Let's Chat: Chosen Axes

[Red_Zeke]

I've struggled a bit with Flawless Strategy in a deck with lots of Score Immediately cards.  They don't help with Flawless and can make it hard to plan a score of your other End Phase objectives until you're partially through the round. I suppose the better you know your deck, the more you can plan for what is *probably* coming up.

[Spinsane]

On 4/29/2018 at 1:21 AM, Sleboda said:

My record over the last 21 games is 17-4.

Sigh.

And to think that a few weeks ago the sky was falling because the Chosen Axe were obviously, according to you, being rendered inept to a point where the game was broken...

It's surprising how jumping to premature conclusions can lead to innacurate judgement.

[Sleboda]

You'll note I pretty much ignore objective play. I still believe that's dead. I assume (accurately so, it turns out) that I'll get one model inspired per game between Tefk and Fjul and, sometimes, one other between Vol and MM.  My other warbands are looking at at least half the fighters getting inspired, with more than that being pretty common.

 

Also, when I do lose with these guys, it's almost always because my opponent understands that if they avoid contact, I can't get the ball rolling fast enough, and I'll end up on 3 or 4 Glory at best.  It's a pretty easy warband to beat, as long as you know to just sit back.

[Anthony225]

On 4/30/2018 at 8:17 AM, Sleboda said:

You'll note I pretty much ignore objective play. I still believe that's dead. I assume (accurately so, it turns out) that I'll get one model inspired per game between Tefk and Fjul and, sometimes, one other between Vol and MM.  My other warbands are looking at at least half the fighters getting inspired, with more than that being pretty common.

 

Also, when I do lose with these guys, it's almost always because my opponent understands that if they avoid contact, I can't get the ball rolling fast enough, and I'll end up on 3 or 4 Glory at best.  It's a pretty easy warband to beat, as long as you know to just sit back.

That's disheartening to hear. So I'm your opinion, once your opponent is either a good enough player or just sits back and leaves you alone, the dwarves crumble?

[Sleboda]

12 hours ago, Anthony225 said:

That's disheartening to hear. So I'm your opinion, once your opponent is either a good enough player or just sits back and leaves you alone, the dwarves crumble?

That's been my experience so far. The lack of movement is killer in a 3 round game, and you only get 2 rounds to inspire them. Since you simply cannot count on inspiring them, and there are not enough "do nothing" objectives to win with them, you need to press for kills very fast. If the opponent does not allow you to get those kills, you don't tend to do well.

It's not absolute, of course, but in my experience, this has been the way things pan out.

[Changer]

On 4/27/2018 at 11:07 PM, Sleboda said:

Now, the deck

After a fair amount of success with my Skaven at the Grand Clash, I've now turned back to the Fyreslayers to see how they fair with all of the cards available.  I've used your list as a basis and made some amendments which have done well over the last week.

Here's the list.

3 pushes, a few few moves / attacks, and some mitigation to help me with objectives with Great Concussion and Mischievous Spirits.  Like you, I'm happy with getting 2 of my guys inspired each game.  Now, I have only played against aggro decks so far - I've sat back and then counter-charged to score some 'Score Immediately' objectives and then gone from there.  I guess if I'm playing against objective-based decks I'll push my objectives closer and run forward, but the general 'meta' in the area seems to focus on aggro.

There's only 1 card I wish I had in my deck - Hidden Paths.  This card would at least give someone sitting at the back of the board something to think about; but I'm not sure which ploy I'd drop.

Anyone have any ideas?

[acadmo]

Hello fellow dwarf players, what do you guys think about the state of our little dudes right now? On one hand they seem to be much better off now with some of the new ploys like My Turn and obviously Inspiration Strikes, on the other hand there are new matchups I am not entirely sure about.

I will be attending a local tournament. The meta is very Magores heavy but I don't know the matchup that well, since my friends rarely play them.

Also what I am really worried about is the aggresive farstriders list. The problem is not what i first anticipated - them being too far back and hard to reach with move two but actually how much in your face they are, the damage they can dish out, and huge point advantage they can generate woth the combo of one immediately ploy, two easy ones, victory after victory and supreme tactician in lategame.

The deck is very consistent and scary with longer threat ranges than skaven, toughness of stormcast and huge point gains just from one kill.

What do you guys do against them? I will try adding healing potion and ur gold boon as as a start since they could help against incremental damagebut im not sure they will make that much of a difference. Also what do you think about magores MU?

[Sleboda]

In general, I am not a fan of the Healing Potion and equivalents.  It very well could just be me, but I have a general philosophy in gaming, and Warhammer Underworlds in particular, that if you are using resources to react to damage when you could just suck it up and spend them on taking the fight to the enemy, you are being too defensive.  

In other words, getting back just one wound with a card (and let's not fool ourselves into thinking we'll get two back - lol) that could have helped you kill or claim territory instead seems a bad option.

I think the way to deal with the new Stormcast is the same as it is for several foes.  Keep the border narrow. Focus on one kill at a time. Make Fjul a God.

[Anthony225]

Are there any good reasons to take Fyreslayers over Orruks? Orruks seem to have better general stats (not attack stats) than fyreslayers. Fyreslayers have equal general stats to Orruks, but only when inspired. They -1 movement and wound which I think is huge. The one thing I think the Fyreslayers do have for them is that almost the entire warband hit like trucks even before being inspired. 

The one thing I think that hinders the fyreslayers enough to be not that great is movement 2. Granted I have not played a game yet, but I've messed around with placing boards just to see different set ups. And if you place the boards with short edges touching the fyreslayers seem pretty screwed as they are so far from the enemy. 

Also seems like a catch-22, the dwarves want to close with the enemy and they have to do it quick with ploys as they are so slow on their own, yet they want to stop and check out the scenery in order to inspire. 

[Anthony225]

If they made a card that let you teleport an unclaimed objective to anywhere on the board that would be huge for dwarves. As then they could sit back and wait the enemy out with cards like supremacy and on our way out. And also inspire much easier. 

[Malakree]

7 hours ago, Anthony225 said:

Are there any good reasons to take Fyreslayers over Orruks? Orruks seem to have better general stats (not attack stats) than fyreslayers. 

Fyreslayers are a flexible warband, you will be balancing both offense and defence depending on the enemy and game state.

Orruks are an aggressive warband, they need/want to fight the entire game.

Imo the comparison for fyreslayers is actually farstriders with ironskullz being a worse Magors. 

Unlike ironskullz you are more flexible with who goes nuts compared while they just have gurzag and bone cutter. 

[acadmo]

@Sleboda I am usually of the same mindset however "the best defence is offence" rule is not really true while going against farstriders.Whenever you kill a model in another warband you limit their options and number of attacks due to how charges and threat ranges work(essentialy each model can make one attack unless in base to base). Farstriders however do not need to charge to deal damage, and it doesnt matter if they have 3 or one fighter left alive. Also their damage is more consistent since if they fail their attack they can just continue attacking with the same fighter. Thats why I feel that healing effects are one of the few ways to lower their dps even more so due to incremental nature of their attacks. It might not work, we will see.

What about magores, do you find them problematic?

Also keeping the border narrow is a good idea. Didnt do that a lot since we play on a small table but it could help a great deal in keeping them from flipping and making their placement less in my face.

Edited May 23, 2018 by acadmo
didnt address part of a post

[Sleboda]

12 hours ago, Anthony225 said:

re there any good reasons to take Fyreslayers over Orruks?

It pretty much comes down to the models.  If you like the dwarf models better, play Chosen Axes. Otherwise, Orruks are pretty much superior.

If the modified the Inspire condition for Axes to be "Hold an objective at the end of this model's activation" then they would be well balanced.  As it is, they have a tough go of it.

[Sleboda]

4 hours ago, acadmo said:

What about magores, do you find them problematic?

So far, I am the only person in our group using either the Fiends or the Chosen Axes, so I've not seen them in action against each other.

[Anthony225]

I'm wondering if dwarves would do well with ploys that are mostly movement based with time trap and ready for action which could also be movement. And for upgrades offensive and defensive. 

I was also wondering to add objectives which get you glory for being in opponents territory as dwarves have their own "conquest" equivalent. Earthquake and great concussion alone get each fighter 2 hexes closer to enemy territory 

i feel dwarves could potentially be surprisingly fast with alll the access to pushes and movement they have since they don't need offense ploys 

[kozokus]

On 5/24/2018 at 8:12 PM, Anthony225 said:

i feel dwarves could potentially be surprisingly fast with alll the access to pushes and movement they have since they don't need offense ploys 

Prety much.

The base movement 2 might be bad but you have access to numerous movement ploys and upgrades, not counting your exalted status to compensate. You also are less dependant of +1 might upgrades.

[Anthony225]

Did anybody notice that Fyreslayers got 1st place at the U.K. Games Expo Grand Clash 2018?

deck looks interesting and fun as well. What do experienced Fyreslayers players think of it?:

Objectives (12)
119 - Ferocious Charge
124 - Scion of Grimnir
125 - Unstoppable Advance
235 - Alone in the Darkness
243 - Change of Tactics
257 - Escalation
272 - Master of War
276 - No More Tricks
282 - Ploymaster
284 - Precise Use of Force
291 - Superior Tactician
293 - Swift Advance

Ploys (10)
132 - The Earth Shakes
133 - Treasure-lust
320 - Duel of Wits
321 - Earthquake
329 - Great Concussion
331 - Hidden Paths
334 - Inspiration Strikes
347 - Quick Thinker
348 - Ready for Action
362 - Spoils of Battle

Upgrades (10)
136 - Activated Runes
142 - Grimnir's Fortitude
373 - A Destiny to Meet
389 - Great Fortitude
391 - Great Strength
409 - Shadeglass Axe
411 - Shadeglass Darts
420 - Soultrap
421 - Sprinter
424 - Tethered Spirit

[glitch]

On 5/22/2018 at 9:54 AM, acadmo said:

Also what I am really worried about is the aggresive farstriders list. The problem is not what i first anticipated - them being too far back and hard to reach with move two but actually how much in your face they are, the damage they can dish out, and huge point advantage they can generate woth the combo of one immediately ploy, two easy ones, victory after victory and supreme tactician in lategame.

5

Which Farstriders list is this? I've been trying to build a hybrid list, and can't work out which cards you're referring to here.

[acadmo]

3 hours ago, glitch said:

Which Farstriders list is this? I've been trying to build a hybrid list, and can't work out which cards you're referring to here.

I don't remember friends deck exactly but he is taking all aggresive in faction ploys and all neutral "must have" ploys like trap, great concussion, ready for action, my turn and quick thinker which is just broken with Farstriders(you move away from a guy  making his activation useless and then proceed to murder him with your ranged attacks). Also one key ploy is Shardgale. It helps immensly with your killing power and auto scores Multiple Fronts.

^Because of ploys he can really dish out a lot of damage. His upgrades are similarly aggresive - shadeglass weapons, gun that gives cleave, helpful whispers, counterattack thingy. He also runs A Destiny to meet as some form of lategame points and obviously Army of one which similarly to Quick thinker is too strong with them(they can make use of additional attack dice multiple times in a turn).

These are his objectives:

 behead the beast(e)
punishing volleys(e)
advancing strike(i)
alone in the darkness(e)
master of war(e)
masterstroke(i)
ploymaster(e)
multiple fronts(i)
precise use of force(i)
superior tactician(3e)
the bigger they are (i)
victory after victory (e).

As you can see it is an all out offence deck with no regard for objective holding. I think going hybrid with them is a trap.

The main problems when playing against this deck:

1. You can't effectively engage - if you run with your warriors head on there is a good chance one of them will die or two will be severly wounded while farstriders will keep their distance. You will get 0 - 1 charges first turn if he doesn't want you to engage. 

2. Can't effectively play defensive/objective game - the farstriders have exact same threat ranges as skaven. They are the fastest warband in the game when it comes down just to charges. They will easily interrupt your score obj plan.

3. Even when he engages you and you have some good rolls and put some hurt on them it does not reduce their damage output the same way it does to the other warbands - due to them not being required to charge in order to deal damage. You eliminating two of them may paradoxically make game harder for you, as you enable an army of one guy who is sitting in the middle of your board to wreck havoc with 4 dices on ranged attacks dealing 1 - 2 dmg with each, while your warriors are stuck because they have already charged or can't really engage him(if you charge him and fail(3 dice defence sometimes with a reroll) you are in melee range of 2 - 3 dmg attack and can't move, if you fail and push him back you are still in range of his gun and cannot move).

Edited June 20, 2018 by acadmo

[riddlesworth]

I started playing Shadespire with Orruks, but love the Chosen Axe models so I've been playing a lot of them over the past 3 months.

I think they are very flexible in how you want to approach the game, despite the tricky inspire conditions. The thing is, we all know when inspired, Fjul is a wrecking ball, but with a +1 strength upgrade (or trap, or twist the knife), both Tefk and Vol will one shot anyone outside of Fjul and Gurzag. Tefk has 3 dice on hammers so he is reliable as all get out. So while Orruks spend most of their activations and cards to enable Gurzag to krump enemy models, when Grimnir's boys get 2 inspirations and/or the right upgrade, they offer multiple threats.

Given their low speed, I started with a deck that focused on controlling the Chosen Axe side of the board so I didn't have to go chasing. Contain/Denial as the glory point swing at the end of the game, defensive strike, scion of grimnir, ferocious charge for some score immediates and then alone in the darkness, escalation and hold 1-5. It worked great against aggro decks that would come to me because with the amount of movement ploys available and Inspiration Strikes I could consistently get 2 guys inspired in round 1 then have a point man (usually Fjul) patrolling no man's land. Tefk's knockback upgrade really helped as he and Vol could bat fighters out of my territory. The major issues I had with the playstyle of that deck were:

- passive scorers that didn't want to come to me. I usually got round this by including Grimnir's speed and Grimnir's fortitude so Fjul would become a true wrecking ball in enemy territory while the rest hung back to deal with sneaky hidden paths in the end game, but it made life far more difficult because if he got dropped before he'd made too much of an impact, scrabbling for glory after that was a challenge. illusory fighter helps though. Effective farstriders play had me truly stumped though.

- skritch. getting to skritch is HARD with those stubby legs and a 7 hex threat range is more than I can manage when my guys are hanging out in their own territory.

- hold 1-5. Probably 75% of the time, I would mill my opening objective hand because it had Hold X and i didn't have X on my side of the board. I was still consistently scoring 10+ glory, but there were times it made life significantly harder to snowball, especially if the mullligan then put contained/denial in my opening hand

 

So then the Grand Clash winning deck posted above comes out. My ploy set and his ploy set are identical, with the exception of earthquake (which i don't take as i like illusory fighter). Upgrades are very similar. But the playstyle enforced by the objectives is, I think, far more aggressive. No more tricks never seems to score for me but Swift Advance, Unstoppable Advance and some of the other potential turn 1 scores made me think that this player sets up very aggressively - his objectives get placed in no mans land or close to it and he pushes his guys into enemy territory from turn 1. This gets around the 3 key problems I was finding with my defensive control deck - its own passive scoring gets it into enemy territory where you'll be in range to strike with everyone. Skritch is reachable, and you're not having to divert killing power to holding objectives with half your warband. The challenge I think it presents is the same challenge highlighted over and over when talking about the Chosen Axes - pre inspiration, your 3 supporting fighters only have 3 health. In the first action round there are plenty of models who can do 2 damage +trap and twist the knife, or do 3 damage flat (severin, oberyn, gurzag to name a few), so Vol, Tefk, Maegrim all bite the dust early. And with the guys that do 3 damage, Fjul is at risk as well.

I'm playing the Grand Clash deck at the moment with my own tweaks and what I'm discovering is, while yes, I likely lose 1 (and sometimes 2) pieces in the first round to hard hitting decks, my other 2 guys are getting inspired. With the right placement and use of boards, it's primarily the 2 I want. At that point, the Chosen Axes can go toe to toe with any warband in the game in terms of pure hitting power and the aggro scores roll up nicely. 

Maybe my meta isn't as competitive as it should be, but I'm loving the murder midgets right now.

[Anthony225]

@riddlesworth,

im glad to hear the deck above that I posted is working out. It looks like a ton of fun. My theory is earthquake and great concussion may be used primarily to get the "murder midgets" up the board post haste. 

I do very much think that each dwarf is a force to be reckoned with (once inspired). Even Mad Maegrim, who's arguably the worst Fyreslayer stat-wise, is a capable fighter with a free reroll. 

Im very interested to see the new leader cards as the cards spoiled so far give me hope that there's something good for the dwarves. Quick advance and tyrant's command seem decent. Tyrant's command I think will be good for a lot of warbands. You could hidden paths Tefk into enemy territory and then charge. 

Commanding shout is interesting also. Although I'm not sure using an action to push a fighter 2 hexes is worth using an action. But it could be 

[riddlesworth]

I don't have Earthquake in the deck at the moment, I use illusory fighter. But it's certainly a contender. Likewise I'm looking at spectral wings and tantalising prize as great 1st turn movement options. Plot space is, as always, tight though.

Of the spoiled leader cards, quick advance, tyrant's command, commanding shout, rise to the challenge are all contenders.

I'm very interested in Pride of the Lodge as well. I play Chosen Champion in my deck because I have grimnir's speed, grimnir's fortitude and activated runes which, almost without fail, go on Fjul. Having an extra glory card in the for achieving essentially the same thing is great, but if Fjul get's bopped early its unscorable...

[Sleboda]

On 7/6/2018 at 9:18 AM, Anthony225 said:

Commanding shout is interesting also. Although I'm not sure using an action to push a fighter 2 hexes is worth using an action. But it could be 

To me, the beauty of that is the ability to push a guy 6 hexes and then have him charge 2 or 3 more in that turn when it's all hanging in the balance and the only thing you really need to do is hit that one guy who is hiding way back there.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Sleboda

[riddlesworth]

On 7/7/2018 at 2:26 AM, Sleboda said:

To me, the beauty of that is the ability to push a guy 6 hexes and then have him charge 2 or 3 more in that turn when it's all hanging in the balance and the only thing you really need to do is hot that one guy who is hiding way back there.

Or to push 2 hexes, move 2 or 3 more and score 3 glory off unstoppable advance and swift advance...

 

Extra movement tricks are always welcome in a faction with low movement but high hitting power

[dillonjay21]

The Fyreslayers have definitely been my favorite war-band to play with and have a pretty good record with them since settling on the type of deck I wanted to play. Much like some others have been doing I run an aggro deck that try to get people into my half and inspire Fjul and either Tefk or Vol to start punching. There is honestly nothing like getting inspiration strikes in your opening hand then oneshotting the aggro opponent who comes in and kills or try to kill the maegrim or Vol I have as bait. Turns 2 and 3 consist of me usually pushing up with my inspired fighters and throwing formless key and glory to meet on someone who is just gonna sit back and survive. This deck works great against Aggros, but is a bit tougher against defensive decks, specifically Farstriders. However, with hidden paths, quick thinker, treasure lust and another push ploy its been getting along a bit better than before. 

I'm excited to play in a casual tourney this Saturday with them and will report back on how I do. I'm a big advocate for these guys and love when people are surprised that I'm playing them and say they are so bad. They're so fun and rewarding. Especially once you get Fjul and Tefk powered up with tons of upgrades.