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Updating Ironjawz


Malakree

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To me it seems similar to the fyreslayers alligance abilities just in an Ironjawz style and it being a bit more random, would we keep smashing and bashing and +1 to charge with these abilities or do they go away as well?

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1 minute ago, Hypno said:

To me it seems similar to the fyreslayers alligance abilities just in an Ironjawz style and it being a bit more random, would we keep smashing and bashing and +1 to charge with these abilities or do they go away as well?

Keep those 2 but lose the Mighty Destroyers. Both are reasonably situational in comparison to most allegiance abilities, they are cool and immensely thematic though.

Yeah that definitely ended up having an influence as I was writing it. It's both similar and different, similar because you get a list of different effects you can pick from each turn, different because the choice you get is random rather than free choice, you can get the same one multiple times and it's picked on a unit basis not an army basis. Oh and there's no super overcharge potential to get random -2 rend instead of -1. The reasons I wrote number 6 as a mortal wounds on 6+ to wound is because Fyreslayers have the rend buff and MW on 6+ to hit need to die in a fire, you don't get the diluted number because of failed rolls and there are simply to many +hit buffs around.

To some extent the Fyreslayers (Slayers) and Ironjawz(Black Orcs) have always been two sides of a similar coin, either makes it Ironic or Inevitable that they would hate each others guts, so it's nice that it both mirrors and juxtaposes the Fyreslayers Allegiance abilities! 

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43 minutes ago, Malakree said:

To me those things are distinctly Greenskinz Orruks and not Ironjawz. I think a Weirdnob on Goregrunta would be cool but I just don't like the idea of chariots or bows/Xbows in Ironjawz.

The Ardboyz are already portrayed as being distinctly different from the other Ironjawz, and indeed the Ironjawz look on them as being odd.

They taking fighting "seriously" are more organised, disciplined. Just like the black orcs they originate from. I think it makes a lot of sense for then to use / make more advanced weapons. 

Agreed I don't see the Ironjawz themselves using crossbows, but I could totally see them using throwing weapons.

Grunta Megaboss would be awesome, yeah maybe the chariot is too much tech. Would still look amazing though. Maybe the Ardboyz could make it for him :D

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To some extent I dont want IJ to end up poaching the greenskinz turf. Chariots are a little to civilised and not in the fray enough. Im against MB on ggs because I feel like the MB wouldnt settle for a gg instead of a cabbage. 

Wierdnobs, warchanters and maybe one new type of hero I could totally see on ggs though!

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  • 2 months later...

I’d just like to see Gordrakk come down 80-100pts

Brutes and ArdBoyz come down to 160

Shaman down to 100, magical artefacts for the shaman

Warchanter abilities - +1 to hit or Run & Charge to a unit (aura ability would be nice)

Megaboss - native ironclad ability, re-roll to hit or wound against 4W+ models 

 

 

then id be a happy little Ironjaw :D

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Honestly, looking at the new releases, I think at this point what we need is to replace the mighty destroyers allegiance with an army wide Ironclad (reduce rend by -1) that also gives a mortal wound save equal to the units starting save statistic.

We would still be lacking a bunch of key tools but at least that would make Ironjawz a tanky hard to shift army again with the points we pay on the saves actually meaning something vs the ridiculous MW output of modern armies.

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While I do like the options you presented in the first post (how have I missed this thread for so long?!), I feel that the biggest thing that Ironjawz need is an expansion to the line itself as much as rewriting the warscrolls.

I look at the other armies that have some out since the beginning of AoS, and I see many more kits for the other armies, including the armies using one or two legacy kits.  Let's just take a look at the armies that have been released with an army book AND also received new models.

  • Ironjawz - 3 unit kits (1 legacy kit) to make 3 units with different weapons options, 4 characters
  • Daughters of Khaine - 5 unit kits (3 legacy) to make like 12 different Warscrolls, new named hero kit
  • Khrardron Overlords - 3 units, 3 boats, 4 characters, 1 named hero (all new to AoS)
  • Sylvaneth - 4 units across 3 kits (1 legacy), 2 new named heroes, 1 legacy monster kit, new plastic character, old Finecast character
  • Disciples of Tzeentch, Blades of Khorne, and Maggotkin of Nurgle - lots of new kits, lots of old kits
  • Stormcast - a bunch of kits
  • Any other Destruction army - no new kits aside from Ironjawz and Harbinger.

Looking at the variety available to the other armies that had releases, I feel like Ironjawz are missing out a bit.  Without considering the rules or gameplay options, I feel like there should have been another kit or two available for Ironjawz at some point along the line.

Now, as to what I would think Ironjawz would need as a new kit, I would suggest a ranged unit for obvious reasons: the army lacks any meaningful ranged attacks.  And personally, I would go a unit of Brute-size Orruks that throw big, roughly shaped javelins and can function as a mobile artillery piece.  Give them an option to carry either a shield or an extra melee weapon, and a rule that helps them support nearby allied units.  Think a unit of Greek Peltasts with lots of armor on, or a heavy skirmisher unit, if you will ;).  And as a bonus, make the kit compatible with the current Brute kit for more conversion and kitbash opportunities!

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I think if GW could nail the right cost for units when they publish, that would solve many issue. But for some reason they can't (or maybe they want new army to be better).

There is no bad army/ability. There is bad cost. 

Just take Bonesplitterz and Fyreslayer for example. In 2016 bonesplitterz where undercosted, and Fyreslayer where overcosted. I guess Fyreslayer were not selling, so in GH2017, fyreslayer became undercosted (and got new allegiance abilities) and bonesplitterz slightly overcosted (mostly their character).

I think Ironjawz are ok right now. They are close to competitive, probably with a new book with some new spells and new batallion they would do fine.

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I also wouldn't be surprised to see some form of scenery kit of some sorts, like a Waagghh banner/totem, that buffs in different ways.

I'd love some kinda scout ambush unit/hero like Gutrot Sprume or Vanguard Hunters.

Seems the general outlook is 50/50 on ranged Ironjawz  but I'd  love some and makes sense to me.

I think most agree on a Megaboss on Gore Grunts char/unit

Weirdnob tower or Weirdboyz chaff buffing unit for Weirdnobz.

 

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5 hours ago, broche said:

I think if GW could nail the right cost for units when they publish, that would solve many issue. But for some reason they can't (or maybe they want new army to be better).

There is no bad army/ability. There is bad cost. 

Just take Bonesplitterz and Fyreslayer for example. In 2016 bonesplitterz where undercosted, and Fyreslayer where overcosted. I guess Fyreslayer were not selling, so in GH2017, fyreslayer became undercosted (and got new allegiance abilities) and bonesplitterz slightly overcosted (mostly their character).

I think Ironjawz are ok right now. They are close to competitive, probably with a new book with some new spells and new batallion they would do fine.

No...IJ are definitely not even close to an okay category.

At a minimum...minimum they need a 20%-30% points reduction across the board. Except the Warchanter. He is fine for what he does.

Ardboys are just plain bad. They are in this strange battleline category of not being tanky enough for their cost or not putting out the damage of their cost. They are in a strange hybrid area...not as tanky as Chaos Warriors or Vulkites. Not as killy as Tzaangors. Points need to drop to 100 or a massive scroll rework.

The Shaman...this guy just makes me angry. 120pts for mystic shield? Im guessing GW costed him based on wounds alone or given he has 2 unique spells. He needs a massive rework as well or points drop to 80 for a mystic shield spammer.

Megaboss on foot needs to be a lot faster.

MBoMK needs a points drop badly now. All destruction monsters are too overcosted. Morathi is only 480pts btw...

Gore-Gruntas have always been lackluster no matter what. They need a further points drop

Brutes are fine warscroll wise but still need a points drop to 140-160.

One of the main issues is still the lack of any playstyle other then Ironfist. IJ are like a ****** version of Fyreslayer and Khorne right now. The entire faction needs a overhaul

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2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Ardboys are just plain bad. They are in this strange battleline category of not being tanky enough for their cost or not putting out the damage of their cost. They are in a strange hybrid area...not as tanky as Chaos Warriors or Vulkites. Not as killy as Tzaangors. Points need to drop to 100 or a massive scroll rework.

Wow, you look pretty frustrated to think Arboys should cost 100 pts, it's 20 life at 4+. Tzaangors benefit a lot from good synergie from tzeench allegiance and from scaling, cause base they are close to arboys. In fact 10 ardboys might be better than 10 tzaangors. I think problem with Arboyz is that they don't get massive regiment bonus like other units, but 10 vs 10 they are the right price. 

Gruntas at 140 are pretty good, and brutes at 180 might be a bit expensive, but again it's all relative. Problem is that GW need like 3-4 guess before getting the price right. They should have like point guideline based on units efficiency, but they just seem to look in the sky and pull a point cost out of a hat. The should just had hired the guys that did SDK and do some testing before printing point and you wouldn't get those kind of miscost across army.

Your argument seem to be "oh fyreslayer, tzeench and daugher of khaine have undercost units so all ironjawz should drop 80-100 pts". Not very scientific. I think they need to work on their point grid and follow it when they release. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

No...IJ are definitely not even close to an okay category.

At a minimum...minimum they need a 20%-30% points reduction across the board. Except the Warchanter. He is fine for what he does.

Ardboys are just plain bad. They are in this strange battleline category of not being tanky enough for their cost or not putting out the damage of their cost. They are in a strange hybrid area...not as tanky as Chaos Warriors or Vulkites. Not as killy as Tzaangors. Points need to drop to 100 or a massive scroll rework.

The Shaman...this guy just makes me angry. 120pts for mystic shield? Im guessing GW costed him based on wounds alone or given he has 2 unique spells. He needs a massive rework as well or points drop to 80 for a mystic shield spammer.

Megaboss on foot needs to be a lot faster.

MBoMK needs a points drop badly now. All destruction monsters are too overcosted. Morathi is only 480pts btw...

Gore-Gruntas have always been lackluster no matter what. They need a further points drop

Brutes are fine warscroll wise but still need a points drop to 140-160.

One of the main issues is still the lack of any playstyle other then Ironfist. IJ are like a ****** version of Fyreslayer and Khorne right now. The entire faction needs a overhaul

 

2 minutes ago, broche said:

Wow, you look pretty frustrated to think Arboys should cost 100 pts, it's 20 life at 4+. Tzaangors benefit a lot from good synergie from tzeench allegiance and from scaling, cause base they are close to arboys. In fact 10 ardboys might be better than 10 tzaangors. I think problem with Arboyz is that they don't get massive regiment bonus like other units, but 10 vs 10 they are the right price. 

Gruntas at 140 are pretty good, and brutes at 180 might be a bit expensive, but again it's all relative. Problem is that GW need like 3-4 guess before getting the price right. They should have like point guideline based on units efficiency, but they just seem to look in the sky and pull a point cost out of a hat. The should just had hired the guys that did SDK and do some testing before printing point and you wouldn't get those kind of miscost across army.

Your argument seem to be "oh fyreslayer, tzeench and daugher of khaine have undercost units so all ironjawz should drop 80-100 pts". Not very scientific. I think they need to work on their point grid and follow it when they release. 

 

 

To follow these posts, I think we all can agree the Ironjawz could still use some point adjusting. Wierdnob should be 100 points for what he does, or at the very least rework his spells. Everything spell in today's meta is a 4-8. Foot of Gork is a 10 (8 if you have 20 boyz around you), but considering the spell is randomized in damage potential, that needs to come down, especially when you consider Tzeentch spells that are much cheaper that do far more damage. Maw Krusha can afford to come down, but not by much. If the Great Unclean One is priced around 360 or something, then the Maw Krusha should be something similar to that, maybe 360-420. 

Brutes and Ardboyz imo are fair for 180. 5 Brutes can eliminate units and heroes by themselves, while Ardboyz (if supported) can become a daunting horde for your enemy to consider fighting. 

The real issue with Ironjawz imo is synergy. We only have a few units in the army and very little spells or abilities that boost their capabilities. Our battalions need serious reworking because only one or two are usable competitively and that's even if they're taken because they're priced too high. You're better off taking more Orcs for the battalion price. Other than the megaboss' command trait and Brute bonus, the warchanter's frenzy of violence, and a handful of allegiance traits/abilities, our units are simply on their own. WAAAGH! and Frenzy of violence also need to change so they can benefit our troops for a full turn rather than at the end of our turn. That would greatly help our efficiency. To fix this, either give our heroes abilities that make our boyz fight or stay in the battle longer. Perhaps a new hero, a banner boy, or scenery, like a defaced totem, that can boost bravery or our movement

In terms of the tabletop, variation is the other issue for our army. We are limited in what we can do compared to other armies. Our boyz could do with a new kit or two, perhaps some kind of ranged support or something that dishes out mortal wounds. It could be heavy ballista wielding lads like the Vanguard Raptors, or choppa lobbing boyz (perhaps with rend -2!?), or even an orruk in a giant spiked ball rolling around the battlefield running over enemies and causing mortal wounds. I'd like to see something new to freshen up out line

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8 minutes ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

In terms of the tabletop, variation is the other issue for our army. We are limited in what we can do compared to other armies. Our boyz could do with a new kit or two, perhaps some kind of ranged support or something that dishes out mortal wounds. It could be heavy ballista wielding lads like the Vanguard Raptors, or choppa lobbing boyz (perhaps with rend -2!?), or even an orruk in a giant spiked ball rolling around the battlefield running over enemies and causing mortal wounds. I'd like to see something new to freshen up out line

Maybe it would be too much of an outlier in terms of IJ, but I'd love a more geared out troggoth like LOTR trolls.
 

Spoiler

 

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99121466002_MordorTrollIsengardTrollNEW0

99021487007_GundabadTrollsBundle01.jpg

 

 

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I would take the Tzaangor warscroll over the Ardboyz one in a heartbeat, especially with all the options Tzeentch have to make them more durable.  

If Tzaangors are 180 / 450 then Ardboyz should be 160 / 390 maximum.  The Tzaangors are streets ahead imo.

It's very frustrating that there was no Destruction FAQ in the recent release.  How hard would it have been to clear up the queries over Weirdnob Shaman's self-harm and the Ardboyz mortal wound save?  It's not like those questions haven't been asked many, many times by now.  

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I just thought of something that would give Destruction and Ironjawz the equivalent of a Celestial Hurricanum

Think of the Mad Max Fury Road Guitar Guy and his giant truck with the drummers in the back. Now imagine the Warchanter with all of that (minus the flaming guitar) on a big podium playing giant drums to rouse the forces of destruction into battle and carried into battle by a chariot, ardboyz or brutes underneath. The effects could be a +1 to hit bonus for all DESTRUCTION units within 18 inches of the Warchanter's Podium. It could also allow units to reroll failed, let units charge even if they ran, or possibly add +1 to their movement. Good synergy across the allegiance and helps Ironjawz succeed in what they do best

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I think just with 6 unique spells in a battletome it would already make them lots better, something like

1. Ironclad like spell to a units or in a small bubble

2. a reroll save to a units or reroll save of 1 in a bubble

3. a save agains mortal wound

4-6. choice of spell that does mortal wound

Also a selection of magical artefact (extra dispel range on weirnob would be excellent). The 120 pts for weirnob would seem much more justified. 

 

7 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

I would take the Tzaangor warscroll over the Ardboyz one in a heartbeat, especially with all the options Tzeentch have to make them more durable.  If Tzaangors are 180 / 450 then Ardboyz should be 160 / 390 maximum.  The Tzaangors are streets ahead imo.

They should at least not get massive regiment discount (cause they scale really good). If you take just 10 and ignore the fact that tzeench have special spell, 10 ardboys might not be much better than 10 tzaangor (hit a bit less and slower but better save and bravery), but 8 ardboys are definitly better than 8 tzaangors.

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Ironjawz are rally suffering at the movement as has been said, I am taking them to a tournament in 2 weeks time and I was discussing with @Chris Tomlin that unless there is a change to the rules, points or scrolls themselves (GHB2018 is probably 5 months away) I can’t see me playing with them again outside of the odd run out at the club.  Which is sad for me as it the 2 year anniversary on the 30th of April of their release and already when I sit and make army lists It used to be one or two lists I knew I couldn’t deal with without stupendous luck now it feels closer to 10. Even allies can paper up the cracks (I was due to face Nagash and was considering 3 spear chukkas then I realised the could do maybbe 6 wounds on average to him then next turn he heals most of that back....) 

One of the attractions of ironjawz playstyle is the fact tha units can act independently it’s nice to have 5 Brutes that can be a nightmare for an opponent wihout 3 buffs and 2 characters nearby however the releases since the Fyreslayers points changes have meant imo that we are so far behind “Competative” armies now that you shouldn’t really be taking ironjawz if you want to do well. 

They probably need a significant rewrite to make them Competative including new options however here are a few simple changes that could be FAQ tomorrow and it would help them as a well as make the game more fun for us and have a better chance agaisnt some armies (I dont mind fearing 3 or 4 other armies but 10 is too many) 

1) Mighty Destroyers allow choice of action not dependent on distance to enemy (already said this before) AND pile in and attack + new 4th option retreat from combat and then able to still charge again later in the turn. 

2) +1 to charge AND army wide run and charge (not shoot) 

3) army wide armour save increased by 1 (excluding heroes) 

4) +1 wound characteristic to all Brutes, Megabosses (including Mawkrusha) and Goregruntas 

5) Goregruntas (pigs attacks) d3 on the charge, Goregruntas jagged Hakkas damage 2 on the charge 

6) Megaboss on foot 12” bubble reroll 1s for brutes

7) waaagh, Mighty waagh and frenzy of violence lasts till next hero phase

8) Weirdnob shaman can cast 2 spells 

 

this wouldnt make us number 1 but would help us massively and in real terms isn’t too difficult to faq imo.

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Hey,

Interesting thread guys, a lot of (mostly) well thought out wishlisting going on. Obviously some differences in opinions about the sort of units people feel would be thematic to add to the army but tbh I think any addition would be welcomed, particularly anything that would diversify the army without resorting to allies.

I am also of the opinion that the existing scrolls and allegiance stuff needs a bit of an overhaul to better keep up with the current Battletomes. The GHB 2017 gave us some great new abilities and toys to play with but in giving with that one hand, it also took away our movement with the other. Since the new Handbook was released we haven't really seen much by way of good Ironjawz results. I think mine at Facehammer and the lad who did well at a GW one are the only notable ones, though admittedly both of them were off highly favourable draws, which all armies need, but I kinda feel it almost matters more to us. As @Sangfroid said there are ever increasingly a greater number of bad or unflavoured matchups for us. It's a problem. You only need to look at the number of Ironjawz players at events corroborate this. This is a big shame as I am firmly of the opinion that the Ironjawz model range (bar the Ardboys) is right up there with the best GW produce.

2016 / early 2017 was a glorious year for me personally. Not necessarily in terms of results, more the stride I got into with the army and becoming The Megaboss! I was playing loads and really gained an understanding of all the intricacies that made the army a match for most opponents (it's really not a case of push it all forwards!). I'm sure @Sangfroid would feel the same and I'd like to think that come the end of the run we perhaps made one or two people take a second look at Ironjawz and not instantly dismiss or underestimate them.

Now I have to say that post GHB 2017, for various reasons, I simply have not been able to play enough games to really comment all that much, but reading all the new Battletomes certainly gives me some level of theoryhammer knowledge. Clearly it doesn't take a genius to surmise that it's unlikely we'd stack up favourably vs some of them. I think the Nurgle Rotbringers book was the one that really made me think this way, as not only are they clearly strong but they also do what we like to do and let's be honest, they do it better!

I am now finally coming into a position in 2018 where I can hopefully start playing regularly, both at club as well as attending a few Tournaments this year. The first event will be one the Cheltenham Warchiefs are running in a couple of weeks and I will certainly be running the Ironjawz for that (big grudge match with @Sangfroid). I'm even painting up some new stuff at the moment. But anyway, like @Sangfroid I do think this will be my last Waaagh for a little while, so I shall be embracing the Megaboss persona fully!!

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but feels good to get down some thoughts. Please don't read this as me dropping the Ironjawz due to a perceived power drop or anything like that. I was never playing them for their strength at the table! Despite not playing greenskins properly before AoS, I've really taken to the army and it will remain "my" army for the game even if I choose to play something else for a little bit :) 

Chris

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Before GH 2017 I initiated a general feedback topic here which was then send to GW. It was definitely taken into consideration and we saw many or most of the things suggested happen.

I am saying this because I think that this topic will be taken into consideration as well. I personally suggest, as last time, to update the first post by you, @Malakree when some kind of results are achieved. If we send the thing to GW then they will see everything in one list.

Other than that, I think I don't have much to add. Problems are obvious.

I also want to emphasize my strong interest in crossbow Ardboyz. They could even use the old Ruglund's models.

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2 hours ago, Anaticula said:

I also want to emphasize my strong interest in crossbow Ardboyz. They could even use the old Ruglund's models.

I just feel like it would be a Greenskinz rather than Ironjawz. That said how about goregrunta mounted brutes with javelins/spears.

3 GG's in the squad for 140 points, a ranged attack at 3+/3+/-2/d3 with a 14" range. Retreat and shoot, when they complete a charge make a free shooting attack, if there are no models left in 3" after the shots finish make another charge (same as the MK!)

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Glad to hear you're getting back in the saddle @Chris Tomlin

Can I ask what you and @Sangfroid are both looking at running, or is it a secret project?  Kieran are you focussing in on the Stormcast for a while?  Just interested to know :D

Honestly what you both have done for Ironjawz has been amazing.  There was one episode of The Black Sun in particular that I remember where Kieran was a guest on the show and you were reviewing the year, and both preparing for Masters.  @Sangfroid you were talking about the old batallion you used to run in the early days with the Gargant, it kinda stuck in my mind because it was around Christmas 2016 and the Ironjawz big box had just come out with a Gargant in it (I was salty at the time that I couldn't use it in Matched Play :P).

I was over in the UK visiting at the time and I have really clear memories of listening to some of it on the plane, then again when I was out running, so it must have been a long 'un!  I might go back and have another listen actually, I know it's daft but it really reminds me of that holiday (what a sad git!).

I don't think anyone could blame either of you for changing it up a bit, you've both been great flagbearers for Destruction for so long.  Also very good to hear that this is not the end!  Hopefully you'll still be posting on here even though you're branching out for a while.

PS The Black Sun also introduced me to Parkway Drive and Steel Panther, cheers for that! B|

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PS there has been some chat about how good it would be for Destruction to get a Legions of Nagash style reboot, which I also would love to see.  Just putting it out there but that could be part of any potential new Ironjawz book. 

"Gordrakk's Mighty Waagh!" featuring the Ironjawz front and centre, plus an update for the micro factions that won't realistically get their own book or even allegiance abilities (Troggoths, Aleguzzler Gargants, etc).  I personally would include Greenzkinz and Gitmob in there too, use this as the vehicle to give them their stuff.  

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1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

PS there has been some chat about how good it would be for Destruction to get a Legions of Nagash style reboot, which I also would love to see.  Just putting it out there but that could be part of any potential new Ironjawz book. 

"Gordrakk's Mighty Waagh!" featuring the Ironjawz front and centre, plus an update for the micro factions that won't realistically get their own book or even allegiance abilities (Troggoths, Aleguzzler Gargants, etc).  I personally would include Greenzkinz and Gitmob in there too, use this as the vehicle to give them their stuff.  

I think if Ironjawz got lumped into a 'Legions of Destruction' style book it'd basically mean GW don't have the creativity or motivation to expand the faction further, which I somehow doubt would be the case for the posterboys of Destruction. It's why everytime I raise such a concept, it's always been the 'left over' races of Destruction, those that are unlikely to see further updates (Greenskinz, Gitmob, Troggoths, Gargants) rather than an all encompassing Orruks and Grots style battletome.

 

That being said for Ironjawz, my personal opinion (as someone who doesn't play them), is that they suffer from A) Being one of the first factions to be released B) A lack of flexibility in units available to them which culminates in C) A fairly straight forward playstyle.

A nice selection of units which makes the army interesting to build, but in terms of their actual tactical toolbox, they don't have a lot of options other than run forwards to smash up the enemy. Maybe if the battalions come back down they'll have some interesting options to play around with.

 

If they did an Ironjawz MK2, I'm sure a lot of the stuff in this thread would be taken into account in terms of fixing abilities and the like. They're really from an older era (once per game abilities, random command abilities, only last during your turn abilities, etc). I also have no doubt you'd probably see various Ironjawz clanz allegiance ability add-ons similar to Daughters Cults and Kharadron Skyports. You know, probably something simple like Yellow ones are braver/tougher, red ones go faster, blue ones are sneakier, etc.

I think that's where the real fix has to come from. You make more interesting allegiance abilities and options within the faction. I don't actually think they really need ranged support, if anything I think Legions of Nagash is proving that an army can do pretty well with very minimal ranged support. But if say, you could add on to your allegiance ability (3 units can be deployed off table and come on during your movement phase, 6" from a board edge and 9" from the enemy because you took the Blues ones or something), then suddenly you've got more options in your toolbox about how you can dictate the game.

While it's possible that decreasing the points on some of the battalions might fulfil this in the short term, I think the rest of the solution is only really fixed in a new battletome. Games Workshop don't seem interested in changing warscrolls once they're in print (Other than Grundstok Thunderers).

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