Compared to point costs of the new Nurgle battletome many Destruction models seem overpriced

[Infeston]

I looked at the points in the new Nurgle battletome and I was schocked how low the point costs were compared to the point costs for some of the Destruction units. 

For example the centerpieces of both armies Maw-Krusha and Great Unclean One. The GUO only costs 340 points while the Maw-Krusha and Frostlord on Stonehorn cost 460 points. Also if I look at the durability of the GUO I find the outcrys about the Stonehorn's durability a little bit off considering the GUO has 16 wounds and can ignore wounds on a 5+.

This is not the only example where I find the Nurgle units a bit underpriced (or the Destruction units a bit too overpriced) in comparison. Is here anyone sharing my oppinion or do you think I am exaggerating?

The thing is that many people complained about the Kunning Rukk Stonehorn combi very often and many Destruction units were adjusted so that we strongly lost our competitive viability while at the same time GW publishes a new battletome with units that seem to be extremely undercoasted for their overall potential. And at the moment I am not even talking about the allegiance abilities. Many of the allegiance abilities are insane. If you compare this to all the Destruction allegiance ability tuning it just doesn't seem fair in my eyes.

I hope this doesn't come off as a rant. I just want to discuss if my points are legitimate or if I am wrong. I could continue in describing other point differences if you look at Brutes for example, or mournfang cavalry compared to pusgoyle blightlords etc.

But I want to know what you all feel about this. This is just my opinion. And I don't want to attack anyone or flame about GW. Just want to start a civil discussion about the topic. It can also be that someone thinks different about this. But I want to discuss and talk about the things going on at the moment. If the point costs are unfair is sometimes very subjective.

Greetings,

Infeston

[heywoah_twitch]

I take it as a preview of the ghb18 changes we can expect tbh. 

The resilience, healing, spells, abilities, and damage of GUO leaves me pretty excited about how high the ceiling can be for proper Stonehorns, in our army without any of the synergies or spells.

[Turragor]

I agree with the BCR but I'm not really up top speed on what a Mawcrusha can do with synergy.

Basically, you can't really look at points cost as a direct comparison like that.

Take a Stardrake for instance - 560 (!) points with 16 wounds with a 3+ save rerolling 1s. No ward save. You'd think it's way overpriced when compared with the GUO. It can struggle to do top tier damage (except versus hordes) so it pales next to the Frostlord on Stonehorn. Alone on paper it may even be less durable than a Frostlord on stonehorn (the maths are no doubt out there proving one way or the other).

And then none of the behemoths can move like the stonehorn can (not really).

However, it the Stardrake some interesting breath attacks, it can eat up to 3 times per combat phase (probably the most important attack it has) and it can collect many buffs from other units in the SC army, and it can be buffed in such a way that it reaches a 1+ rerolling 1 save (if it receives a charge) healing taken wounds back on a 5+.

IE it is worth those points (imo) and is not overpriced.  If it were cheaper and was still used with all the synergy it has, it'd be outrageous basically.

At the same time, Nurgle has a bunch of synergy too! And the GUO is a potent caster.

So in short, I agree with heywoah_twitch - some changes are probably to come for the big destruction behemoths. I'd rather see them elevated in performance (BCR synergy via thundertusks as enormous buff platforms plz!) than simply taken down in points I think.

 

 

[Infeston]

3 hours ago, Turragor said:

So in short, I agree with heywoah_twitch - some changes are probably to come for the big destruction behemoths. I'd rather see them elevated in performance (BCR synergy via thundertusks as enormous buff platforms plz!) than simply taken down in points I think.

I can agree with this. I also would be happier about better synergies and performance improvements instead of point adjustments.

I just wanted to point out that I find the point adjustments and rule changes for Destruction unnecessary when there are still models who perform much much better in comparison points-wise. I know you can't compare the point costs directly because of synergies etc,

But even with synergies and performance in consideration I still find the point costs and rules for Destruction unfair and unreasonable. Because let's face it, Destruction Grand Alliance seems to be the weakest at the moment, even though we should be the alliance that should be very good at wrecking ******. Even our melee units underperform compared to some melee units in shooting heavy armies. I would think that if Destruction has melee focused armies they also should have some of the best melee fighters. 

But there are other armies which have good shooting AND good melee fighters, while we only have good melee fighters who also often underperform compared to others. BUt that is my opinion, I could also be wrong.

[heywoah_twitch]

 I'll say that death is worse off atm, and the upcoming malign portents stuff is much needed for them, just don't forget the first few 'tomes made in a very different era in need of a facelift (and of course guys like gutbusters still waiting for a book in the first place)!

Honestly we could really do with some of that "two battletomes a month for 6 months" thing that 40k has enjoyed. 

[Goodapollo4]

Hopefully we will get some love this year. I see the Legions of Nagash as a great sign, a tome like that could help get us back on our feet before a new Destruction army is released.

Nurgle is a good example of the kind of progressive power creep we always see, sucks even more when many other armies have objectively better tools. 

[Malakree]

To some extent it's not all power creep, if rampaging destroyers hadn't been obliterated then we wouldn't be strictly worse.

[albin100]

I think the cost for GG, ardboys,brutes and ironfist is alright for the moment. I haven't tried any other battalions nor a MBoMK or Grodrakk but I think, as @Malakree has talked about in another page, that IJ needs a bit clarifications and rewrites on abilities. We have hard hitting infantry which can't be too cheap.

[Turragor]

1 hour ago, Goodapollo4 said:

Nurgle is a good example of the kind of progressive power creep we always see, sucks even more when many other armies have objectively better tools. 

My gut tells me Tzeentch was worse than nurgle (for some armies). I think that's a pretty good sign all things considered.

[Aexae]

Imo the Nurgle tome is beautifully done, but as said earlier we need rebalancing rather fast. If i look at BCR i get really sad right now. I am more of a casual player but im looking to get my butt kicked with BCR... Luckily enough i play Nurgle aswell

What i woulde wish for would be a Forces of the Everwinter Tome. With savage tribe of humans, Ice/frost witches and of course our beloved Icy ogors. Lets hope the best for death this year and that Moonclan might get a few nice things and hope we are back in the game with BCR when the next GHB drops.

 

[chord]

Agreed Nurgle is very undercosted.  

[Turragor]

12 hours ago, chord said:

Agreed Nurgle is very undercosted.  

Would you rather face changehost or blight cyst?

[Anaticula]

We will see how strong Nurgle turns out to be soon. I don't think that they are overall as annoyingly strong as Tzeentch, BUT when I look at Blight Kings I get sick. Not only because of the obvious pestilence but because of their pricing: 140 pts for 5 with an increase of one wound per model i.e. 4 and 5 wounds for the champion. Brutes have 3 wounds and cost 180 pts. Please nobody tell me that it is well balanced.

[Richelieu]

On 1/16/2018 at 3:24 AM, Turragor said:

Would you rather face changehost or blight cyst?

Changehost. 

Think about it in these terms.  Liberators aren't necessarily the end-all be-all of battle line, but they do act as a calibration point.  Putrid Blightkings are simply better in every way, not just one or two, but every way.  They are more resilient for the points, they put out more damage and they can more easily take advantage of mobility buffs.  This would be understandable if Nurgle had a limited toolbox and had to rely upon Blightkings to fill multiple roles, but that is not the case.  I play against Tzeentch regularly and once you know the dos and don'ts against the list and what it is going to try to do to you, it becomes manageable (this is from a Stormcast perspective, but knowing your enemy is the first step to beating him, regardless of the list you bring).

[PlasticCraic]

6 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

Changehost. 

Think about it in these terms.  Liberators aren't necessarily the end-all be-all of battle line, but they do act as a calibration point.  Putrid Blightkings are simply better in every way, not just one or two, but every way.  They are more resilient for the points, they put out more damage and they can more easily take advantage of mobility buffs.  This would be understandable if Nurgle had a limited toolbox and had to rely upon Blightkings to fill multiple roles, but that is not the case.  I play against Tzeentch regularly and once you know the dos and don'ts against the list and what it is going to try to do to you, it becomes manageable (this is from a Stormcast perspective, but knowing your enemy is the first step to beating him, regardless of the list you bring).

Agree with the sentiment above @Richelieu. 

As an aside, what tips would you have for playing against Changehost?

[Richelieu]

1 minute ago, PlasticCraic said:

Agree with the sentiment above @Richelieu. 

As an aside, what tips would you have for playing against Changehost?

I just think deeply about which model(s) or unit(s) are going to have the greatest impact on my ability to score victory points.  I try to waste as few resources attacking my enemy as possible.  This isn't necessarily transferable to all factions, unfortunately, since for some the strategic calculus consists almost exclusively of: "which enemy units do I smash my guys into"

Most useful advice is probably to present juicy targets to your opponent that you don't care about losing, but will eat up their offensive resources.  For me that is frequently a unit of Fulminators sweeping around a flank.  They're not gaining me any VPs, so I don't really care if my opponent spends time killing them, but if left unchecked they're going to kill whatever is in front of them.  Always be on the lookout for ways to set up win/win situations like that.

[Turragor]

9 hours ago, Richelieu said:

I just think deeply about which model(s) or unit(s) are going to have the greatest impact on my ability to score victory points.  I try to waste as few resources attacking my enemy as possible.  This isn't necessarily transferable to all factions, unfortunately, since for some the strategic calculus consists almost exclusively of: "which enemy units do I smash my guys into"

Most useful advice is probably to present juicy targets to your opponent that you don't care about losing, but will eat up their offensive resources.  For me that is frequently a unit of Fulminators sweeping around a flank.  They're not gaining me any VPs, so I don't really care if my opponent spends time killing them, but if left unchecked they're going to kill whatever is in front of them.  Always be on the lookout for ways to set up win/win situations like that.

I'm not 100% sure I follow and full disclosure at the start I ofc haven't met blight cyst yet and have no experience against changehost other than study and reading and scratching my head thinking 'what would I do if the changehost player is at least as good as me?' So I'd love your advice!

What do you take? Do you deploy in the corner? How do you screen? Do you crowd the changeling out? How do you best approach the unit 'breakdown and replenishment' of the horrors? As a tarpit I guess a heraldor has uses.

The way I see it is as follows: A competent Changehost player won't care about anything but the core of your army and you have to bring it out to get the game moving. They can dictate who starts and they don't need to rush their core forward. They'll use their replenishable pink - blue - brimstone screens to stop you reaching the LoCs and to sit on objectives and start the points collection.

You can't shield that from the LoCs and other sources of mw output without a greater footprint than a traditional SC army can operate with against other lists. I've tried creating a large footprint but still with some elite punch.

So the army you need to beat changehost loses to 3/4 of your other opponents (maybe, I hope to test my LCoSD, 4 fulm and 30 vulkites on saturday)... unless it's Vanguard wing. But I'd rather not play that myself as I'd need to paint up 15 more liberators

So for me I think that on paper, it seems like blight cyst is just the easier match up for SC if you're not heavy ranged and don't have 1 main threat unit (which'll get debuffed to ineffectiveness).

9 hours ago, Richelieu said:

Putrid Blightkings are simply better in every way, not just one or two, but every way. 

Yeah but they cost 60% more. And to make them anything but kittens they need a ton of synergy - they'll need a good number of direct or indirect buffs to do anything at all to a stormcast unit. In fact the best thing Nurgle can do against SC now is take very cheap horde unit, like 40 marauders with an icon and blades of putrefaction.

[Lysandestolpe]

I think the scary thing about nurgle is its capabilities to dish out loads of mortal wounds, at the same time it heals its units and wounds back, as well as being able to make shooty armies and combat armies hit worse. It is basically what kills destruction armies, ironjawz, most. I played tzeentch, not a hardcore list, but 6 skyfires, changehost, gaunt summoner on balewind, and a lord of change. Despite the fact that i rolled superbly the entire game, and he rolled like ******, litteraly poop dice, i did not win the game. The only thing that made it somewhat of a challenge for him was that he could not really regain models or wounds throughout the game, beynd the horror splitting ability of course. 

Well now, nurgle can. 

In order to combat these types of armies, i think there needs to be armies on the spectrum much like spirit hosts denying rend abilities but for mortal wounds. And destruction does need something to make them not as much of a “i need 6s all game long” type army to beat this type of mortal wound meta before it becomes too overwhelming. 

Ironjawz need to get into combat, there is no other way to win for us. Brutes need to be able to hit and gruntas need to last. This is what i see being the uphill right now with the new nurgle release. In regards to point cost, I can only speak for ironjawz, as BCR are self explanatorially sucky, the points seem allright to me. I can make a good armylist at 2k that has enough units to withstand most non mortal wound based armies. I do however see the need for the following additions to the army:

another spellcaster, preferably a character that can cast some form of forcefield of protection buff

another ability that can buff hit or wound rolls until next hero phase

some form of ranged shooting unit, either longer range or outflanking/deepstriking

smaller flyer units

gore grunta megaboss that can buff regular gruntas to do mortal wounds on the charge - basiaclly in a similar manner as the mawcrusher, to keep up with the new change in the game towards the mortal wound meta. 

[Turragor]

Yeah they need something interesting to counter the mw spree.

But what I don't see is the best placing Nurgle lists being the most mw heavy variants. I think the best are more than likely going to be blight cyst which looks to have a humble mw output (with a focus on taking high saves down instead of ignoring wound and save rolls - I think that's better for balance).

 

[angrycontra]

Although I agree that destruction has plenty overpriced units, I don't really see how nurgle is relevant to that at all. The only warscroll in the entire book that I consider underpriced is blight kings (and even that isn't gamebreakingly cheap). Everything else got basically significantly increased in their points or remained same as original. As for someone like GUO, now he is usefull but he is no combat beast. Sure he is tougher than mawkrusha and stone horn in terms of wounds but both of those would kick the living blight out of Guo in melee. Are they overpriced compared to GUO, well yeah maybe, but again that is like saying that they are overpriced compared literally to any balanced unit. I just feel that some tone in this thread attacks nurgle for being "undercosted" when they should be talking about how destruction units are overcosted. Have you actually tried to build nurgle army? Stuff in this tome costs so much that I have to constantly dance around what I want to add to my lists and what I need to drop. If they were more expensive, I probably couldn't add single damn pusgoyle blighlords unit in my army.

Also @Anaticula those blight kings are 5 for 160, not 140. I don't see that being unfair compared to faster goregruntas who have 1 extra wound, solid melee profile and cost of 140 (even if it is only 3 models).

[Malakree]

@angrycontra

The point is that up until this point there hasn't been an army which is equivalent to ironjawz. The new nurgle army however is basically the same as IJ, it does all the same things, as the same strengths and rolls even down to equivalent unit sizes/costs.

That puts into perspective just how limited we, and most of destruction, actually is at the moment.

Nurgle is just IJ++ it has mortal wound output, protection against mortal wounds, ranged attack potential, better casting, better spells, ways around the mobility problems. 

Essentially we are jealous that nurgle had suddenly sidestepped into our space while keeping everything it had before and gaining things we just lost.

It's a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

[Richelieu]

7 hours ago, Turragor said:

I'm not 100% sure I follow and full disclosure at the start I ofc haven't met blight cyst yet and have no experience against changehost other than study and reading and scratching my head thinking 'what would I do if the changehost player is at least as good as me?' So I'd love your advice!

What do you take? Do you deploy in the corner? How do you screen? Do you crowd the changeling out? How do you best approach the unit 'breakdown and replenishment' of the horrors? As a tarpit I guess a heraldor has uses.

The way I see it is as follows: A competent Changehost player won't care about anything but the core of your army and you have to bring it out to get the game moving. They can dictate who starts and they don't need to rush their core forward. They'll use their replenishable pink - blue - brimstone screens to stop you reaching the LoCs and to sit on objectives and start the points collection.

You can't shield that from the LoCs and other sources of mw output without a greater footprint than a traditional SC army can operate with against other lists. I've tried creating a large footprint but still with some elite punch.

So the army you need to beat changehost loses to 3/4 of your other opponents (maybe, I hope to test my LCoSD, 4 fulm and 30 vulkites on saturday)... unless it's Vanguard wing. But I'd rather not play that myself as I'd need to paint up 15 more liberators

So for me I think that on paper, it seems like blight cyst is just the easier match up for SC if you're not heavy ranged and don't have 1 main threat unit (which'll get debuffed to ineffectiveness).

Yeah but they cost 60% more. And to make them anything but kittens they need a ton of synergy - they'll need a good number of direct or indirect buffs to do anything at all to a stormcast unit. In fact the best thing Nurgle can do against SC now is take very cheap horde unit, like 40 marauders with an icon and blades of putrefaction.

Because the Changehost position swap takes place at the beginning of the phase now rather than at any time, the Tzeentch player can't swap in, blow up your army and then swap out, so I mostly just ignore the Changeling and accept that if my opponent swaps something into my deployment zone I'll lose some stuff of his choosing, but at least get some sort of trade out of it.

I also ignore horrors for the most part.  Their ability to do damage to Stormcast units is almost non-existent, so I just go about my business until my opponent tarpits me, which usually means they have been brought into a position where I can bring enough force to bear on them to wipe out a unit in one go.

[Richelieu]

9 hours ago, Malakree said:

@angrycontra

The point is that up until this point there hasn't been an army which is equivalent to ironjawz. The new nurgle army however is basically the same as IJ, it does all the same things, as the same strengths and rolls even down to equivalent unit sizes/costs.

That puts into perspective just how limited we, and most of destruction, actually is at the moment.

Nurgle is just IJ++ it has mortal wound output, protection against mortal wounds, ranged attack potential, better casting, better spells, ways around the mobility problems. 

Essentially we are jealous that nurgle had suddenly sidestepped into our space while keeping everything it had before and gaining things we just lost.

It's a pretty bitter pill to swallow.

I disagree with the characterization that Nurgle just does what IJ does, but better.  At no point would I be worried about a Nurgle charge.  They're going to get up in my face, sit there and block me from doing stuff,  whereas IJ is going to get up up into my face, kill stuff and move on to the next target.  I'm not saying I think IJ is better as it's pretty plain to see that they don't have the same size toolkit and they are overpriced in comparison, however just because they can both get up in your face quickly doesn't mean they do the same thing.

[Turragor]

7 hours ago, Richelieu said:

Because the Changehost position swap takes place at the beginning of the phase now rather than at any time, the Tzeentch player can't swap in, blow up your army and then swap out

I'd love to know if this is an faq thing or just common sense in some circles. In case I meet a changehost player playing it another way. 

[Richelieu]

1 minute ago, Turragor said:

I'd love to know if this is an faq thing or just common sense in some circles. In case I meet a changehost player playing it another way. 

Page 3 of the Chaos FAQ.  It's a complete rewording of the Deceive and Dismay ability text.