Compared to point costs of the new Nurgle battletome many Destruction models seem overpriced

[hughwyeth]

On 2/1/2018 at 9:40 PM, PlasticCraic said:

In this case Nurgle is a very valid direct comparison to a (relatively) strong and competitive Destruction unit.  So it's stricly better, way cheaper, has a further range, and is easier to cast.  Nope, nothing to see here!

I'm not sure how helpful such a comparison is- both exist in the wider context of both a grand alliance and specific force. If you compare any single unit/ability in isolation, it's pretty easy to find a huge range of discrepancies. A buff or debuff will be more valuable to one unit/force/grand alliance than another. I'm not saying GW have got this 100% right, i bet there are issues. But you look at the finals top 20 of any GT and it's clear almost any force has a shot at being competitive and i bet the new nurgle tome is going to change that much. 

[hughwyeth]

Just now, Fungrim said:

Interesting hearing it from the other side. Have to say I've only played a handful of Nurgle armies this side of the End Times, and that was with my old Order list.

The only Nurgle I've faced with my Ironjawz, is in Mixed Chaos lists. In that scenario, I'm fairly terrified of it. This is because more often than not it comes in the form of 30 Plaguebearers, and that wall... urgh... not only will I not get through it, I'll probably get battered by it - volume of attacks, buffed, will probably beat most Ironjawz elite units, especially a 3 of Gruntas or 5 Brutes.

Add to this now, the new range of benefits from the book, GUO boost etc etc - it's definitely something to be wary of.

Like anything, it all depends on what that particular list has been tailored for

30 plaguebearers are excellent, i play 2x30. Their cost did go up though and the damage output is not there, especially against brutes- there's no rend and though you can get some mortal wound output from spells (blades of putrefaction), you're unlikely to get many models in base contact with the brutes- they're on 32mm bases so you're never going to get all 30 plaguebearers in there. I havent' fielded my GUO yet, but am excited by it's abilities. It does seem undercosted, especially when the Glottkin seems about the same power level and costs over 100 points more (let alone any destruction model like the big beastclaw models). 

You make some good points RE mixed chaos. I think destruction are likely at a disadvantage as a grand alliance for fielding a Grand Alliance mixed force, compared especially to order and chaos. I mean the chaos GA book is thicker than all destruction tomes combined, there's a huge range to choose from. I'm building a beastclaw/ogors force with some aleguzzlers, though not for competitive play, so i don't care too much in that sense for destruction's competitiveness or lack thereof. 

[Richelieu]

On 1/21/2018 at 9:14 AM, Hyperion said:

Map wide multiple d3 mortals.

Yeah, this one is a head-scratcher to me.  Stormcast can do it, but at an astronomically high cost of 560 points and it's a 50/50 shot.  To grant the ability to do this from multiple sources and at a much reduced point cost gives me pause.  Also, the fully buffed plaguedrone unit is now perhaps the most terrifying unit in the game.  Huge mobility, highly resilient, devastating damage output, for 400 points + a spell and command ability.  I'll wait to pass final judgement until my local Nurgle player gets his army updated and i get some games against him, but I'm a little frightened. 

[Chris Tomlin]

Morning all,

Super interesting thread here. I've not played any games in a little while now (to be rectified soon enough!) but after studying the Maggotkin of Nurgle book pretty extensively, I'd be lying if I said I did not share some of the same initial thoughts as you guys.

In my theoyhammer musings I do suspect that Nurgle will now be able to operate in a very similar way to Ironjawz (if they chose to, there is plenty of scope for variety in army builds and playstyles there, though that's a different topic), albeit more effective and efficiently. Now I'm certainly not saying it's all doom and gloom, as you know I do like to stay more on the positive side of things with regards to AoS. So with that said, I am actually really keen to hear of any in game experiences people have had thus far and indeed look forward to taking them on myself.

I guess there are two different points of concern here. The first is just whether Nurgle are another new army that we will really struggle to beat in a one on one setting - this is something we can work on and hopefully solve. The second is the bigger picture and indeed the crux of the thread, which is how they compare to Ironjawz vs other armies (ie over the course of a 5 game tournament would Nurgle do better than Ironajwz, given the same style of play and opponents).

Unfortunately for now this is pretty much a nothing post as I don't have any actual data, anecdotal or otherwise, to take this any further. But it's certainly an intriguing topic.

Chris

[hughwyeth]

5 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

In my theoyhammer musings I do suspect that Nurgle will now be able to operate in a very similar way to Ironjawz (if they chose to, there is plenty of scope for variety in army builds and playstyles there, though that's a different topic), albeit more effective and efficiently.

I am in no way a super-tactical player, but I have played ironjawz twice and there is no way Nurgle can compete in their areas of strength- running into combat and doing a ******-ton of damage in a single combat round. The two times I've played ironjawz, I'm merely trying to manage their units, using Nurgle's resilience to last the rounds. 6 Plague Drones gone in a single round of combat with brutes, the rest of my army slowly warn away in combat. Again, I'm not a super experienced player, but that's my experience. 

[PlasticCraic]

10 hours ago, hughwyeth said:

I am in no way a super-tactical player, but I have played ironjawz twice and there is no way Nurgle can compete in their areas of strength- running into combat and doing a ******-ton of damage in a single combat round. The two times I've played ironjawz, I'm merely trying to manage their units, using Nurgle's resilience to last the rounds. 6 Plague Drones gone in a single round of combat with brutes, the rest of my army slowly warn away in combat. Again, I'm not a super experienced player, but that's my experience. 

I've played against Nurgle with my IJ in a practice game and it was very hard going.  He used a Plaguetouched Warband which is essentially a(nother) hard counter to IJ.  For those who don't know, you do mortal wounds to yourself in the combat phase whenever you roll a wound roll of 6+ against them.  Also you are -1 to hit in the combat phase.  

He got a massive block of Chaos warriors in my face turn 1 (not sure how he got them there, but it might have been a spell?).  I think he paid for 30 and took 28 to get the batallion bonus.  Then they were essentially unkillable to an army that relies on the combat phase for its damage output - I was killing myself quicker than I was killing him.  So that's one way you'll be able to compete in the combat phase against IJ - any army that relies on its combat phase is essentially obsolete against it.  

The exception might be armies with "set up" abilities, so you can bypass the shield wall completely.  Ironjawz being an army that has only conventional movement aren't in that position unfortunately.  The closest you can get is flying the Maw Krusha over the top, but then he's sitting there on his own (and they can restrict your ability to land that big base too, depending on their positioning).

As a wider point, it does feel like a LOT of the debuffs in this game are combat-phase specific.  I think that's the hidden reason some people feel shooting is OP - there are a couple of things (e.g. Mirrorshield) that debuff shooting specifically.  But often beyond the tactical advantages (clearing off enemies before the charge phase, targetting heroes), shooting is a way to bypass your opponent's special abilities (Blood Warriors piling in when they die, Skull Reapers doing Mortal Wounds when they die, the whole Jabberslythe insanity, Free Guild shooting you up when you charge, etc etc).  Plaguetouched is another good example of that.

[PlasticCraic]

Has anyone gone mano el mano with the Maw Krusha against a GUO / Rotigus?  How did it play out?

All that healing tells me you need to do them in a one-er, is that feasible?

[heywoah_twitch]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

Has anyone gone mano el mano with the Maw Krusha against a GUO / Rotigus?  How did it play out?

All that healing tells me you need to do them in a one-er, is that feasible?

Cant speak for maw, but I can say that beastclaw behemoths, while more expensive, are no match for them while also not having an amazing command ability, artefact options, nor two amazing spells. They can be nearly as fast and as deadly in combat if they wish to be, but they have other, better options.

In a straight fight the 340 guo came out on top vs 460 stonehorn in my one nurgle game (with seemingly average rolls), while acting as a potent force multiplier, having more resilience than stone skeleton and healing more than pelt.

Hitting on 4s almost singlehandedly makes beastclaw uncompetitive - getting easily debuffed to hit on 5s is 'just tell me that you can do that and we don't even need to play it out, you win' tier. The 5+ ward does the rest. 

[SolarBur]

sorry if this feels like a revival of an old thread, but i think there is still some use here. 

compared to the new nurgle battletome and feeling like destruction is a bit on the overpriced part, i haven't looked into the new nagash book so i don't know if the points for death units have changed all that much, how much of a points decrease do you think some warscrolls would need to reflect their strengths ? 

i think it was mentioned somewhere else in the destruction forums, but for BR's the huskard and frostlord seem a bit too expensive for what they do. a huskard even losing out on attacks and potential damage but having a 20pt increase from a regular beastrider team. do you think that the different beastrider teams, huskards, and frostlords should be lower points but not the same points as their counterparts to reflect what the beasts can and can't do ? 

i do think for the most part though that the hunter, mournfang cavalry, yhetee's and frost sabres are pretty good at the points they are. 

what about the rest of destruction, any thoughts on the points for other factions ? 

[heywoah_twitch]

On 2/15/2018 at 3:06 PM, SolarBur said:

i think it was mentioned somewhere else in the destruction forums, but for BR's the huskard and frostlord seem a bit too expensive for what they do. a huskard even losing out on attacks and potential damage but having a 20pt increase from a regular beastrider team. do you think that the different beastrider teams, huskards, and frostlords should be lower points but not the same points as their counterparts to reflect what the beasts can and can't do ? 

Yes, if they want each tier of beast (battleline, hero, leader-hero) to be the same cost, then their warscrolls should reflect that equivalence and currently they do not. BCR was an early battletome and it shows (so many redundant effects/warscrolls/abilities). As for lower points:

Artefacts not affecting mounts and old stone skeleton effectively giving them ~20 wounds (instead of 12) are together probably worth well over 100 points, especially now that we have so many strong new battletomes coming out. Compare 4x mournfang at 320 to the stonehorns at 360+ and the behemoths are considerably worse while also being more expensive (and mournfang themselves are good but not great. Being better than gore-gruntas isn't exactly worth a gold-star, especially without warchanters/waagh).

I think our behemoths should cost magmadroth level prices. They are fragile and unreliable hitters, but fast and have a high potential damage. Current stonehorn beastriders 240, huskard  260, frostlord 360. As for the thundertusks, in my opinion, should get a new warscroll that isn't a complete 1-trick pony that is frustrating to play against for new/casual players, but then downright bad against competitive ones. He's very comparable to 10 doomfire warlocks.

You might think these prices are crazy, but we don't have bodies or teleports or 80pt deepstrikes for our best units or great allegiance abilities or artefacts or 100 point force multiplying point and click buff heroes or flying or long range or good command abilities or traits or spells or prayers and everyone hits on 4s so maybe we can have undercosted monsters in the army that's supposed to be about monsters.