that nearly invalidates entire warbands, and as such, it is an auto-include. The stunties are screwed with it, and the thing is, it's not hard to get.

 

As an opponent of the slayers, you have a 70% chance of getting it in round one if it's in your deck. No matter how much effort the stuntie players puts into his plan, 70% of the time it fails one just this one card. If the slayers have spent 33% of the game with their M2 fighters trying to get inspired and then you stop them, they are almost certainly going to be totally unable to do anything with the remaining turns to score glory. 

 

This card is a very, very poor design.

[Requizen]

6 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Earthquake is one of those cards that nearly invalidates entire warbands, and as such, it is an auto-include. The stunties are screwed with it, and the thing is, it's not hard to get.

 

As an opponent of the slayers, you have a 70% chance of getting it in round one if it's in your deck. No matter how much effort the stuntie players puts into his plan, 70% of the time it fails one just this one card. If the slayers have spent 33% of the game with their M2 fighters trying to get inspired and then you stop them, they are almost certainly going to be totally unable to do anything with the remaining turns to score glory. 

 

This card is a very, very poor design.

The likelyhood of drawing a specific card from a 20 card deck in the opening hand is 25%. That goes to 50% if you mulligan. The only way you're hitting 70% is if you draw Power for every single action in your first turn, at which point you've done even less than the Fyreslayers. 

The card is counterable even without having your own Earthquake, it's not the best designed card but it's fine. 

[Sleboda]

10 hours ago, Requizen said:

The likelyhood of drawing a specific card from a 20 card deck in the opening hand is 25%. That goes to 50% if you mulligan. The only way you're hitting 70% is if you draw Power for every single action in your first turn, at which point you've done even less than the Fyreslayers. 

Yes, exactly.

That's what my opponent has been doing, rather smartly.

She knows that if she totally eliminates the potential for all Axes to inspire, it's worth trading a Round. 

Also, she gets Glory for Objectives like not Moving or staying non-adjacent or not taking damage.  So, she completely undoes a third of the game for the Axes (and pushes them a hex further back into their own area which their M2 is not going to counter - making the 3 objectives based on getting into enemy territory less likely to get as a bonus), just by playing the odds.  It's even worse if she gets the card earlier than the 4th draw as she can then do other things.

On the other hand, the Axes must use all their activations to try to advance onto Objectives and therefor cannot math the trading of cards.

 

It really is a sound plan for the Skaven player and one that far, far too easily neuters an entire warband.

 

Worst card in the whole game.

[BobbyB]

While I agree that Earthquake does at the moment seem a little too good (although at least it's universal), that is an immense risk to take for a 70% shot at success, not to mention that you have to consider the chances that your opponent also has earthquake and subsequently pops everyone right back where they were

[Sleboda]

But it's not.  That's the point. 70% chance to effectively cripple an entire warband, all from the safety of a backfield where you are scoring? 

Very high reward with minimal risk.

 

Keep in mind,  only the initial 5 cards are wasted if you dump them.  The next 9 are looking for Earthquake, but along the way you may get a number of individual push cards that can be used in the final power step to knock players off objectives (and one hex back into their own board), so cycling this way has really an even greater than 70% chance of keeping the slayers slow, uninspired, further away, and without glory.

[Praetor of Calth]

9 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

But it's not.  That's the point. 70% chance to effectively cripple an entire warband, all from the safety of a backfield where you are scoring? 

Very high reward with minimal risk.

It also very easy to plan around. You can in anticipation of your own earthquake or even your opponents. 

It doesn't cripple anyone when all types of warbands gain some benefit from it. As another poster mentioned above, "No Time" already exists as a counter too it. Arguably the best time to use Earthquake is in the fourth activation, and there are ways to prevent your opponent from doing that. It doesn't "cripple" anybody, because everyone can benefit from it, and everyone can take cards to counter, or at least lessen it's effects.

That being said, I will again reiterate that I would like too see a card of some sorts that could at least counteract the effects of cards like "Earthquake."

[Sleboda]

I think what is being missed in the counter points is that the Skaven player holds the edge in the odds and can focus on hunting for the card with no appreciable drawback, whereas the slayer player (specifically) cannot. He must use his activations to move into position and cannot spend them cycling. The deck is stacked in the Skaven player's favor because he has more opportunity to card hunt at no or very low cost.

Yes, No Time and your own Earthquake exist (although in our games I can get neither as my opponent takes them and we share sets), but they need to come in the initial hand to be of use. The Skaven player has 14 chances chances to get one card and the slayer player had 5 chances to get one or two.

 

 

Out of curiosity, how many Skaven vs Axes games have folks posting here played? I've had 12 so far with 3 more coming tonight. It's not like I'm speaking from theory only. 

[Sleboda]

44 minutes ago, Praetor of Calth said:

t. It doesn't "cripple" anybody, because everyone can benefit from it, and everyone can take cards to counter, or at least lessen it's effects.

Also, this argument is used in sports and by TOs who make their own scenarios for tournaments all the time and it's simply untrue.

To illustrate using just one example.

If you had a game where you said all wizards got Total Power for each casting, you could not say that it's fair because it benefits all because Khorne armies have no wizards and get extra dispels that they can now not use.  (Old rules)

Blanket rules do not benefit all equally. They just don't. 

[Requizen]

While experience is a good indicator, I think you may be tunnel visioning "Earthquake vs Slayers" a bit too much.

First, it's not the end of the world if they hit you with Earthquake. As I said in the Chosen Axes thread, there are 6 cards available to them that can move back onto objectives, with an 80% chance to draw one in the first hand and a ~50% chance to draw two of them in the first hand. If your opponent hits you with Earthquake, you have a large chance of getting back onto the objective with Ploys of your own. Perhaps not Inspiring all of your dudes, but as long as you're getting Grimnir Inspired it's generally worth it.

Second, I think you are underestimating the downside of doing nothing but drawing for all 4 actions. If something like Skaven is just sitting there, you can easily move forward with Vol or Tefk who, even uninspired, are serious threats to the Skaven units. While Earthquake will shift them around, you've now gained ground and will be in place to start making aggressive moves in the next round. Skaven at that point should have little to no Glory - if they're not moving onto objectives, and they're not fighting, what are they gaining glory from? Not much that you shouldn't be able to counter. Maybe if it was Stormcast gaining Glory from Consecrated Ground or something I could understand, but even that's not a huge swing (and those types of Stormcast decks don't want to Earthquake themselves off of their own Objectives anyway). While your plan may be somewhat ruined, the opponent has done literally nothing and therefore has no tempo to play off of in Turn 2.

[IO91]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

I think what is being missed in the counter points is that the Skaven player holds the edge in the odds and can focus on hunting for the card with no appreciable drawback, whereas the slayer player (specifically) cannot. He must use his activations to move into position and cannot spend them cycling. The deck is stacked in the Skaven player's favor because he has more opportunity to card hunt at no or very low cost.

Yes, No Time and your own Earthquake exist (although in our games I can get neither as my opponent takes them and we share sets), but they need to come in the initial hand to be of use. The Skaven player has 14 chances chances to get one card and the slayer player had 5 chances to get one or two.

 

 

Out of curiosity, how many Skaven vs Axes games have folks posting here played? I've had 12 so far with 3 more coming tonight. It's not like I'm speaking from theory only. 

I think it's hard to judge playing a game with those cards when you don't even have access to them as a counter play.  Also while yes the Skaven player can cycle through up to 14 cards to get to Earthquake they are also dumping 5 cards immediately and then may have to discard up to 4 more if they can't get a situation to play any of them. In that case they would have burned through half of their deck in turn 1 which is also a benefit to you. 

 

Personally I've already played 4 games of Fyreslayers against the Skaven and I feel it's just a bad matchup for them altogether. Its very easy for the Skaven player with all of their mobility to just roll over and bump your guys off of the objectives. 

[NeverEasy]

2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I think what is being missed in the counter points is that the Skaven player holds the edge in the odds and can focus on hunting for the card with no appreciable drawback, whereas the slayer player (specifically) cannot.

I get the feeling that the Skaven player might have tailored her deck specifically against your Fyreslayers..? In a enviroment where you don't know what opponent you are going to face next, cards like Earthquake and the objective that gives you one glory point for not moving can be more or less useless cards. For example, against hyper aggressive Orruks or Reavers, Earthquake is nowhere near as useful as against Fyreslayers.

Anyway, I would be interested in knowing what kind of objective and power deck you are using with the Fyreslayers, and how you are placing your objective markers on the board. For example, have you tried placing all of your objective markers one or two hexes into the Skaven player's territory (or no-mans-land)? By having lots of aggressively placed objective markers in enemy territory you can use the cards Tantalising Prize and Treasure-Lust as powerful movement cards so you can get a charge or two done after playing them. Along with cards like Sidestep, Living Wall, Distraction, The Earth Shakes etc. you should pretty reliably kill 1-2 Skaven in the first round.

Also try forgetting about trying to inspire your guys round 1 and also forget about objective cards like Hold Objective 1-5. Instead use push/movement ploys to go in for the kill as soon as possible. I think the Fyreslayers are killers and should only try to go stand on an objective when there is a good opportunity (meaning your strategy shouldn't be reliant on holding objectives round 1). Always give priority to killing instead of holding. My Fyreslayer deck has zero cards that require you to hold a specific objective (meaning no Hold Objective 1-5 or Tactical Supremacy etc.). I do have cards like Plant a Standard and Supremacy.

[NeverEasy]

[Sleboda]

Oh, there is no doubt I am focusing on the Skaven vs. Axes matchup. I don't think I've indicated otherwise.

To re-address the "counter with your own ploys" argument -

As the Axe player, you can't fish. You need to move and you need Fjul' s upgrades in your hand. This warband snowballs like no other.  Let's say you do somehow get to pushes in your initial hand. Those are what you have for the whole round. You move your fighters their 2M to try to reach a few objectives near mid-board (because putting them in your backfield  is self-defeating). The skaven player has seen 10 cards to start and will see 3 to 4 more by the end of round one. I say 3 because he may use an activation to push you off an objective with a charge. Sure, that fighter might die later, but so what? Just bring him back if you want. 

Now it is the 4th power step and the Skaven player has likely got enough pushes (due to fishing more than you can afford to) to keep you off any objectives you did not lose to a combat. You probably don't have enough ploys to match the number of options the Skaven player has.

You spent a turn, one of three, stopping on objectives on your side of the board and did not get inspired. You can move 2 hexes next round and only more if you somehow didn't get them in your initial hand and spend them fruitlessly to try to counter the superior number of plots the Skaven had. Either way,  you want to stop on them again to try to inspire up to M3 for your last turn, which is still not enough to reach speedy Skaven targets and may not even get you glory from cards that reward advancing.

While all of this is going on, the Skaven player has been using power steps to inspire his troops and scoring Glory from cards like Bloodless, the one where you don't move, Holds, alone in the darkness, and others.

It leads to Skaven wins of something like 5 to 1 or 2.

Yes, you will sometimes get lucky and beat those Skaven, but it won't be by much or often enough for tournament purposes.

And all this starts with Earthquake because it affects all your previous Moves at once and pushes you back. 

It's not at all a case of "everyone is in the same boat." 

Axes really suffer much more, and in particular against skaven.

[Sleboda]

14 minutes ago, IO91 said:

while yes the Skaven player can cycle through up to 14 cards to get to Earthquake they are also dumping 5 cards immediately and then may have to discard up to 4 more if they can't get a situation to play any of them.

 In that case they would have burned through half of their deck in turn 1 which is also a benefit to you. 

My point is that the 5 card dump is not a detriment to the Skaven player in this matchup.

Also, why would they need to discard 4 more? You can have more than 5 power cards in your hand.

Also also, they like burning through cards. They can get glory for being empty.

[IO91]

6 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

My point is that the 5 card dump is not a detriment to the Skaven player in this matchup.

Also, why would they need to discard 4 more? You can have more than 5 power cards in your hand.

Also also, they like burning through cards. They can get glory for being empty.

Well the 4 extra would be worst case scenario (for skaven) of them taking their 4 activiations to just draw but not be able to play those cards and have to discard them at the end of the phase, unlikely but it could happen. 

I guess my point was if they want to burn through all those cards and those activations just to get Earthquake then so be it. Maybe in your case with how your deck has to be set up just put in an extra card that allows you to push plus the cards that NeverEasy posted above to give you the most extra moving you can get. 

[Sleboda]

Re: 4 cards. Ah. Got it.

Re: Those 2 cards. They are in there,  for sure. I have tried putting the objectives a little into Skaven territory, but not specifically with these cards in mind. I'll try tonight!