Updating Ironjawz

[Imperial]

22 minutes ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

There was a question asked at the GW Seminar Wednesday evening about Ironjawz. The GW rep said from what he's seen in the studio, you're going to be happy. So it appears our boyz are in the works for an update, but it's likely we won't see this until the end of the year, or sometime in 2019

Thx for info

[someone2040]

42 minutes ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

There was a question asked at the GW Seminar Wednesday evening about Ironjawz. The GW rep said from what he's seen in the studio, you're going to be happy. So it appears our boyz are in the works for an update, but it's likely we won't see this until the end of the year, or sometime in 2019

I think in particular Vince Ventrulla mentioned that they said they were an Ironjawz player and asked about Destruction.

And the response was that the GW rep was also an Ironjawz player, and from what he's seen in the pipeline Destruction have a lot to look forward to in the future.

So perhaps don't necessarily read it as 'Ironjawz are getting updates in the next few years' so much as Destruction is going to get something in the next few years. Which is kinda obvious in a way anyway.

Personally I would hope that Destruction get something this year, even if it's some form of combined tome or two in the  latter half of 2018. Best case would be expanding a faction like Moonclan (As they probably tie in most to the Malign Portents).

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

There was a question asked at the GW Seminar Wednesday evening about Ironjawz. The GW rep said from what he's seen in the studio, you're going to be happy. So it appears our boyz are in the works for an update, but it's likely we won't see this until the end of the year, or sometime in 2019

We might get warscroll/points updates with gbh 2018 to get us through the year of death. I would settle for that

[Imperial]

49 minutes ago, Malakree said:

We might get warscroll/points updates with gbh 2018 to get us through the year of death. I would settle for that

Warscroll cards was released with last GHB so i think we need wait until battletome... It's was good joke from gw give cards only for Ironjawz as army with old version of battletome w/o all.

[broche]

5 hours ago, Malakree said:

We might get warscroll/points updates with gbh 2018 to get us through the year of death. I would settle for that

+1

if they could at least price batallion based on their real strenght, we could profit from a little point drop here (Gorefist/Ironfist/Weirdfist being the most playable i see them between 120-180) 

Also i think spells could be included in GHB to complement their ability. Doesn't take much more room than to write 6 runes for Fyreslayer. Or i liked the prayer idea for warchanter too

[Malakithe]

1 minute ago, broche said:

+1

if they could at least price batallion based on their real strenght, we could profit from a little point drop here (Gorefist/Ironfist/Weirdfist being the most playable i see them between 120-180) 

Also i think spells could be included in GHB to complement their ability. Doesn't take much more room than to write 6 runes for Fyreslayer. Or i liked the prayer idea for warchanter too

What would be the point of including spells? The garbage shaman, who is supposed to be the strongest greenskin caster, can only attempt one spell even though at base he already has access to 4 spells. 

[broche]

10 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

What would be the point of including spells? The garbage shaman, who is supposed to be the strongest greenskin caster, can only attempt one spell even though at base he already has access to 4 spells. 

Well he is actually a very good shaman (know 2 uniques spells, 6 life at 5+, +2 to cast and dispel). 

Spell selection adds lot of flexibility to an army. You could take a cheap goblin shaman for your arcane shield/bolt, then your 1-2 Weirnob could also contribute to some buff (they currently only have attack spell) early game. There was some great suggestion of effect already in the thread that could fit the theme: Ironclad like, save agains mortal or why not a mind-razor like spell (imagine Brutes at double damage and rend 2). Just 2-3 good spells could easily push Ironjawz from mid T2 to T1

[Malakree]

48 minutes ago, broche said:

Well he is actually a very good shaman (know 2 uniques spells, 6 life at 5+, +2 to cast and dispel). 

He's bad because of his limited number of spell casts, drawbacks and cost.

He works far better in the other orruk factions because he keeps the only spell that matters, foot of gork, and they can far more easily get the 20 Orruk models.

They really need to make IJ orruks count for 2 towards his buff, remove the self mortal wounds, give him a second spell cast and increase his points. He should probably also get a 5+ ward save instead of his normal save.

Unlike for greenskinz or Bonesplitterz 20 orruks in 10" is a huge restriction, the fact he can kill himself with 2 spells casts is also a ****** joke.

[broche]

Bad is a big word. Maybe slightly overpriced, but again it's relative. Most mage on foot cost between 80 and 140. Wizard are hard to price, because the impact they have on the game is variable base on their spells selection. Also more resistant mage will stick longer on the battlefield so that increase the likelyhood that they can have an impact on the game. 

Among destruction wizard, 120 seem like a fair price. I would argue that fugoid shaman is really cheap at 80 (good resistance, can cast twice once per game). Wurrgog is 140 and cast twice, However Bonesplitter wizard are much efficient because of their spell selection also. For me a spell selection is worth at least 10-20 pts per wizard.

But let switch faction. College arcane cost 100 pts for one cast, no bonus and bad resistance. Weirnob is clearly superior to those, so 120 is not scandalous in that point
of view. But sometime you get really good wizard at 80 (spell weaver or soceress for example) for semingly no good reason.

So again, it come to the point that their pricing template are either pretty bad or not applied uniformly. GW always have been bad at pricing model,
and it has not changed. They need to revise all point for wizard across faction. Probably reduce granularity of cost (right now it's 
either 80-100-120-140, it could easily be 80-90-100-110-120 or even down to 5 pts (95-100-105 and so on). You could then easily adjust price
to include spell known/selection, number of cast, bonus to cast and survivability.

 

[Malakree]

36 minutes ago, broche said:

But let switch faction. College arcane cost 100 pts for one cast, no bonus and bad resistance. Weirnob is clearly superior to those, so 120 is not scandalous in that point of view.

Compare the College Arcane wizard, his spell selection is far more flexible, because you only pick his spell when you deploy him you can pick which ever you need the most for any given battle. Additionally 1 wound and +1 to save doesn't make the weirdnob resistance better, because of the self inflicted mortal wounds. When you then add in the way in which most of the modern armies deal with wizards and you realise they are the same level of tankiness, if anything the weirdnob is worse because of the self inflicted mortal wounds. Then we compare the foot of gork cast value and realise that even his spell casting selection isn't better than the battlemage. Even if you setup your army to have the +2 to cast reliably, something which requires a 450 point investment, Foot is still casting value 8.

So no I would argue that the Battlemage is superior to the Weirdnob because it doesn't have a whole bunch of conditionals on it's warscroll, is way more versatile in it's spells, those spells have reasonable casting values and aren't arbitrarily inflated because of a hard to get +2 to casting value which burns the Weirdnob for d3 mortal wounds when he rolls a double.

Right now the weirdnob isn't worth more than a battlemage, I wouldn't swing it down to 80 points but he's definitely not 120. 

[broche]

they could easily FAQ that the d3 mortal exclude himself.

Anyway i think we agree he is a bit overpriced right now. But i don't think it would be with a 6 spell choice (specially with his potential +2 to cast)

[Zambo]

30 minutes ago, broche said:

they could easily FAQ that the d3 mortal exclude himself.

Anyway i think we agree he is a bit overpriced right now. But i don't think it would be with a 6 spell choice (specially with his potential +2 to cast)

Think this would be a great solution the d3 wounds on himself is ridiculous luckily the guys I play with see that and allow it to be the nearest unit (as originally intended IMO)

An IJ spell lore could really help with some of the problems we face, my suggestions

 

1 mortal wounds protection +5 for a unit 

2 run and charge in same turn 

3 iron clad for a unit 

4 impact hits on charge D3 Mortal Wounds 

know it’s s bit of a wish list but nothing game breaking n would address holes in our armoury 

[broche]

Or the could go like DoK style with army wide clan power style:

Ironsunz: +1 save agains shooting

Bloodtooth: run and charge

Other: 5+ agains mortal

easy to write, direct benefit.

[Vasshpit]

I may be wrong but I swear when IJ first dropped that the Shaman was able to cast two and it was changed like super quick.... 

Regardless, I think that 2 casts would not be game breaking at all without any other adjustments besides a spell lore. 

I do think a similar mechanic to DoK (the stacking buffs) would work with IJ to represent the raw rampaging high Orruks get from the fight. 

This could also apply to the shamans "to cast" as well. 

I'm not a rules buff by any means but just some suggestions. 

[Skabnoze]

I feel at this point that for the next General's Handbook they should create an Ironjawz spell lore and then rewrite his Warscroll entirely.  The shaman seems like the entry in the army most in need of being reworked.  The rest I feel is fine with a points adjustment.  I think they could shake up the army quite a bit by this simple change.

[Imperial]

16 hours ago, Malakree said:

remove the self mortal wounds

It's was error in english warscroll. You can find topic about it

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Imperial said:

It's was error in english warscroll. You can find topic about it

I know, tbh I think inflicting MW on other orruks is just as dumb. 

As I said the +2 is a ballache and questionable as to whether it's worth risking the chance to arcane bolt your army with. The only reason we need it is because his cvs are unreasonably high. Compare foot of gork to curse of years, both are capable of ridiculous damage at the cost a ton of random. One is CV 7 the other is a 10.

Like?

Green puke should be cv6 and foot of gork cv8. They are both arbitrarily inflated by 2 to counter his +2 to cast. We essentially pay for that +2 in three different ways, inflated cvs, self inflicted MW and requirement of 20 orruks in ironjawz.

He is clearly designed as a greenskinz wizard not an IJ wizard.

[Chris Tomlin]

13 hours ago, Zambo said:

Think this would be a great solution the d3 wounds on himself is ridiculous luckily the guys I play with see that and allow it to be the nearest unit (as originally intended IMO)

Dangerous road to go down IMO, where do you draw the line about what was "originally intended"?

For what it's worth, I agree totally that it's a stupid rule and will be FAQ'd at some point (a little surprised it wasn't in the last one if I'm honest). But as it stands the rule is definitely that he does D3 mortal wounds to himself on a double.

If you choose to play that another way (for whatever reason), what other rules will you play differently because you don't like them?

EDIT - Hopefully that comes across as intended. Just read it back and it doesn't sound overly friendly. It's not meant to be like that though  

I also do not believe there are any new Ironjawz models in the works at present and the above comments likely relate to other upcoming Destruction releases, however I do think we will see something one day!

[PlasticCraic]

I'm really not convinced that even with the current wording, he damages himself. I think people see the word "within" and say, aha! It's established that units are within x" of themselves. So he's affected. 

But this is worded differently - it's the closest within 10". In the quick sketch attached, let's say the Shaman is Point A.

Is Point A within the circle?

Yes. 

But what is the closest point to Point A?

I think most people would say Point B, because "closest" is a linear descriptor (TM @Sangfroid) i.e. Point A to Point B. 

What's more - if you put him in base to base with some Ardboyz, they are both precisely 0" away, so you should get to choose which is affected? But I don't even think you need to do that, when you look at the precise wording ?

[PlasticCraic]

Also - just my 2 cents - but I def believe the Shaman is chronically overcosted.

If Order gets the Loremaster for 100 points, and Chaos gets the Gaunt Summoner with 2 spells for 120, the Shaman should be around 90 points. I'd take a Destruction Loremaster over this guy at the same points any day of the week. And par with Gaunty is a bit daft. 

Ideally they would fix up his warscroll with a second cast, but failing that, he needs to come down in points significantly imo. 

[Chris Tomlin]

@PlasticCraic - I guess we could go round and round in your crudely drawn circles!!

However, it's not a conversation we need to be having I'm sure. I'll refer back and mention this being added to the next FAQ as it clearly needed.  

[ledha]

As a regular opponent of Ironjaw, their main weakness, for me, is not their speed (they at least have some ways to handle it), nor bravery (except for brutes), but the lack of punch. With nearly no mortal wound or rend - 2 in the army (except megaboss/mawkrusha), they bounce as soon as something a bit resilient come in their way. Mortal wound on charge for the gore-grunta, or for the brutes (something like one mortal wound on a 6 to wound) would help them a lot

[Planar]

deleted

[Malakree]

@ledha

I've been off on that one before. Personally I view it as a game issue not an IJ issue. There needs to be serious overhauls to the amount of MW output from the worst offenders and limits on save stacking.

My major suggestion on that front is that rend should occur after all other effects with 2+ being the original cap. So rend -1 means you can't have a save better than 3+, -2 caps at 4+ and -3 is 5+. That would go a long way to stopping the stupid 2+ rerolling 1s.

Then as a extention to that all MW on a 6+ are changed to -3 rend on a 6+ so wound rolls are still required.

Lastly any effect which is on an X+ should require the natural roll to be that not after modifiers. So things like bloodletters can't cheese their way up to MW on 3+ and the stormcast heal on save requires a natural roll of a 6 ignoring things like cover or staunch defender.

Those are issues for the health of the game rather than IJ issues tho. They go alongside removing army wide teleportation which isn't specifically costed on a units warscroll.

[BunkhouseBuster]

I used to play with my Weird-nob a lot more back in my early days of playing, but I don't anymore because I just don't find it's worth taking for the spells at all.  And on top of that, I and my opponents never remembered that the Weird-nob is supposed to damage himself/others when rolling doubles.

So take it from a guy who forgot the model's self-destructive rule and still thinks that the Shaman is overpriced.  I would rather have another Warchanter or squad of Gore-gruntas on the table if I had a choice.  My Shaman will pretty much only see large games or special events at this point.