Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Malakithe]

11 minutes ago, Thostos said:

Rem,,I noted that he killed half my skellies with the guants nuke from the balewind in his first turn,,had he gone first and I wouldnt have had Nagashes army wide inspiring presence up,the unit would have likely been reduced to the mid single digits..much harder to regro from.

 As far as the Morghasts go,,im actually thinking of dropping the battalion along with the 2 morghasts and adding in a VLoZD,,adds an exceptional beatstick and another spell and an artifact,7 or 8 drop army isisnt assuring but like I say,this army as a whole seems to fare well against most opponents when going second,,with tzeentch playing them at all in any capacity isint going to work out well lol.

 The morghasts just get focused down first,bringing a block of 4 is a huge point sink and not efficient at all as they need to stick close to Nagash thus extremely limiting your choices of what amoun ts to probably 70% of the offensive force in your army.

 

The entire point of Morghast with Nagash in the battalion is so they can absorb wounds. They will eat fire regardless. 

If your not taking Nagash's battalion then you can drop the Morghast anyway

[AverageBoss]

You can deploy in a way where the GS (even on balewind) can't touch you first turn. Given their speed though, large blocks of skeletons should probably be in the grave at the start of the game.

Morghasts are important as they effectively give Nagash an extra 12 wounds, whether Nagash is focused on. or the Morghasts focused on 1st.

Time sand hourglass would be a good item to take on a Necromancer in the list to target characters like the GS or Shaman.

I actually think Nagash himself is as good a counter as any against Tzeentch, with his possibly 8 spells and dispells per turn at +3. Additionally, he has significant protection against mortal wounds in the 1st cohort, with a 4++ (with a chance of rebound) and 6++ and a 2/3 chance of 5++ and 6++ from attendant Morghasts.

[Malakithe]

5 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

You can deploy in a way where the GS (even on balewind) can't touch you first turn. Given their speed though, large blocks of skeletons should probably be in the grave at the start of the game.

Morghasts are important as they effectively give Nagash an extra 12 wounds, whether Nagash is focused on. or the Morghasts focused on 1st.

Time sand hourglass would be a good item to take on a Necromancer in the list to target characters like the GS or Shaman.

I actually think Nagash himself is as good a counter as any against Tzeentch, with his possibly 8 spells and dispells per turn at +3. Additionally, he has significant protection against mortal wounds in the 1st cohort, with a 4++ (with a chance of rebound) and 6++ and a 2/3 chance of 5++ and 6++ from attendant Morghasts.

Yeah thats what im thinking. A good tuned First Cohort list should be a complete counter to Tzeentch. 

Now if only we can come up with lists without Nagash lol

[Thostos]

42 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

You can deploy in a way where the GS (even on balewind) can't touch you first turn. Given their speed though, large blocks of skeletons should probably be in the grave at the start of the game.

Morghasts are important as they effectively give Nagash an extra 12 wounds, whether Nagash is focused on. or the Morghasts focused on 1st.

Time sand hourglass would be a good item to take on a Necromancer in the list to target characters like the GS or Shaman.

I actually think Nagash himself is as good a counter as any against Tzeentch, with his possibly 8 spells and dispells per turn at +3. Additionally, he has significant protection against mortal wounds in the 1st cohort, with a 4++ (with a chance of rebound) and 6++ and a 2/3 chance of 5++ and 6++ from attendant Morghasts.

Yeah,,with just two Archi I absorbed 2 -90 shot volleys from a Kunning Ruk,one archi was still alive and 2 wounds went onto Nagash,the Tzeench player used his Skyfire block on the Archi at first opportunity and wiped them with one volley..I would expect other rending/shooting lists like vangaurd to do the same,,no need to bother with Nagash until hes up in your face.

 Starting 24" apart and even going first with Pinions(had I taken that) I still would need a good amount of luck(10"charge) to get Nagash into his line and thus likely into counter range for the (soon to be on a Balewind) Gaunt summoner.I had thought of Graving the Skeletons,Im pretty sure it would have been the same outcome casualty wise,though had I gotten a charge off with them I would have at least gotten a good hammer shot with them.Yes it seems on paper that Nagash is a great counter for a Tzeench army,though starting 24" apart with a speed of only 9 coupled with a body guard that needs to stay within 3" at all times,,its not easy at all to set up,especially when there are Balewinds and Nukespells aplenty in the tzeench arsenal.

 One thing though that may have worked for me in this particular scenario,is that I could have actually pulled everyone back in my turn two and made it out of range of his Balewind summoner That he popped up on,( I want to say he set up about 12" behind hi sline making his range just hit my deployement zone).,,then I  have my  dogs and BKs on the flank opposed by his pinks,,had he jumped forward into my first zone for end game scoring purposes,,I could have possibly forced the line to be out of range of his Guant,,but would still have to be dealing with massive firepower from his Skyfires...then do and end around late game with the BKs and Dogs to attempt back field scoring...a long shot though.

[swarmofseals]

4 hours ago, BURF1 said:

Keep in mind what happens when you lose the big pieces when you have them buffing each other instead of themselves. Taking Vhordrai as General in double dragon list just means that if your opponent focuses down Vhordrai not only do you lose 480 pts but your remaining ZD character is actually pretty poor.  Taking a coven throne means that I can kill either the coven throne or the dragon and heavily reduce your output, far beyond what losing those pieces individually should do.

Personally, Vhordrai or CT as general seems like a high-roll gimmick. If everything goes perfectly you'll decimate, one thing goes wrong and it all falls apart. Taking the VLoZD as general is the safer, less vulnerable option in exchange for slightly less top-end output.

It's a fair argument, but the same logic applies to basically any buff/synergy strategy. If we assume Vhordrai will have Quickblood about half the time, then a double dragon list has the following characteristics (assuming you actually get to use Vhordrai's command ability for the version with Vhordrai as the general)

Vhordrai as general: 27.55 rend 1 damage, 20.84 rend 2 damage

        Vhordrai dies: 10.66 rend 1 damage, 4.67 rend 2 damage

        VLoZD dies: 6.23 rend 1 damage, 11.5 rend 2 damage

 

VLoZD as general: 21.35 rend 1 damage, 18.5 rend 2 damage

        Vhordrai dies: 15.12 rend 1 damage, 7 rend 2 damage

        VLoZD dies: 6.23 rend 1 damage, 11.5 rend 2 damage

 

With Vhordrai as your general you get 29% more rend 1 damage and 12.6% more rend 2 damage when both are alive. With the VLoZD as general you get 41.8% more rend 1 damage and 49.9% more rend 2 damage if Vhordrai dies. 

 

OK, having done the math I'm sold - Legion of Blood Double Dragon list is better with a VLoZD as general. It functions better if Vhordrai dies and you don't lose access to a command trait (the reroll charge one being really good in a build like this).

 

That said, I still like the Coven Throne option. Yes, you lose damage if either Vhordrai or the Coven Throne dies, but if V dies you can still use the Coven Throne ability on a different hammer, and if the Coven Throne dies V is still good. It's not like either warscroll isn't very good on its own without the other. Coven Throne is also much cheaper, so your entire list doesn't need to be built around the combo.

 

[Undeadly]

Honestly, I really like the Coven Throne as my general now, as it is a great boon in both defense and offense. Giving it to a big block of Skeletons or any other hard hitting unit is super great, and it can even help add a pinch of durability. Especially in Legion of Night armies, where it can sit on a point with some SnB Grave Guard and easily give them Re-Rolling 1's  on their +2 save. 

Also, holy jamole, is Amrythine Orb so much fun. Played a game with it last week, with my Flying Horror Vampire in a Sacrament list. Popped it off every single turn, and I was able to wipe a Durthu, a unit of Kurnoths and a Squad of Dryads. It is simply horrifying when it gets doubles though, as 2d6 MW can make anything quiver in  fear. I also still think that the -2 to hit artifact in Sacrament is easily the best in the entire book, even more so than the gauntlets, seeing as how it can simply ruin pretty much any ranged Unit's firing ability. 

[tea_wild_owl]

it seems that mournghoul is listed under legion of nagash in the app. however, the warscroll got updated as well. he lost his save against mortals and got the new ethereal rule, meaning no positive buffs for safe (and sadly no 2+ reroll anymore). feels like a double nerf

[AverageBoss]

33 minutes ago, tea_wild_owl said:

it seems that mournghoul is listed under legion of nagash in the app. however, the warscroll got updated as well. he lost his save against mortals and got the new ethereal rule, meaning no positive buffs for safe (and sadly no 2+ reroll anymore). feels like a double nerf

 

Unfortunately, the app lets you do all sorts of illegal list building. At present there is no rules basis to support having a Mourngul in a LoN list, and that is most likely what will be upheld at events until there is further rules change. Interesting to see it get the new Ethereal rule though. Maybe they just missed it in the initial change last week.

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Undeadly said:

Honestly, I really like the Coven Throne as my general now, as it is a great boon in both defense and offense. Giving it to a big block of Skeletons or any other hard hitting unit is super great, and it can even help add a pinch of durability. Especially in Legion of Night armies, where it can sit on a point with some SnB Grave Guard and easily give them Re-Rolling 1's  on their +2 save. 

Also, holy jamole, is Amrythine Orb so much fun. Played a game with it last week, with my Flying Horror Vampire in a Sacrament list. Popped it off every single turn, and I was able to wipe a Durthu, a unit of Kurnoths and a Squad of Dryads. It is simply horrifying when it gets doubles though, as 2d6 MW can make anything quiver in  fear. I also still think that the -2 to hit artifact in Sacrament is easily the best in the entire book, even more so than the gauntlets, seeing as how it can simply ruin pretty much any ranged Unit's firing ability. 

Sacrament has the 2 best items in the game arguably. Shroud of Darkness and Black Gold. The Orb from Blood is great too and Grave-sand from Grand Host is also great

[Burf]

3 hours ago, tea_wild_owl said:

it seems that mournghoul is listed under legion of nagash in the app. however, the warscroll got updated as well. he lost his save against mortals and got the new ethereal rule, meaning no positive buffs for safe (and sadly no 2+ reroll anymore). feels like a double nerf

If it goes down to about 160pts it might still be usable.

Also ****** forgeworld for sucking at rules.

[RuneBrush]

50 minutes ago, Burf said:

If it goes down to about 160pts it might still be usable.

Also ****** forgeworld for sucking at rules.

Easy there!  I'll admit that it's a pretty solid downgrade to the Mournghul, but that's a little harsh.  350 may still be a little on the high side, but a -1 to hit buff, healing D3 wounds if it kills any models, 3+ save, ethereal and damage 2 or 3 is rock solid for a monster that only costs £37...

We also don't 100% know who instigated the change, we know that GW don't want FW models to sit in the filth category so it may have originated from there rather than FW - in fact the App Warscroll you've shown is different from the one off the FW website (which has the old Ethereal rules).

[Killax]

41 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Easy there!  I'll admit that it's a pretty solid downgrade to the Mournghul, but that's a little harsh.  350 may still be a little on the high side, but a -1 to hit buff, healing D3 wounds if it kills any models, 3+ save, ethereal and damage 2 or 3 is rock solid for a monster that only costs £37...

We also don't 100% know who instigated the change, we know that GW don't want FW models to sit in the filth category so it may have originated from there rather than FW - in fact the App Warscroll you've shown is different from the one off the FW website (which has the old Ethereal rules).

Easy there has been the best reaction to a whole lot of initial change reactions found here in this topic  .
But realistically speaking I think the Mournghul is still a really solid piece, however, as more or less predicted it's now there largely for Nighthaunt fans/players.

What I believe is that GW rather have you buying Terrorgheist and/or Zombie Dragons and as a "Hammer Monster" they really fill that slot much like the Mourghul does. In addition to that Age of Sigmar is always full of changes but some posters/players see it as a personal assault on their 'Grand Allegiance' or 'Faction'.

...Can't convince everybody that these types of changes are actually much healtier for newer players. What is strange is that every sub-forum has a very different reaction patron as others. I've found that the most 'relaxed' responces are found in Chaos and Destruction. Whilst they most certainly arn't on top of all tournament wins either.

Back on topic though!
Had the option to playtest with a friends army, love Legion of Night allready. Also think that the Hexwraiths are absolutely awesome to include.

So for those who still want to play Nighthaunt I do think there are a lot of options there. You lose out somewhat on the Summonning and other great abilities but do present a ton of Mortal wounds. It's just that I think a lot of fun is had with any of the Legions of Nagash because the army can really allow you to have the whole Death range and play whatever.

Despite no new direct releases so far, I still can only say that this Battletome has been a massive boost. I still fully believe Tzeentch can be beaten too, just like Khorne does it. 1. Ensure you enough swarms, 2. Ensure you have enough magical defences and 3. Be fast. Tzeentch does a great job in destroying key expensive characters (the Morghasts, Vamp Lord on Zombie Dragon etc) but handles multitudes of smaller Heroes acting in conjunction with much more difficulty. 

[tea_wild_owl]

54 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Easy there!  I'll admit that it's a pretty solid downgrade to the Mournghul, but that's a little harsh.  350 may still be a little on the high side, but a -1 to hit buff, healing D3 wounds if it kills any models, 3+ save, ethereal and damage 2 or 3 is rock solid for a monster that only costs £37...

We also don't 100% know who instigated the change, we know that GW don't want FW models to sit in the filth category so it may have originated from there rather than FW - in fact the App Warscroll you've shown is different from the one off the FW website (which has the old Ethereal rules).

I did not intend to mourn (haha)

it seems that in the single warscroll pdf it has his old ethereal rules whereas in the monstrous arcanum pdf (both from forgeworld) it has the new ethereal rules. however, quite expensive for less staying power now. you can't summon him either, so only worth for a nighthaunt army (where I still want to play him from time to time)

[Thostos]

OK,,new list for Grand Host-

 Dropping the Battalion along with the Morghasts,,Adding Arkhan with Pinions,both of them know each others spells,Arkhan is fast as hell already and has the +2 cast/dispel,is a fairly decent beatstick though a bit weak defensively.6 other units with a couple of larger tarpits and 4 smaller for a bit of MSU effect,plus those are much easier to fit into a GY circle that has enemies near it.

Biggest loss is I will NOT be going first with 8 drops.

 

 

GrandHost.pdf

[stratigo]

On 2/12/2018 at 11:23 AM, Undeadly said:

That pretty much confirms exactly what I was thinking, to be honest; make no mistake, Skeleton Hordes are deadly as hell, but they are no where near invulnerable as people think they are, even with DI. They definetly need that forward screen of Dire Wolfs to soak up shots and to provide a presence up the field, less they get mowed down and shot to oblivion. The beauty of direwolves is that not only are they surprisingly resilient, but they are fully capable of doing a moderate amount of damage, especially against softer enemy units.

Now, my other question that still eludes me, is how Black Knights and Hexwraiths stack up to one another.

 

Skeletons are insanely tanky for 280 points for 40 wounds. They aren't immortal, but it takes MUCH more firepower to kill them then their points are worth.

[Burf]

6 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Easy there!  I'll admit that it's a pretty solid downgrade to the Mournghul, but that's a little harsh.  350 may still be a little on the high side, but a -1 to hit buff, healing D3 wounds if it kills any models, 3+ save, ethereal and damage 2 or 3 is rock solid for a monster that only costs £37...

We also don't 100% know who instigated the change, we know that GW don't want FW models to sit in the filth category so it may have originated from there rather than FW - in fact the App Warscroll you've shown is different from the one off the FW website (which has the old Ethereal rules).

Typing made it sound more intense than I actually meant it lol! I'm irritated, not genuinely angry.

 

[Ashtyn]

So I may run this list tomorrow night, let me know what you guys think.

Legion of Sacrament

Arkhan Amaranthie Orb

Necromancer (Shroud of Darkness) Overwhelming Dread

Necromancer Fading Vigour

Necromancer Soul Harvest

Vampire Lord (Wristbands of Black Gold) Vile Transference

5 Dire Wolves

5 Dire Wolves

5 Dire Wolves

10 Hexwraiths

9 Spirit Hosts

Mortis Engine

Lords of Sacrament

Balewind Vortex 

2000 points

It's a very casting heavy list but it provides good buffs to the Hexwraiths and the Spirit Hosts, obviously negatives to hit smash its face in, but I've played Nighthaunt so I expect that.

Any thoughts?

[RaritanAnon]

So Im building a list around messing with bravery and being spooky. Everything lowers bravery for the Banshee, A bit annoyed I can't find a way to slap in the extra 50 points, so any help is appreciated in that regard.

I do eventually wanna put some morghasts, a Terrorgheist like, and Neffy in there. Not sure on Blood Knights yet unless I find a conversion I like. Hexwraiths seem better, still. Also, blood ghosts sounds badass. 

Allegiance: Legion of Blood
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Flying Horror
- Trait: Aura of Dark Majesty 
- Artefact: Soulbound Garments 
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Tomb Banshee (80)
6 x Spirit Hosts (240)
5 x Hexwraiths (160)
20 x Skeleton Warriors (160)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Dire Wolves (60)

Total: 950 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 72
 

 

[Ashtyn]

11 minutes ago, RaritanAnon said:

So Im building a list around messing with bravery and being spooky. Everything lowers bravery for the Banshee, A bit annoyed I can't find a way to slap in the extra 50 points, so any help is appreciated in that regard.

I do eventually wanna put some morghasts, a Terrorgheist like, and Neffy in there. Not sure on Blood Knights yet unless I find a conversion I like. Hexwraiths seem better, still. Also, blood ghosts sounds badass. 

Allegiance: Legion of Blood
Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Flying Horror
- Trait: Aura of Dark Majesty 
- Artefact: Soulbound Garments 
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Tomb Banshee (80)
6 x Spirit Hosts (240)
5 x Hexwraiths (160)
20 x Skeleton Warriors (160)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Dire Wolves (60)

Total: 950 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 72
 

 

If you drop the Hexwraiths you could get another 2 banshees in. The Hexwraiths don't have a banner so don't increase the chances of your screams being successful.

You'd be character heavy but it would follow the theme you want to go with.

[RaritanAnon]

2 minutes ago, Ashtyn said:

If you drop the Hexwraiths you could get another 2 banshees in. The Hexwraiths don't have a banner so don't increase the chances of your screams being successful.

You'd be character heavy but it would follow the theme you want to go with.

Neat idea but I can only have 4 heroes in 1000pts as far as I know. Maybe try and fit some black knights so I can get the bravery reduction with them as well? I do like the idea of adding a second Banshee, though. 

[Ashtyn]

3 minutes ago, RaritanAnon said:

Neat idea but I can only have 4 heroes in 1000pts as far as I know. Maybe try and fit some black knights so I can get the bravery reduction with them as well? I do like the idea of adding a second Banshee, though. 

You could use the extra points to add 10 skeletons or 5 wolves which gives you more bodies.

[Kimbo]

Hi! This is what i have so far...how would you pump it up to 2k? All feedback and additions with an explenation would be great! 

 

Allegiance: Death
Nagash Supreme Lord Of The Undead (800)
Necromancer (110)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Blades
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)
- Ancient Blades
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)
- Ancient Blades
2 x Morghast Archai (220)
- Spirit Swords
The First Cohort (160)

Total: 1730 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 93
 

[RaritanAnon]

13 minutes ago, Ashtyn said:

You could use the extra points to add 10 skeletons or 5 wolves which gives you more bodies.

I could actually fit 20 more skeletons in there, but I'm not sure how happy I am about slapping around 40(!) skeletons, despite how good they might be. 

[Nactigal]

1 hour ago, RaritanAnon said:

Allegiance: Legion of Blood

Vampire Lord (140)
- General
- Mount: Flying Horror
- Trait: Aura of Dark Majesty 
- Artefact: Soulbound Garments 
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Tomb Banshee (80)
6 x Spirit Hosts (240)
5 x Hexwraiths (160)
20 x Skeleton Warriors (160)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Dire Wolves (60)

Total: 950 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 72
 

 

I like the theme here, though I fear that this list will struggle holding objectives. Maybe you could drop the hexwraiths, bump the skeletons up to 40, and dire wolves up to 10.

[RaritanAnon]

8 minutes ago, Nactigal said:

I like the theme here, though I fear that this list will struggle holding objectives. Maybe you could drop the hexwraiths, bump the skeletons up to 40, and dire wolves up to 10.

Thanks! I like how there's more to Blood than 'lol vampires'. I do want to kitbash some blood knights that look suitable for my theme. Dunno what to use yet. I don't like the dragon blade idea much. Chaos knights maybe? Anyway here is list 2, with more bodies and a coven throne instead of Banshee/lord. 

Their command ability is really nice. Reroll all rolls of 1 for a unit. Much better than one attack. Plus it still has the screaming thing from the Banshee. I can add more of that nonsense whenever I get more stuff. How's this look? Kept the Hexwraiths because ghosts. They're also hard hitting as hell. Use my spirit hosts and Hexwraiths to tie up anything hard hitting, have the support the skeletons and doggos with the necromancer, slap the coven throne somewhere in the middle. 

Allegiance: Legion of Blood
Necromancer (110)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
Coven Throne (260)
- General
- Trait: Aura of Dark Majesty 
- Artefact: Soulbound Garments 
- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine Orb
6 x Spirit Hosts (240)
30 x Skeleton Warriors (240)
- Ancient Spears
10 x Dire Wolves (120)

Total: 970 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 85