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So I don't believe anyone who looks at the Ironjawz Warscrolls or Battletome would disagree that they are showing their age. This is thoughts on how to update them with both Quality Of Life changes, Bringing them in line with Modern Battletomes (Modernising) and just random thoughts which would allow for greater diversity of lists. 

With this in mind I'm going to go through and list what I see as issues within the faction. I invite you to get some cheese and biscuits to enjoy with this fine whine or maybe even contribute with your own favourite vintages yourself. This thread is to promote discussion, ideas and other weird things, feel free to call me an idiot, I'd do the same!

Problems and Issues - (Otherwise known as WAAAGH why is Gordrakk so suck)

Units

  • Gordrakk - To expensive and it's questionable whether he is better than a normal MBoMK
  • Megaboss on Mawkrusha (MBoMK Henceforth known as the Cabbage)  - Strength from Victory is poorly worded
  • Orruk Megaboss (Henceforth known as the Footboss) - Expensive, slow, mediocre ability, pays for a command ability you can never use
  • Warchanter - Frenzy of Violence(Fov) is 1 unit for next combat phase only, probably undercosted, FoV stacking is a thing.
  • Weirdnob - Expensive, Power of the Waagh! is badly worded, pays for Greenpuke which is bad, 120 points for 1 spell, needs 20 nearby orruks in ****** Ironjawz (???)
  • Goregruntas - Gore-Grunta Charge is super poorly worded and almost never goes off, no -2 Rend option is awful, Jagged Gore-Hacka is ******
  • Brutes Bravery 6, slow
  • Ardboyz - Probably Overcosted, Slow, Orruk-forged Shields is ambiguous

Battalions

  • Brutefist Overcosted, contradicts the rest of the ironjawz kit (Needs MSU), ability is limited range, situational and bad even if it goes off
  • Gorefist - Probably overpowered, requires alphastrike (first turn)
  • Ardfist - reliant on keeping WC alive, doesn't do anything in matched play, to expensive, still doesn't make you want to use 3 units of Ardboyz
  • Weirdfist - Random, to expensive, vulnerable to hero sniping, overpowered if it ever works.
  • Ironfist Overpowered, required to fix Brute/Ardboy mobility issues, ends the moment Bigboss is slain.
  • Bloodtoofs - Requires maxed Ironfist
  • Ironsunz - Bonus can randomly not happen, requires maxed Ironfist, overcosted next to the Bloodtoofs

Allegiance Fings an Stuff

  • Mighty Destroyers - Far to random, normally does nothing, is overly restrictive, can potentially be overpowered as all hell if you get that 1/72 to grab the 18" of free movement on one unit.
  • Ironclad Is the only option, seriously everything else might as well say "makes your general sparkle" for how irrelevant it is next to this.
  • Hulking Muscle-bound Brute - Doesn't affect the Cabbages attacks making it bad.
  • Live to Fight - Doesn't affect the Cabbages attacks making it bad.
  • The Golden Toof - Range is to short

So this is a none exhaustive list which is basically everything I could think to cry (WAAAAGH) over. I'll now go into the three areas I said I would and try to cover everything I just listed.

Fixing Wording

One of the big areas in which Ironjawz show their age is the ambiguous wording of so many of their abilities. This section is basically going over those in order to make them clearer and not have bizarre interactions with current FAQ's. Most of these are neither buffs or nerfs, they are just solving things which have occurred due to the way the game has evolved since the Ironjawz were released.

Cabbage - Strength from Victory
The current wording of this ability actually makes it unclear as to who or when it's triggered. To summarize, because all damage resolves at once and technically your opponent picks how wounds are distributed he can, by assigning the "killing blow" to one of the Mawkrushas attacks, stop this from ever triggering. You could kill 100 heroes in a game with it's current wording and this buff would never go off.
 

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Change the wording of Strength from Victory to

  • Strength from Victory: The more fights a Megaboss wins, the stronger they become. When this model makes an attack or uses an ability which slays an enemy Hero, add 1 to their Wounds characteristic and the Attacks characteristic of their Boss Gore-hacka or Choppa.

This removes all ambiguity with the ability. It is a minor nerf in that the +1 attack cannot be assigned to the Rip-tooth Fist, however it's also a minor buff in that it triggers off any attack, including the Mighty Fists, Bladed Tail and Innard-bursting Bellow in addition to also being able to trigger off the mortal wounds from Destructive Bulk

Weirdnob Shaman - Power of the Waaagh!
This has become an issue because of the FAQ which says a model is always in range of itself, as a result the model is always it's own closest model, hence the mortal wounds from this ability are always applied to the shaman.

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So apparently the change I'm about to suggest is actually how the ability is written in some of the none english battletomes. Sadly, since I don't speak them, I can't confirm this. However this clears up any questions surrounding it.

  • Power of the Waaagh!: If there are 10 or more other Orruk models within 10" of this model then add 1 to any casting or unbinding rolls this model makes. However, if you roll a double for a casting or unbinding roll while receiving this bonus then an Orruk model of your choice, other than the Weirdnob Shaman, within 10" takes a mortal wound. Add 2 to the roll instead if there are 20 or more Orruk models within 10" and inflict D3 mortal wounds on a double.

This is a buff in a couple of different ways. Firstly the mortal wounds are only inflicted if you are receiving the +1/+2, in addition it's reduced to only 1 mortal wound for the +1 bonus. Secondly you now get to pick the unit/model the mortal wounds are inflicted on, these are QoL changes rolled into the wording update. Lastly, in an edge situation, the mortal wounds are inflicted on an Orruk of your choice within range, this means that against an enemy who is fielding Orruks themselves you could actually offload the mortal wounds onto your opponents units. While it is a pretty edge case this could be changed by instead saying (...then n Friendly Orruk model of your choice...).

Gore-Gruntas - Gore-grunta Charge 
This ability has a couple of different issues in it. Firstly is that it just measures to the closest enemy unit, whether or not you charge that unit, whether or not you CAN charge that unit. This makes it incredibly easy to disable. Additionally when it DOES trigger it doesn't actually specify when or how long the D3 damage lasts for. Theoretically getting a single charge which is more than 8" away from the opponent makes them deal D3 damage for the rest of the game. Obviously this isn't intended but RAW (rules as written) don't ever remove the bonus once it's gained.

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Change the wording of Gore-grunta Charge to

  • Gore-grunta Charge: Even by the destructive.........When you declare a charge with a unit of Gore-gruntas and roll an 8 or more (after bonuses) the damage of the gruntas' Fanged Maw and Hooves attacks is increased to d3 damage in the following combat phase.

Again this is a QoL buff, in that it just requires you to roll 8+ rather than be more than 8" away. This could equally be "and move more than 8" in the subsequent charge move". The fact all Ironjawz abilities say in the following combat phase is one of my pet peeves but it is justified in this case.

Ardboys - Orruk-forged Shields
Yet another ambiguous rule. This is due to the specifics of the mortal wounds wording in the general rules which mean that technically they are "allocated" as normal wounds which means that the shields also get a 6++ against mortal wounds as well as normal wounds. In every game or tournament I have ever played this interpretation of the rules has been upheld, it is questionable though.

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Change the wording of Orruk-forged Shields to

  • Orruk-forged Shields: When a wound or mortal wound is allocated to a model with an Orruk-forged Shield roll a dice. On the roll of a 6 this wound is ignored.

Makes it real clear.

Quality of Life Changes (QoL)

So the first few Quality of Life changes are actually listed above in the Gore-grunta Charge and Weirdnob abilities. Both of these are hyper sensitive to positioning and other very minor factors to produce some horrible effects. The fact the mortal wounds on a double triggers irrelevant of having the buff is huge detriment to an already expensive character, being unable to decide which of the units near him receives those wounds is likewise very fiddly for some potentially devastating negative outcomes.

The first of the QoL changes is both a buff and has huge effects across the army as a whole.

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  • Bravery of Brutes increased to 7.

As it stands at the moment every casualty is potentially another fleeing, a fleeing Brute is 36 points down the pan, due to the cost of the unit as a whole combined with the relative number of wounds and small unit sizes this necessitates the use of inspiring presence on the off chance they will take a casualty. When you consider how integral the Waaagh! is both lore and flavour of all Orruks, then look at the points tax we pay on the Cabbage and Footboss warscrolls for that ability it really brings into focus just how much this change does for the army as a whole. I cannot overstate how much this change is needed.

For the next Combat Phase

My number one issue with Ironjawz as an army. For some messed up reason our buffs, which aren't hugely out of wack, are the next combat phase only. Compare the Lord Castellant to the Warchanter for a stunning example of this. The Lord Castellant provides a buff which is not only significantly better but lasts until the end of the next hero phase. Points wise Lord Castellant is 100 points vs the Warchanters 80 points however his attacks, move and save are all strictly better. Another amazing comparison is all the different forms of Tzaangor which get a +1 to hit for just being 9" away from the shaman, a character who flies, unbinds and poops mortal wounds also just randomly provides your nearby units with a +1 to hit whenever.

This is such a crippling difference it's unreal.

The two big criminals for this in the Ironjawz army are the various "Waaagh!" abilities and Frenzy of Violence. Changing these to last till the next hero phase is both a Quality of Life and a modernisation change both rolled into one, modern armies just aren't released with "for the next combat phase". This then leads into three potential changes which will make as much of a difference as the Bravery increase of Brutes.

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Alterations to the Waaagh! the Mighty Waaagh! the Big Waaagh! (Brawl Battalion) and Voice of Gork (Gordrakk)

  • Big Waaagh! and Voice of Gork now provide their bonuses to attacks until your next hero phase rather than just the "following combat phase".
  • Waaagh! and Mighty Waaagh! changed to read
    At the start of each combat phase, until your next hero phase, roll a d6.....make 1 extra attack with each of their melee weapons in that combat phase.
Quote

There are two potential changes to the Warchanter both of which deal with the issue at hand. My preferred is option 2 as it solves a few issues at once while adding interesting choices for both players.

  • Option 1: Frenzy of Violence: Pick one Ironjawz unit that is within........You can add 1 to all the hit rolls made for that unit until your next hero phase.
  • Option 2: Frenzy of Violence: You can add 1 to all hit rolls made by an Ironjawz unit which is within 10" of an Orruk Warchanter when they make their attacks.

The reason I have a preference for the second Option 2 is because it turns it into a Persistent Totem effect which affects all your nearby units. However it only checks when their attacks are made meaning if he is killed the buff is lost. Additionally it stops the multi-buffing from several different warchanters, having 2 on top of each other is still only +1. As such it is both a nice buff and a sensible nerf rolled into one.

As an extension to the QoL featured here there are also a couple of extra changes to the Warchanters warscroll which bring it more in line with the Lord-Castellant.

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  • Gorkstikk and Morkstikk profile changed to be 4+/3+/-1/1 
  • Warchanter's Beat: Each time you make a hit roll of 7+

This is a a +1 to to Wound and improves the rend to -1. Both suitably fitting for an Ironjawz hero. The hit reduction and 7+ are to account for his own +1 from Frenzy of Violence which he now always benefits from. As a result both of these are "fixes" with a very tiny nerf attached rather than outright nerfs. Combined with the +1 to wound and improved rend characteristic you have a minor buff to the warchanter. All of the buffs together probably justify a slight points cost increase to the Warchanter.

Bloodtoofs and Ironsunz

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  • The Ironfists in these two battalions are no longer required to contain 5 units.
  • Dakkbad's Cunning: Now always provides the -1 to hit for enemy units during the first battleround.

The first change is a recognition of the 280/300 point tax we are already paying to get either of these Mega-Battalions. The second is removing the random and ensuring that the Ironsunz actually competes with the Bloodtoofs by removing the random element.

General Stuff

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So it's hard to know where these go, generally they are QoL changes but also double as buffs. There are a few nerfs, mostly this is just a clean place to deal with them before I go full Weirdnob and start with the crazy babbling portion of the post.

  • Warchanter increased to 100 points.
    This assumes that the attack statistics are improved, as suggested, and his Frenzy of Violence is made a persistent Totem effect for all Ironjawz within 10". As I said above the changes justify a points increase and this is that.
  • Ironclad - Removed 
    Gone but not forgotten (!!). This command trait is just to good, nothing else competes. As an army we are hyper dependent on keeping our general alive and since it's normally a Cabbage at 2k it also doubles as keeping our biggest hardest hitting monster alive. While this is a thing the other options are meaningless.
  • Hulking Muscle-bound Brute - Improved to "You can reroll all failed wound rolls made by your general in the combat phase"
    This is a minor increase which makes it more attractive against the army buff options. As it doesn't effect the Cabbage attacks it's not retardedly overpowered and acts as a nice potential buff to the Footboss in smaller games.
  • Live to Fight - Changed to "Whenever your general rolls a 6 or more to hit they may immediately make an additional attack with the same weapon if they charged in the same turn.
    A thematic change more than anything else. Again a slightly different option for a combat orientated boss which also benefits from +hit modifiers. Once again, important that the Cabbages attacks don't get this.
  • The Golden Toof - Range increased to 12" from 6"
    Pretty self explanatory here.

The Final Note - An Olive Branch to Destruction

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  • Ardboys - Now Battleline without Ironjawz Allegiance
    This change is there to allow none Ironjawz armies to field a unit of Ardboys as one of their battlelines. Black Orcs were an integral part of the old Orcs and Goblins, this lets you recapture some of that feeling in a Grand Alliance army. Largely irrelevant to the competitive scene, since GA:Destruction isn't a thing, and there because atm you would never take ardboys outside of an Ironjawz army. The Elite Battleline of Orruk armies.

 

The Maddness of Mork
(or all those crazy Ideas I just really desperately want)

Preface

So this section is going to be less about the obvious things, which I've dealt with above, and much more throwing ideas out there over buffs, improvements, changes which alter and affect the remaining problems while trying to stick within the Theme and Flavour of the Ironjawz. I'll try to be logical in how I present it and save the most outright mushroom fuelled visions for last.

PHASE 1 - Updating the unused areas of Ironjawz

This is not the full list of what should go here, it is instead the parts of which could still be considered "sane". 

Gordrakk - The Big Boss himself. Ardest of the Ard, Fightiest of the Fight, Most Expensive of the Unplayable stuff.

  • New Ability - Fist of Gork 
    Gordrakk is the Undisputed Megaboss of all Ironjawz, when he calls forth a Great Waaagh! Megabosses and Warclans alike band together in a tide of unstoppable Carnage. As a Result Gordrakk can use his Command Ability even if he is not the General, instead of your General. In addition he knows the Mighty Waaagh! Command Ability from the Megaboss on Mawkrusha Warscroll.
  • Strength from Victory - Updated
    Whenever Gordrakk (or Bigteef)  makes an attack or uses which slays an enemy Hero, add one to his wound characteristic and the attacks characteristic of both Smasha and Kunnin'. In addition he counts as having suffered one less wound when consulting the Damage Table for his movement, Mighty fists or Destructive Bulk. This effect lasts until the end of the game and stacks.
  • Save Improved to 2+
    To keep him on par with the Cabbage save improvement below.
  • Minor Points Cost decrease - 560
    This still makes him 100 points more expensive than a standard Cabbage, however with the improved version of Strength from Victory and the new Fist of Gork rule he is now not only strictly better than a normal Cabbage but also fits well alongside one. 

Cabbage

  • Save Improved to 2+
    This is partially as compensation for the loss of Ironclad and a slight increase in his survivability. The Ironjawz equivilent to the Sigmarite Thundershield of the Stardrake.

Footboss

  • Waaagh! - Removed
    With the introduction of "Prophet of the Waaagh!" as a Command Trait this just needlessly increases the points of the Footboss. This is doubly true since he is generally not used in any larger game and in smaller games is more likely to throw Inspiring Presence than actually use his Waaagh! This just cleans up his warscroll.
  • Go on Ladz, Get Stuck In! - Redesigned
    Any Orruk unit within 10" of an Orruk Megaboss may reroll failed Charge Rolls in the Charge phase.
  • Ironclad - I told you it wasn't forgotten.
    Reduce the rend characteristic of all weapons used to target an Orruk Megaboss by 1, to a minimum of "-".

This gives the Footboss a much clearer roll in an Ironjawz army while also making him more resilient as he slogs his way to combat. The restriction to charge phase charges is intentional because of the change to Mighty Destroyers down in the insane section. Allowing his ability to affect any Orruk within 10" also makes him a great allies choice or even an inclusion in a GA:Destruction army. He's such a fantastic model he really deserves to see more use.

Weirdnob Shaman

  • Greenpuke - No longer a Spell
    Weirdnob shamans channel the raw Waaagh! energy from Orruks around them. In the shooting draw a straight line 2d6" long from the Weirdnob. Any enemy unit this line crosses takes d3 mortal wounds as the Waaagh! energy bursts forth from the Weirdnob in a torrent of destructive green energy. If you roll a double when determining the range the Shaman takes a mortal wound after this attack finishes due to the violent Waaagh! ravaging their body as it leaves.

Removes one of the shamans spells and instead turns it into a short ranged attack. This adds a slightly more reliable source of mortal wounds to Ironjawz while also justifying the Weirdnobs higher points cost compared to other wizards. Does so without giving him 2 casts/unbindings a turn. Actually makes it worth bringing more than one in your Army.

Gore Gruntas

  • Jagged Gore-Hacka - Attacks Profile changed, Ability added
    Now only has 2 attacks but hits on a 3+ instead. 
    When a unit of Goregruntas makes a successful charge  in the charge phase, increase the rend of attacks made with a Jagged Gore-Hackas to by 1 to "-2"

Adds a higher rend option which is conditional. The improvement to 3+ at the cost of an attack makes the choice here a serious consideration.

Ardboys

  • Minor Points Cost Decrease - 160/400
    Makes them slightly cheaper than Brutes but slightly more expensive than Goregruntas. Generally makes them slightly easier to field with a 50 point reduction at max unit size. Should offset some other changes to be made down below, and the slight increase in warchanter points cost.

Phase 2 - Descent into Shroom Crazed Madness

So the three big things I haven't tackled so far are 

  1. Ironjawz are still slow as ******
  2. Mighty Destroyers
  3. Battalions

This is ultimately because the three of them are so tightly linked. The changes that are coming up are all a consideration of this single combined problem. The Ironfist is mandatory, which makes Ironjawz technically faster than a bunch of other factions but has both a points tax and is conditional. As a result of the Ironfist Mighty Destroyers can't be to good or we will be zipping across the battlefield in a giant mockery of other factions cavalry. The only battalion worth anything compared to the Ironfist is the Gorefist because mobility is such an issue. Overall the problems stem from how much potential extra movement we get and how variable it makes us. To this end I think the first item to comment on is pretty obvious.

Ironfist

  • Organisation - Added Footboss
    1 Orruk Megaboss (Footboss)
    3-5 Ironjawz units.
  • Ironfist Big Boss
    The Orruk Megaboss is the battalions Big Boss, add 2 to his wounds characteristic.

This adds a 140 tax to the Ironfist in the form of a Footboss. Also makes him vulnerable to snipes but does give him the +2 wounds. Essentially a tax to increase it's points cost without just increasing the points cost.

Brutefist

  • Organisation - Added Footboss
    1 Orruk Megaboss (Footboss)
    3-5 units of Orruk Brutes
  • Brute Big Boss - Changed
    Now called Biggest and Ardest: Add two to the wounds characteristic of the Battalions Orruk Megaboss.
  • Green-skinned Battering Ram - Redsigned
    A Brutefist is a living tide of destruction which is impossible to stop. When you make a charge move with any of the units in this battalion they may pass across models and terrain as though it was not there. The unit must still end within Coherency and cannot end the move ontop of any other model.
    When a unit moves over any enemy units in this way, once per turn per unit, they may inflict d3 mortal wounds to that unit.
  • Points Cost Increased to 220 points
    The double whammy of a 140 for the Footboss and 40 extra for the battalion will make way more sense after reading the redesigned Mighty Destroyers. Just trust me on that.

This makes the Brutefist a way more viable option, allowing the Brutes to potentially bypass blocking units and get into units your opponent is trying to protect. It combines amazingly well with the updated Footboss and the extra 2 wounds on him brings him up to a staggering 9 wounds. Hopefully really opens up the choices and brings it in line with the other battalions we have available .

Ardfist

  • Endless Waaagh! - New Ability
    Add two wounds to the Battalions Warchanter.
  • Drawn to the the Waaagh! - Redesigned Slightly
    The thundering beat drummed out by Orruk Warchanters draws Orruks from all across the mortal realms. Once per hero phase, while the Warchanter is still alive, roll a d6. You may add that many Ardboys, distributed as you want, to the units in the battalion who are within 10" of the Warchanter.
  • Proving Grounds
    In addition to it's normal effects, any Ardboy unit with 20 or more models affected by the Warchanters Frenzy of Violence causes a mortal wound when they roll a 6+ to wound instead of it's normal damage.

This makes the Ardboys in the battalion potentially throw out mortal wounds. However all the power of the battalion is concentrated into the Warchanter. Potentially makes an army of Arboys actually quite dangerous but is very vulnerable to hero sniping despite his now 8 wounds. Combined with the Points cost reduction on Ardboys should open up some fun fluff lists.

Weirdfist

As we descend further into the shroom fueled visions we get to the first one which is both potentially competitive and very out there in terms of rules.

  • Organisation - Changed
    1 Weirdnob Shaman
    1 Unit of Ardboys
  • Vortex of Waaagh! Energy
    This battalion must be deployed together and the Weirdnob is considered to be part of the Ardboy unit for the entire of the game, he must remain within coherency and cannot be targeted separate from the unit. The Ardboy unit gains the Hero, Wizard and Weirdnob Shaman keywords so long as the Weirdnob is alive. If the Weirdnob dies then the unit loses those keywords.
  • Power of the Waaagh!
    When calculating the bonuses to casting and unbinding for the Weirdnob shaman instead calculate the number of models left in this battalion and multiply it by 2 to work out whether or not you get the bonus.
  • Channel The Waaagh!
    When determining the range for Casting or Unbinding a spell you may do so from any model in the unit. If you do so that model is considered to be the origin of the spell for that Casting or Unbinding roll.

Bloodtoofs

  • Organisation change
    1 Cabbage
    Either 1 Ironfist or 1 Brutefist (The battalion must include at least one Brute unit with 20 Models)

Requiring the full strength unit of Brutes is a huge Swing in the dark. However with the change to the Brutefist makes this potentially an intresting choice especially when the +2 bravery is added on the increase to 7 on the warscroll itself. Requires a huge investment but since it doesn't need the full 5 units in the battalion it doesn't actually work out any more expensive. The primary cost increase comes from the 140 points required to get the footboss in either the Ironfist or the Brutefist.

Phase 3 - Prophecies of Gorkamorka

This is what I've been building up to here. You can no doubt see the references to it the whole way through and might have gleaned what I'm thinking of, it's definitely crazy though but has huge potential.

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Mighty Destroyers - Redesigned Completely

  • At the start of your movement phase, any unit within 6" of an Ironjawz hero may declare a charge, Even if they normally could not. In addition you may complete this charge even if you would not end within 1/2" of an enemy model. This counts as the units move for that turn.

 

This has a few huge ramifications and implications which I'll go through to really try and explain it in full.

We have to note that because it occurs in the movement phase this means that it happens after the Ironfist movement, this is very important to avoid some very dodgy interactions and should hopefully keep the Ironfist from being mandatory. It also requires that the units be within 6" of a hero, this gives your opponent some counter play and requires tactical play to properly utilise all of which is important given the strength of the ability. Going through the warscrolls above I've been careful to try and stop any interactions with this which let you reroll or otherwise mess around with this roll. The only exception is the Brutefist which can use this to move through enemy units and inflict the D3 wounds, if they do though they won't be able to then inflict the mortal wounds later in the turn.

The most basic usage of this is that you can choose, instead of using the movement listed on the warscroll, to make a charge move. For a unit like the Goregruntas this is potentially a very bad trade off, but for Ardboys it's an amazing options, the minimum move distance is 5" while the maximum is 15". It allows the slower parts of the Ironjawz army to move faster but slaanesh isn't going to suddenly be jealous of the faster elements.

What makes this truly unique however is that you can declare the charge even if you are already locked in combat. This lets Ironjawz move through a combat like no other army out there, forcing your opponent to ensure that no holes in his lines open up which could let the IJ charge through and get behind them. Obviously this combines amazingly well with the new and Improved Brutefist, there truly is no stopping it as even if you lock them in combat they can just charge right through your unit in the movement phase dishing out d3 mortal wounds for your troubles. Another option is to have your Gore-gruntas declare a charge in the movement phase, if they roll an 8+ then it activates their d3 damage even though they are already in combat.

Mighty Destroyers is now an ability which gives Ironjawz unparalleled mastery of the combat and charge phase, able to get round blocking units, quickly cover ground and get hold of things your opponent is trying to protect. Beware however, this IS a charge movement, deadly terrain will still ****** you and those sylvaneth wildwoods are even more scary now you can't destruction move to power through.

Conclusion

As I said at the start the idea of this is to start discussions. I tried to put the more sane and benign suggestions/changes at the start so they didn't get wrapped up in what is clearly a Gorkamorka blessed vision of what could be. I'll try and have a think about new units/heroes we could potentially add to the Ironjawz but I wanted to keep this post as a change to what is rather than asking for entirely new units. First thing which jumps to mind is a Weirdnob on Mawkrusha esque model but how to stat it or justify it is a whole separate post.

Comment and discuss, maybe we can get Ironjawz the update they deserve!

Edited by Malakree
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I agree with most of the stuff you said for sure. I only have 2000pts of Ironjawz if I run Gordrakk and man, he is definitely overcosted for what he does. Sure, he packs a punch, but he goes down so fast. The exalted daemon of nurgle has a better warscroll and he is only 500 pts.

Totally agree about the gore gruntas. The wording is awkward and making an 8" charge toward the nearest enemy unit is unlikely and unreliable. Would love to clean that up to just rolling and 8.

On the other hand, I've found Mighty Waaaag ! to be pretty effective, as I exclusively run MSU of brutes, gore gruntas, and ardboys so I always have enough units for the extra attack and often roll a 6 for the doubles. Again, so much better than Gordrakk as it's useable more than once per game...

I have not used the shaman or the ardboys with shields, so I cant speak to the viability of their abilities but I'll go out on a limb and guess you have the right of it. I would love some minor updates to Ironjawz, but alas, it seems we will be waiting at least 6 months.

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I'd like to propose streamlining "Waaagh!" to be an ability that isn't annoying to resolve in the game. You use it in the hero phase, then later in combat you count up units within 10" and then you roll a d6 and need to get low, but sometimes a 6 is amazing, it's just a pain and easily forgotten with phases in between activation and result. Can't it just be a command ability where you just use it and it works? 

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I would prefer WAAAGH! to kick off in the hero phase. The surrounding orruks get pumped up and runs (move + charge ofc :) )off towards the enemy.

It would be easier to get atleast one off and it would justify it being a "one combat phase only" ability.

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I really like the aesthetics of ironjawz but man is it harder and harder not to start looking at other armies and feeling envious.  Your write up deals with a lot of our issues and would be awesome if it was implemented.  Good job.

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the gor grunta ability is extra weird if you consider that you can just run around in circles technically to get those extra inches

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Love all of these ideas and suggestions! How can we raise the visibility of this to GW? I feel like an army wide warscroll adjustment could be done to bring Ironjawz more inline with more contemporary releases, seams reasonable. 

Really though we could use like, 3-4 more kits to really round out the force and fill some gaps in our army. 

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Finally finished the Quality of Life and Dreaming sections of the original post. Cheers for the feedback so far guys, hope you have as much fun with it as I had writing it!

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Awesome post, really enjoyed reading and I fully agree with the vast majority of it.

Ardboyz are a particular bug bear of mine, they are just not the elite unit they are priced as.  Compare them to Tzaangors who cost exactly the same, and the gulf is huge.  When I played my friend's Khorne, he was shocked at how weak Ardboyz are for their points (even relative to his Blood Reavers) - he wanted to read the warscroll to see if they really were that bland!

On Command Traits, I totally agree that Ironclad is the only way to go.  That being said it's still worse than what other armies have.  Essentially it improves the save for one model in some circumstances.  Staunch Defender improves the save for most of your army in all circumstances.  It's straight-up better.  Playing Ironjawz against competitive armies is certainly good training, because I feel like you are up against it the whole time and really have to box clever to stand a chance.

The biggest quick fix for me is the FOV / Mighty Waaagh.  It really feels out of step with the rest of the game that they are not active until your next Hero Phase.  

I'm not sure we'll get a proper overhaul since we got the GH17 update, but there is enough that's showing its age in the warscrolls (and a limited enough model range) that the full Battletome treatment is justified.  Might have a bit of a wait on our hands for that though.

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@Malakree some good stuff in there especially the slight wording revisions. This is particularly relevant because working until next hero phase would be a simple boon and not require significant shake up to the scrolls themselves. 

Some thought from me on a couple of things. 

Brutefist: 

rather than wholesale dhange a simple removal of the 10” requirement and activate it on ANY charge would make this totally worthwhile  as you then can have a potential of 4 activations (hero phase, mighty destroyers and charge phase, opponents charge phase with brutish cunning) If it then only worked while big boss is alive (like Ironfist) this would be a fair cost and also a very Competative alternative to Ironfist (or no formation) 

mighty destroyers:

With the other 2 allegience abilities I feel this is a fair rule, the only change I think that is needed (and one I highlighted immediately after playing one game) is that the Ironjawz player should be able to choose one of the 3 options (I.e you have a unit 9” from enemy but chose to move 6” rather than charge) and also it should say “pile in and attack” .  Each unit can only be selected for each action once per hero phase to offset this extra power. 

This would significantly increase its tactical application and also make ironjawz stronger (if still a random chance).  It would also solve a lot of the points and gripes about other ironjawz issues because even Ardboyz getting to fight twice is nice and arguably with this change you wouldn’t need to adjust any of the points (except gordrakk) from when they are now. 

Gordrakk: 

change to 560 in line with a stardrake this would make him playable and Competative option becasue while he wouldn’t get the traits or artifacts he is such a deadly piece in the right circumstances. 

Goregruntas: 

d3 damage on any successful charge roll of 8 or more is a simple change combine this with rend -1 on goregruntas attacks and this scroll would be perfect imo. 

Brutes:

leave as is we have the tools now to deal with bravery issues and also does make bestial charisma a viable choice for command trait along with, the boss skewer and the golden toof.  Also with some of the changes suggested these guys benefit anyway. 

Overall:

a lot of the crazy stuff is cool but I would suggest that any wholesale rules changes are unlikely to happen considering there are books and warscroll cards for sale, for that reason the more simple wording changes that can be squeezed into the first section and change with an easy FAQ are more likely to be noticed and maybe even actioned.  Brilliant post though and nice to see some discussion going on after a nice lazy holidays season :-)

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9 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

Goregruntas: 

d3 damage on any successful charge roll of 8 or more is a simple change combine this with rend -1 on goregruntas attacks and this scroll would be perfect imo. 

I thought about -1 rend on the pigs attacks but figured it would be OP haha. Honestly I went for adjusting the unused weapon to provide options rather than straight buffs, at 140 points I feel like they are really solid. Personal opinion is that if there is an Ironjawz list strong enough to compete atm it will be built around GG's

9 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

Brutes:

leave as is we have the tools now to deal with bravery issues and also does make bestial charisma a viable choice for command trait along with, the boss skewer and the golden toof.  Also with some of the changes suggested these guys benefit anyway. 

Yeah that's why I didn't suggest giving them bravery 8/9. I feel like 180 points with bravery 6 is just way to risky, I know you love your brutes but the more I play the more I just don't rate them against GG's. As you said there are tools but I hate that we are forced to use those tools, with bravery 7 the tools are still amazing but they no longer risk bravery from almost accidental damage.

Overall yeah I agree with you that brutes don't really need any changes, that bit was mostly just me airing one of my pet grievances. Big Ard Brutes see another Orruk die and suddenly wet their pants??

10 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

Gordrakk: 

change to 560 in line with a stardrake this would make him playable and Competative option becasue while he wouldn’t get the traits or artifacts he is such a deadly piece in the right circumstances. 

Gordrakk is one of those models that I'm really unsure about. I don't have enough experience with him to say one thing or another and realistically with the changes I suggested he could totally be worth 620 points. Only reason I suggested a points decrease was so that he would fit more easily alongside another cabbage in an army list to really make use of the fact he doesn't need to be your general to use his command abilities, once I'd finished writing that I thought it was such a cool ability I wanted it to be used!

With regards to Mighty Destroyers, and this could be a post all on it's own, is that it's to random. Even with 4 heroes there's still a 29% chance on any turn that you won't get any, when you consider that it's really only massively important in Turn 1/2 we lose 15% of our games just because we didn't get a mighty destroyers proc. On the other side of the coin the 1.3% of the time we get 3 consecutive procs on turn 1 it's complete and utter filth which our opponent has every right to be disgusted with.

That's the big problem I have with the current ability, it's not consistent and can randomly win or lose games. It's to much power in 1 to 4 rolls with all the same restrictions of deathless minions for death which is a considerably more powerful for that effect.

I was kinda hoping the crazy stuff would prompt other people to throw out ideas :( definitely appreciate the more conservative approach though. With regards to huge crazy changes wtb Ironjawz: 2018 same way stormcast got an update with SC:2017

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I Love these ideas, Giving the gore gruntas Options, , as well as changes to the Bosses and Putting the Footboss into batallions makes sense, its clear Ironjawz need a bit of a shake up to become competitive. on the note of Ironjawz Releases there was a monetion of something called Rok Boys in one of the books and on one of the recent warhammer live's there was a black library writer saying that specific units/ models they write about are stuff that is currently being made or stuff that is coming, this is all speculation of course but we may have more Jawz on the way :D 

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1 hour ago, Hypno said:

I Love these ideas, Giving the gore gruntas Options, , as well as changes to the Bosses and Putting the Footboss into batallions makes sense, its clear Ironjawz need a bit of a shake up to become competitive. on the note of Ironjawz Releases there was a monetion of something called Rok Boys in one of the books and on one of the recent warhammer live's there was a black library writer saying that specific units/ models they write about are stuff that is currently being made or stuff that is coming, this is all speculation of course but we may have more Jawz on the way :D 

Gorkamorka, don't even get my hopes up :D

With the new Lord of Blights or whatever, new rotbringer hero, the idea that a hero can give like a shooting attack to a unit that didn't have one opens up a whole bunch of possibilities.

Rok Boys sound perfect, medium range boys that huck stuff? I'd be more than down. 

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the description of the Rok Boys is that they are even more heavily armoured than normal Ironjawz so like Ironjawz Meganobs 

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1 minute ago, Hypno said:

the description of the Rok Boys is that they are even more heavily armoured than normal Ironjawz so like Ironjawz Meganobs 

That would be pretty neat, like a 3 model unit of what would be to Brutes what Nobs are to Boyz

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1 hour ago, Hypno said:

the description of the Rok Boys is that they are even more heavily armoured than normal Ironjawz so like Ironjawz Meganobs 

I'd like to see more original ideas than just 40k themes transferred over to AoS. 

I haven't read many books but one I did mentioned Gorrdrak sending out scouts so if any 40k Ork-to-Orruk theme were to happen i'd prefer Kommandos (scouts).

In regards to GG, would increasing the range of hackers to 3" or perhaps give them a -1 rend on the charge while equipped with hackers add any worthwhile strategic options?

Great write up OP.

Edited by Vasshpit
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12 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

I'd like to see more original ideas than just 40k themes transferred over to AoS. 

I haven't read many books but one I did mentioned Gorrdrak sending out scouts so if any 40k Ork-to-Orruk theme were to happen i'd prefer Kommandos (scouts).

It’s not really a 40k theme that was just me giving an idea of what they could be like and giving a current unit as a comparison the description of them was that they are more heavily armoured clanking in all their armour and struggling to keep up with the rest of the Ironjawz  horde

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15 minutes ago, Hypno said:

It’s not really a 40k theme that was just me giving an idea of what they could be like and giving a current unit as a comparison the description of them was that they are more heavily armoured clanking in all their armour and struggling to keep up with the rest of the Ironjawz  horde

you can't get slower than the rest of the ironjawz. When you get to 3" movement you move slower than siege weapons....

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Megaboss on s is needed urgently :-) 

going to crazy ideas land I’d love to see a large airship type model to compete with the ironclad that can double up as speed and firepower to get my brutes where dey is needed fasta 

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6 hours ago, Malakree said:

you can't get slower than the rest of the ironjawz. When you get to 3" movement you move slower than siege weapons....

no i doubt they'd actually be slower that's just the short description about them in the book

 

6 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

going to crazy ideas land I’d love to see a large airship type model to compete with the ironclad that can double up as speed and firepower to get my brutes where dey is needed fasta 

along the lines of the wow horde one?... an IronJawz airship would be awesome though

Hellscream'sFist.jpg

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Yeah the horde one would be perfect, or if not airborne maybe a tank/armoured battering ram style contraption (literally endless possibilities but a big contraption wih armour bashed or nailed to it 😂

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9 hours ago, Malakree said:

you can't get slower than the rest of the ironjawz. When you get to 3" movement you move slower than siege weapons....

That's true, but they do have other ways of slowing down heavy units.  E.g. the Overtyrant's "Too Rich To Walk" ability (only roll one dice on the charge).  Another one could be roll two dice when running and take the lowest for example.  And just excluding them from the Ironfist will slow them down a fair bit too.

NB I'm not advocating that I actually want Ironjawz to be painfully slow!  Just pointing out that there are other ways to represent the heavy armour than reducing the movement characteristic below 4"

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1 hour ago, Sangfroid said:

Yeah the horde one would be perfect, or if not airborne maybe a tank/armoured battering ram style contraption (literally endless possibilities but a big contraption wih armour bashed or nailed to it 😂

I don't know if any of you got the "How to Paint" book, but there was a little bit of lore for the various clans in there (one of them being Bloodtoofs, which of course went on to get the big batallion). 

There was one of them (Skybashaz?) talking about Brutes flying around on scrap craft...basically zipping around the board on hoverboards made out of junk, powered by Waaagh energy and optimism!  That would be pretty cool. 

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Quote

If we're wish listing I would love to see:

1. Ardboyz with crossbows

2. Megaboss on a goregrunta / grunta chariot

To me those things are distinctly Greenskinz Orruks and not Ironjawz. I think a Weirdnob on Goregrunta would be cool but I just don't like the idea of chariots or bows/Xbows in Ironjawz.

 

So I had another crazy ass idea for an Ironjawz Allegiance instead of Mighty Destroyers. It started with the idea of Ironjawz type prayers but that felt kinda samey and not thematically appropriate. So this then transitioned to an army wide buff you roll at the start of the turn, that seemed really unreliable though or it's just going to be a bunch of generic things. Finally settled on this format it's a little lengthy but it should be cool, some of the stuff is guna be way OP but eh the format is the main thing.

The Great Waaagh!

Ironjawz are the closest in the mortal realms to the great Gorkamorka and like their two headed god they are always seeking stronger foes to fight and bigger things to smash. When they come together to form a Great Waaagh! the mortal realms tremble and Even the Two Headed God takes notice, through their Champions Gork and Mork further inspire the Waaagh! to even mighty and more destructive acts!

At the start of your hero phase each of your units can pick one Boon from Gorkamorka as they channel their fury into the Ironjawz inspiring them to even greater heights of Violence.

At the start of your hero phase d6 for every Ironjawz Hero in your army, they and any unit within 6" of them can choose to gain the corresponding boon from the Two Headed Gods as Gork or Mork channel their power through That Hero. A unit may always choose Ironclad, even if they are not within 6" of an Ironjawz hero.

  •  Ironclad: Reduce the rend of any attack targeting this unit by "-1" to a minimum of "-"
  1. Mighty Destroyers: Increase the units Movement characteristic by 4" until the start of your next hero phase.
  2. Stampeding Charge: Until the end of your next hero phase the may move as though they could fly whenever they make a charge move.
  3. Unstoppable Green Tide: If a model from this unit flees, or is affected by an Instikill mechanic, roll a d6. On a roll of  5 or 6 the model doesn't flee or ignores the effect.
  4.  Cunning of Mork: Until the this turn the unit may charge in the charge phase even if it ran or retreated from combat.
  5.  Fury of Gork: Every model in the unit may instantly pile in and make a single attack with each of it's weapons.
  6. Shards of Worldbreaker: Whenever this unit makes an attack and rolls a 6+ to wound it inflicts a number of Mortal Wounds equal to it's damage instead of it's normal damage.

As I said, the options totally aren't balanced and it's a little bit complicated. I Imagine it would take some getting used to/keeping track of but I hope each of the options seems like it would be worth picking. The idea is that every turn you have to pick one from a random selection based on what heroes you have near which units. It means keeping your heroes alive is important and while you don't get any more buffs from having multiple heroes near a unit the odds that you get the buff you want increases. I put Ironclad as the base always available ability because it's generically good and thematically fits amazingly well with the Ironjawz. It should also make sure there is an interesting choice every turn. For example Ironclad makes you way more resistant to shooting attacks but the +4" movement potentially gets you into combat sooner.

I feel like this is a more interesting way of doing the Prayers/Faction Spell List which fits better for Ironjawz than either of those. Thoughts/Opinions?

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