PJetski Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I've noticed a lot of discussion online about numerous tournaments and competitive gaming clubs banning the Balewind Vortex from Matched Play. Some view doubling the range of spells to be too powerful in combination with certain wizards (Kroak, Gaunt Summoner, a summoned Herald of Tzeentch) or that it's just not fun to play with/against. Some people say that summoning it on an objective to deny anyone from being within range is abusive and breaks the game. What are your thoughts on this piece of scenery? Do people just need to "git gud" and learn to play around it? Is it too powerful and needs to be banned? Could it be reigned in with rule or point cost changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jabber Tzeentch Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I think it’s fine as it is now. I would like to see more summoned terrain and more ways to manipulate the board with your army so every faction has access to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 As a Bloodbound player I've found it frustrating when it's meant I've not been able to do anything to remove the caster and they simply nuke me from safety. That said, I think the points and inability to resummon indefinitely has balanced it out on the whole. However as @The Jabber Tzeentch says, if we all had terrain like that then it would ultimately balance out - especially if we all had an alternative mechanics for summoning (which is what they've done for Nurgle). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Double post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aginor Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 My major gripe is actually not a gripe with the BWV but with armies not having some options. A wizard on top is melee immune. So normally I'd say it punishes people for bringing an unbalanced army with no shooting. ....the problem is: some armies do not have shooting at all. Ironjawz for example practically cannot beat a Balewind list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 If ranged based armies have summonable scenery that makes them immune to melee, melee armies should have summonable scenery that makes them immune to ranged attacks . . . I.e. something that means you can’t shoot or magic the Blood Secreator or Warboss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redmanphill Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 It’s ultimately an unbalancing factor in the game with armies having to be crafted to deal with it specifically. I don’t like it, I play a lot with Ironjawz so I am biased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokek Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 The balewind vortex fits the high fantasy vibe of AoS really well. It is possible to build an army that struggles to deal with it but with GHB17 and allies it really is always a choice to build an army that way - in which case I'm not sure that I need to care that someone is unhappy with the outcome of their choice. The existence of mortal wounds gives some lists almost auto-lose matchups. The existence of hordes gives other lists almost auto-lose matchups. I do not see why certain one-dimensional lists need to be artificially protected from their own inherent weakness by banning the thing that counters them. If you choose to take a themed fluffy one-dimensional list to a tournament then the risk of hitting a horrible matchup is part of that choice, live with it don't ban it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigwarus Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I think it's unbalanced at its current cost. Hopefully it goes up. It's such a no-brainer for seraphon and tzeentch. At least the latter will stay competitive without it. In our area we have banned it at tournaments and it works great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Hawkins Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Something else no one has mentioned-- I've heard that, since models can't be within 3" of a Balewind, they'll cast the spell and place it, pushing models in front of it forward so they are more than 3" away (which based on the size of the thing's base could be up to 7 or 8 inches if the models were right in front of the Wizard). This effectively gives those models a substantial free move. I think something that might help curtail the more abusive casters being on top is if they prohibit "Behemoths" from being on top of the Balewind as well as Monsters. Not sure how they would do that, as I don't believe warscrolls can have rules pertaining to the stipulations of Matched Play. They could probably add that caveat in the Matched Play section of the rules, though. Personally, I've never played with or against one. It's a cool model, but maybe not worth the hassle outside of Narrative games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnelian Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 It's fun mostly fun but can be a bit overpowering for certain combinations (e.g. Kroak) and can be difficult to defeat for melee only armies. It's a bit "rock paper scissors" but I'm not sure how to change that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozokus Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 From observation, the problem does not comes from the vortex but from AoE spells with multiple targets. With normal spells, you get extended range, safety for the wizzard and bonus to cast. With AoE spells, you also get more dammage as the extended range means extra targets. Yet i like the image of the wizzard on the top of a column of energy that wreck havok around him. An honorable solution would be to cap the number of targets of thoses spells or to cap the range of thoses novas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 9 hours ago, tokek said: The balewind vortex fits the high fantasy vibe of AoS really well. It is possible to build an army that struggles to deal with it but with GHB17 and allies it really is always a choice to build an army that way - in which case I'm not sure that I need to care that someone is unhappy with the outcome of their choice. The existence of mortal wounds gives some lists almost auto-lose matchups. The existence of hordes gives other lists almost auto-lose matchups. I do not see why certain one-dimensional lists need to be artificially protected from their own inherent weakness by banning the thing that counters them. If you choose to take a themed fluffy one-dimensional list to a tournament then the risk of hitting a horrible matchup is part of that choice, live with it don't ban it. Sadly some of those one-dimensional lists are that way because that's the way the armies are designed to work (Ironjawz have been mentioned a couple of times and are a good example of this, but there are a few others too). It's a poor show if a single scenery piece forces people to substantially adjust their army just on the off-chance they may come across it, which I think is what this discussion is about. One adjustment I would make is that models can only use a Balewind if they have a wounds characteristic of 6 or less. This would exclude Kroak who has a wounds characteristic of * and mean Behemoths cannot use it. I'd also tweak it so that if the summoner dies the model is unsummoned 2 hours ago, Rob Hawkins said: Something else no one has mentioned-- I've heard that, since models can't be within 3" of a Balewind, they'll cast the spell and place it, pushing models in front of it forward so they are more than 3" away (which based on the size of the thing's base could be up to 7 or 8 inches if the models were right in front of the Wizard). This effectively gives those models a substantial free move. Sorry to go off tangent a little here (and could well need an official FAQ) but I'd say that in order to set up a Balewind Vortex, the caster should have enough space around them to place the model without moving any other models. Once set up you and your opponent then move everything within 3" aside as per the rules on the warscroll for summoning it. Moving models to set up the Balewind isn't how the warscroll is written to work (and apologies again, this does risk the post going away from the topic and me getting poked for reading something incorrectly ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotrek Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Everyone has a way to deal with the balewind. Magic, prayers, allied shooting units, its a matter of making sure your list can handle everything thats going to be thrown at it. Just like how people have to build in ways to deal with skyfires or other forms of mortal wound spam (whether it be saves against MW or just having enough bodies to soak the damage). Its one of those things where it does warp the meta around it which is bad in some sense but it can be countered by every army as long as you assume that you need a way to deal with a balewind from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Buckler Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 For our club invitational the balewind will be banned. It gives a negative play experience to a lot of players. Honetsly think it should just be removed from matched play, such a simple fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 all these claims of one-dimensional lists are quite frankly, false. khorne has shooting ironjawz has spells and can ally in shooting. etc etc there's plenty of it. people just dont take these things are they are trying to maximise a singular thing for maximum output to deal crushing damage " oh no, i cant kill that dude on the top killing all my important characters and troops, whatever shall I do? ban it! it's bad for the meta it's forcing me to pick something suboptimal for my list and creating variance in games and evolving list design. " you know how you mix things up and force people to change? stuff like the balewind. the 100 points cost on it I feel is restricting the flow of meta by forcing it out of some lists as there simply isn't enough room for it meaning that its seen so rarely people don't bother to counter it, but cry about it when they do eventually match up against it as they didn't plan on it so just want it removed. its got such a bad name on it from times of old people just don't want to try deal with it. its not the balewind, its your list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riavan Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I think it shouldn't have immunity to melee. It gives enough substantial buffs for its cost. Ironjawz has one wizard that is pretty hard to fit into out lists considering his cost compared to other units and synergies. I'd be happier if every tournament banned them. But I also want to see a tzen Nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I just wrote a long post and have changed it as I had a bit of realisation over what my issues actually are. The Balewind can stop one player participating in part of the game, especially when combined with certain spells*. The vast majority of the time, I don't need to know what my opponent is bringing. I should be able to form some form of tactical plan as I'm placing my army and as the game progresses - my opponent has plonked down a greater daemon so I know I need to try and get units A, B and C into combat with it. If I don't manage to do that it's likely bad rolling or (more likely) bad tactics. The Balewind doesn't have that, if I don't have something to counter it then there's nothing I can do - if I do have something that can easily counter it my opponent can instead summon something different, they've lost absolutely nothing. The whole "change your list" argument - verges on the awful "git gud" response which is one of the worst responses to see in any hobby and in this case is basically saying "buy more models because you've made bad choices". I choose to play a melee focused army - it's what my army does best, my ranged attacks are expensive and largely unreliable so in order to optimise what I bring to the table I have built the army in a way that feels right and looks decent on the table. I could field more ranged units, but quite rightly my opponents would look at me with a raised eyebrow as they proceed to wipe the floor with me. * Just to note - an area of effect spell has it's area quadrupled, off the top of my head nothing else within the game quadruples the performance of an ability (apart from the Celestant Prime staying up in the heavens for 3 turns) without some form of negative effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 The khannon does d6 wounds. 3+3+-2 rend. That's a 1/3rd chance of killing it instantly. 180 points in a all comers list against a single model which will utterly destory your army... seems fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 If you choose not to deal with it, it is your choice. It is not a matter of "git gud", but that you are actively choosing to not to try to play a take all comers list and then get punished for that decission. It seems completely fair. If the complaint is about more casual minded games, just speak with your opponent, we are adults here. @Rob Hawkins Monsters can't be on top of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, Arkiham said: The khannon does d6 wounds. 3+3+-2 rend. That's a 1/3rd chance of killing it instantly. 180 points in a all comers list against a single model which will utterly destory your army... seems fair. So a Khorne player needs to spend double the points to have a 15% to counter a Balewind tactic? I think the tone of the posts objecting to some sort of rethink are a little over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Charles said: So a Khorne player needs to spend double the points to have a 15% to counter a Balewind tactic? I think the tone of the posts objecting to some sort of rethink are a little over the top. You are not spending double the points... You counter the balewind + sorcerer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Keldaur said: You are not spending double the points... You counter the balewind + sorcerer. That’s a little subjective, the sorcerer can be counted normally. A Khorne player would like only need the Skull Cannon to counter the Balewind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnelian Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I completely understand why we should ban Kroak on a Balewind.... But MAN HE LOOKS AWESOME UP THERE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, Charles said: So a Khorne player needs to spend double the points to have a 15% to counter a Balewind tactic? I think the tone of the posts objecting to some sort of rethink are a little over the top. Double the points ? Summoner on balewind is..240 points. A skull cannon is 180. If kroak that's 640? Still 2 skullcannons will kill him at 360, or 540 is 3... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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