Shattering terrain and "activation"

[donburg]

Hey guys,

Apologies if this has been discussed but the following came up in a game last night:

Does the power step count as part of an activation?  So could you, for example, play Shattering Terrain (which specifies movement during an "activation") and then in the next power step play distraction and cause a wound automatically?

The rule book has me confused as it says the power step happens "after an activation is resolved" but then in the summary lists "next activation" as part of the power step.

Cheers.

[NeverEasy]

Hi!

You are correct that the rulebook is a little vague on the issue, but let's inspect what it and Shattering Terrain says:
 

Rulebook page 30 (Glossary): "Activation: Each player has four activations in each action phase. Each activation lets them make an action with a fighter, draw a power card or discard and draw an objective card. (notice there is no mention of playing power cards here)

Rulebook page 22 (Power Step): "After each activation is resolved... ... both players have the chance to play power cards."

Shattering Terrain: "Any fighters that make a Move action, are pushed or are driven back in the next activation suffer 1 damage."

So whether the activation and power step are part of the same sequence or not is in this case irrelevant (btw I interpret the Reference list as saying the power step sequence ends when a new activation begins, this is supported by the fact that there is not power step in the beginning of a new round). Shattering Terrain explictly needs the movement to happen during an activation of a fighter for it to trigger, and power cards are played after, not during, a fighter's activation (except for reactions of course).

Also there is the fact that Shattering Terrain would be super powerful if it would be triggered during the power step. It would combo very well for example with Distraction and the coming Fyreslayer card that lets you move any fighter. Shadespire seems to shy away from making so powerful and easy combos.

Long answer short: The power step is not part of an activation.
 

[Rintrah56]

Don't have my rulebook to hand, but immediate thought is that they are separate. Which would mean you couldn't do the Shattered Terrain/Distraction combo.

But you could, for example, do Shattered Terrain in your opponent's power phase, then in your activation make an attack that takes an enemy fighter out of action, then immediately play the reaction card Triumphant Roar (because the reaction interrupts the game and takes place before the activation ends/power phase starts). Indeed, this was a suggested combo recently on the Underworlds GW Facebook page recently...

[NeverEasy]

35 minutes ago, Rintrah56 said:

But you could, for example, do Shattered Terrain in your opponent's power phase, then in your activation make an attack that takes an enemy fighter out of action, then immediately play the reaction card Triumphant Roar (because the reaction interrupts the game and takes place before the activation ends/power phase starts). Indeed, this was a suggested combo recently on the Underworlds GW Facebook page recently...

Yes, another combo would be Karsus' Terrifying Howl. Personally I use it with the Orruks to inspire them during a charge in addition to the extra damage on the drive back as well. 

[donburg]

Right - makes sense guys, thanks.

[Astynax]

even more confusing when the GW Shadespire group posts this which makes it sound like it is part of the current phase

[Biboune]

I think that the combo works because Triumphant Roar is a reaction played after an attack, so it is still happening during the current activation.

[dtw]

On 06/02/2018 at 11:06 PM, Biboune said:

I think that the combo works because Triumphant Roar is a reaction played after an attack, so it is still happening during the current activation.

That's correct. But as someone mentioned above, you have to play Shattering Terrain before the Activation you intended to play Triumphant Roar starts, and that might not be immediately obvious from the Facebook post.

[Kugane]

I think shattering terrain will work on anything that occurs during an action phase BEFORE ploys/equipments can be used. So any action,reaction, push, etc, after doing a move/attack/charge, shattering terrain will trigger.

I think that combos such as using Shattering Terrain in the ploy 'phase' followed by earthquake will do anything.

[dtw]

Shattering Terrain is also activated by a Charge, right? It doesn't say it is on the card but it doesn't make sense that it isn't!

[NeverEasy]

1 hour ago, dtw said:

Shattering Terrain is also activated by a Charge, right? It doesn't say it is on the card but it doesn't make sense that it isn't!

Yes it is activated. I doesn't need to say it on the card because the rulebook states that doing a charge action gives a fighter a move and an attack action. 

[dtw]

On 26/02/2018 at 9:24 AM, NeverEasy said:

Yes it is activated. I doesn't need to say it on the card because the rulebook states that doing a charge action gives a fighter a move and an attack action. 

Thanks for your reply. It's actually also explicitly in the FAQs so I should have checked there.

What about damage: if a fighter is driven back by an attack, they'd take a wound. But what if there is then a reaction card that causes them to be moved again. Is that a further wound?

[PanikSpreder]

Yes, I would say that a reaction card would trigger the effect, making the target suffer damage again.

[Choombatta]

21 minutes ago, PanikSpreder said:

Yes, I would say that a reaction card would trigger the effect, making the target suffer damage again.

What about a push followed by a knockback?

Would the target take 1 damage from the push, and then more damage depending on the knockback (i.e. 1 more damage from knockback 1, 2 more damage from knockback 2)?

Or is it 1 damage, no matter how many factors move the target?

[NeverEasy]

6 hours ago, dtw said:

What about damage: if a fighter is driven back by an attack, they'd take a wound. But what if there is then a reaction card that causes them to be moved again. Is that a further wound?

I guess it would depend on what the reaction card does. If it adds Knockback, I would say no (see bottom of this reply). If it lets you push the target, I would say yes.

4 hours ago, Choombatta said:

What about a push followed by a knockback?

Would the target take 1 damage from the push, and then more damage depending on the knockback (i.e. 1 more damage from knockback 1, 2 more damage from knockback 2)?

Or is it 1 damage, no matter how many factors move the target?

My interpretation would be that Knockback does not cause additional damage. The way the rulebook talks about Knockback makes it seem like a buff to Drive Back and not a separate event. So Knockback wouldn't cause extra damage, just like a fighter moving with Sprint (double movement value for the next movement action) would not take extra damage from sprinting.

[NeverEasy]

... Also, Shattering Terrain specifies the conditions as move action, pushed or driven back. So even if Knockback was a separate thing from Drive Back, you could argue it wouldn't trigger Shattering Terrain because Knockback is not mentioned on the card.

[Choombatta]

1 hour ago, NeverEasy said:

... Also, Shattering Terrain specifies the conditions as move action, pushed or driven back. So even if Knockback was a separate thing from Drive Back, you could argue it wouldn't trigger Shattering Terrain because Knockback is not mentioned on the card.

Push/Drive Back/Knockback is sort of confusing with the verbage.

Drive Back and Knockback are definitely different, as they have separate conditions (i.e. Drive Back must be farther away from attacker, Knockback must be in a single direction, etc.).

Also, it definitely can trigger off different actions in the same activation ,ala, Shattering Terrain is played, next activation, fighter charges-takes damage, fighter attacks and then his opponent plays a reaction that allows him to attack back, succeeds, and drives the first attacker back. The attacker would have taken 2 damage from shattering terrain, correct?

[NeverEasy]

19 hours ago, Choombatta said:

Push/Drive Back/Knockback is sort of confusing with the verbage.

Yes, I agree.

19 hours ago, Choombatta said:

Drive Back and Knockback are definitely different, as they have separate conditions (i.e. Drive Back must be farther away from attacker, Knockback must be in a single direction, etc.).

Well, yes and no. Drive Back needs less specification in the rules than Knockback because it only pushes the fighter one hex (meaning no need to specify that all pushes need to be in the same direction). On Knockback, page 22, the rulebook says "... the target can be driven back a number of additional hexes equal to X" and then continues on about the terms/rules of those additional Drive Back hexes. Mainly that part makes me think it should be treated as a buff for Drive Back (or modification of it) and not something that happens separately. It's not an airtight argument, but this is how I would play it. 

19 hours ago, Choombatta said:

Also, it definitely can trigger off different actions in the same activation ,ala, Shattering Terrain is played, next activation, fighter charges-takes damage, fighter attacks and then his opponent plays a reaction that allows him to attack back, succeeds, and drives the first attacker back. The attacker would have taken 2 damage from shattering terrain, correct?

Yes, absolutely. Those are separate events. Just to be 100% clear, I wasn't saying it couldn't trigger several times.

[Choombatta]

6 hours ago, NeverEasy said:

Well, yes and no. Drive Back needs less specification in the rules than Knockback because it only pushes the fighter one hex (meaning no need to specify that all pushes need to be in the same direction). On Knockback, page 22, the rulebook says "... the target can be driven back a number of additional hexes equal to X" and then continues on about the terms/rules of those additional Drive Back hexes. Mainly that part makes me think it should be treated as a buff for Drive Back (or modification of it) and not something that happens separately. It's not an airtight argument, but this is how I would play it.

After reading it closer, I would agree. Knockback should add to drive back, not act separate from it. One cannot be knocked back without the drive back to trigger it.