Choosing a Dorf Army

[RaritanAnon]

2 minutes ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

Kharadron are so cool and I think have a lot of untapped potential - they get bashed online a lot it seems.

I'm just not a fan, but yeah, they get a bad rep. One viable army list and all those other memes.

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

7 minutes ago, RaritanAnon said:

I'm just not a fan, but yeah, they get a bad rep. One viable army list and all those other memes.

That Zilfin deepstrike though...  haha!

Hopefully a lot of the other combos like Barak Mhornar 1st turn arkanaut skyhook rush gets used so the "clown-car" fades away.

[RaritanAnon]

In regards to the topic I'm wavering on either going Dispossessed using Ironweld Allies or Tempest's Eye with Fyreslayer Allies for some Runesmiter+Auric shenanigans.

As far as competition goes, Dispossessed is probably better off, but mixing all three would look pretty cool on the field in a Tempest's Eye army.

Hmm. Worse artifacts and general traits though. I miss out on that Ancestral Pickaxe strike. 

[RaritanAnon]

Update: So after some fenangling with some lists and mathhammering things out a bit, I think a I've come to a mostly solid conclusion.

Tempest's Eye is a great faction, but I can't without a doubt say that losing the Dispossessed allegiance and artifacts is a huge hit. I really like the idea of taking as much Ironweld stuff as I want, in a list, but that's arguably done a lot better by Greywater Fastness. And I'd be losing out on a lot if I was going to try and squeeze Fyreslayers into the list as well, since they're rather expensive points wise considering I'm capitalizing on as many war machines as I can get. So for lists, this is what I came up for for a Tempest's Eye all-dwarf list.

Allegiance: Tempest's Eye
Warden King (120)
- General
- Trait: Legendary Fighter
- Artefact: Relic Blade
Runelord (80)
Cogsmith (100)
Gunmaster (80)

20 x Warriors (160)
- Double-handed Duardin Axes & Shields
20 x Warriors (160)
- Double-handed Duardin Axes & Shields
20 x Longbeards (240)
- Great Axes & Shields
20 x Irondrakes (400)
Organ Gun (120)
Organ Gun (120)
Cannon (180)
Gyrocopters (80)
- Gun: Steam Gun
Gyrocopters (80)
- Gun: Steam Gun
Gyrobombers (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125

It looks good on paper, support the machines with the engineers sitting in the middle of them. Fire the cannon at dangerous things. Organ guns for everything else. Use the dwarfs to mandhandle the table as best as you can while your copters get into position to punish. Use the bomber as a harassment/objective grabber.

All in all I like it, but I keep wondering if it's worth missing out on Dispossessed grudges/artifacts/traits. The Order ones are 'just ok' comparatively, even though there's really only one good Trait/Artifact from Dispossessed. Gaining extra movement and +1 to my saves on the first round could really save my butt from a really aggressive Sylvaneth or Nighthaunt player.

Now for the other side, this is what I came up with for a Dispossessed list.

Allegiance: Dispossessed
- Grudge: Monstrous Cheaters
Runelord (80)
- General
- Trait: Resolute 
- Artefact: Ancestral Pickaxe 
Warden King (120)
- Artefact: Piledriver Gauntlets 
Runelord (80)
Runelord (80)
Gunmaster (80)
- Allies
20 x Warriors (160)
- Double-handed Duardin Axes & Shields
20 x Warriors (160)
- Double-handed Duardin Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (120)
- Great Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (120)
- Great Axes & Shields
10 x Ironbreakers (160)
10 x Irondrakes (200)
10 x Irondrakes (200)
Gyrobombers (80)
- Allies
Gyrocopters (80)
- Gun: Steam Gun
- Allies
Organ Gun (120)
- Allies
Grudgebound War Throng (160)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 360 / 400
Wounds: 128

Somewhat similar, swapping out the extra Ironweld for more Irondrakes and a Runelord. Out of the two, I can see this one being a little weaker, to be quite honest, but Irondrakes are pretty good on their own, and Ironbreakers are nothing to sniff at. I took the Grudgebound Warthrong for the one-drop and the extra artifact, but I'm not too happy of having Dwarf MSU style gameplay running around. 10 Longbeards seems really squishy at the end of the day. Even without the War Throng my list ended up looking somewhat similar to the Tempest's Eye list above, just with pumped up Dwarf units and more Runelords. Also, I have to include a human Weaponmaster instead of the Cogsmith, due to points. This really doesn't mean anything at the end of the day though aside from ALL SHORT AESTHETIC.

Anyway, I said I had a conclusion but I actually haven't come to one quite yet. I'll tell you which one sounds a lot more fun, and that's the Tempest's Eye list. I'm not 100% convinced the Dispossessed specials really outweigh the 'taking more heavy weaponry' part of the Free Cities rules. I'll leave this information here and I'll let you guys pick and prod through what I've written. See if you can glean on if I'm wrong or right in my discoveries and ideas. Thanks.

 

Edit: I have since made a poll. 

http://www.strawpoll.me/14752469

[RaritanAnon]

I slept on my Tempest's Eye idea and found it mostly folly. I'd be running a slightly gimpy Grand Alliance all for the idea of ALL DWARFS LOL when in fact I'd just be already lacerating any competitiveness right at the head, regardless of what units I took. This is what I came up with as a reply. To myself.

I was excited to run both copters and war-machines in the same list. With allies points I'm pretty limited. So that was my 'next best thing'. I slept on it, and I think you're right. The Tempest's Eye+GA abilities aren't really worth shooting myself in the foot for. I sort of considered running 1000pts of Fyreslayers and just stopping there, but then I would never expand since for anything 2000pts of Fyreslayers, you need 90 Vulkites to be any competitive.

That may be the issue is that I'm not a competitive sort, but I already have a 'probably never going to win' army in 40k. So I don't really know if there's a 'semi-competitive' option in play I don't know about? All I know is that I don't like Kharadron models, so they're dead out. Disposessed and Fyreslayers are the only options.

That being said, that brings me to what I want to put into my allies then, running Dispossessed allegiance. For 1000pts, I'm pretty limited. Well, based on my preference I mean.
- Organ Gun and Weaponmaster (for rerolls)
- Cannon
- Auric Runesmiter and 5 Auric Hearthguard
- Two Gyrocopters
- Runesmiter on Magmadroth
- ???

So that's where I'm going. At the end of the day it sort of looks like I'll need sort of the same 'base units' for each. King, Runelord, Warriors, Longbeards, Irondrakes. After that I can do whatever I want. That is, unless I want to run a Fyreslayers main throng, in which case I can run 400pts of vanilla Dorfs for flavor. At least at that point I can make the choice not to do 90 freakin Vulkites if I wanted. I just wish there was a way to take Fyreslayers and Dwarfs in some kind of Grand Alliance: Dorf.

[Andreas]

You don't need 90 vulkites to make a good fyreslayers list. I made a quick list below and I think it would win (some) tournament games and it only has 30 vulkites (and only uses one magma kit to save some cost.)

 

Auric Runefather (80)
- General
- Trait: Exemplar of the Ancestor 
Auric Runesmiter (80)
- Artefact: Ash-plume Sigil 
Auric Runeson on Magmadroth (240)
Battlesmith (80)
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
10 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (200)
10 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (200)
30 x Auric Hearthguard (480) (Tunneling)
Organ Gun (120)
Cannon (180)

[RaritanAnon]

8 minutes ago, Andreas said:

You don't need 90 vulkites to make a good fyreslayers list. I made a quick list below and I think it would win (some) tournament games and it only has 30 vulkites (and only uses one magma kit to save some cost.)

 

Auric Runefather (80)
- General
- Trait: Exemplar of the Ancestor 
Auric Runesmiter (80)
- Artefact: Ash-plume Sigil 
Auric Runeson on Magmadroth (240)
Battlesmith (80)
30 x Vulkite Berzerkers (330)
10 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (200)
10 x Hearthguard Berzerkers (200)
30 x Auric Hearthguard (480) (Tunneling)
Organ Gun (120)
Cannon (180)

I've been playing around a bit with the builder as well. The majority of comp lists though, do spam Vulkites, which is a pain. Not only are the models largely similar, that's a crapton of skin to paint. Those two things have been my biggest 'I don't want that' out of picking an army. Plus, basically, I want to play for 1000pts right now and go with 2000 at some other point. On that notion, I have this list for 1000pts for Fyreslayers, and this one for 1000pts for Dispossessed. I think at the end of the day, it's gonna come down to which one I like the most. Because whatever I get, I'll end up putting in my 2000pt, as well. I guess if there was a bottom line, this is it, blocking some kind of list whittling.

 

[Andreas]

28 minutes ago, RaritanAnon said:

I've been playing around a bit with the builder as well. The majority of comp lists though, do spam Vulkites, which is a pain. Not only are the models largely similar, that's a crapton of skin to paint. Those two things have been my biggest 'I don't want that' out of picking an army. Plus, basically, I want to play for 1000pts right now and go with 2000 at some other point. On that notion, I have this list for 1000pts for Fyreslayers, and this one for 1000pts for Dispossessed. I think at the end of the day, it's gonna come down to which one I like the most. Because whatever I get, I'll end up putting in my 2000pt, as well. I guess if there was a bottom line, this is it, blocking some kind of list whittling.

 

Yes I do think Vulkites spam is the way to go if you want to play at the UK masters ? but I also think 60 might be enough even at that level. I am not sure the third block gives you enough value but that debatable. I have 90 painted Vulkites so I know the pain.

My point is that right now you can throw  almost every combination of units you want and the list will be competative enough for you to win games.

Regarding your 1000pt list, if you want to make it stronger force yourself to paint 10 more Vulkites and add a Battlesmith. You can drop the magma or the aurics.

[RaritanAnon]

1 hour ago, Andreas said:

Yes I do think Vulkites spam is the way to go if you want to play at the UK masters ? but I also think 60 might be enough even at that level. I am not sure the third block gives you enough value but that debatable. I have 90 painted Vulkites so I know the pain.

My point is that right now you can throw  almost every combination of units you want and the list will be competative enough for you to win games.

Regarding your 1000pt list, if you want to make it stronger force yourself to paint 10 more Vulkites and add a Battlesmith. You can drop the magma or the aurics.

Hm, yeah I can agree on the 'take 30 vulkites or none' sort of outlook. That save-after-the-save is pretty monstrous. But wouldnt running a big block like that be kinda messed up in 1000pts? Any advice on the Dispossessed list? So far I'm hanging between them because I like both of their models. Dispo also has the edge on having different looking models. Ugh. I don't think this is as hard as I'm making it out to be. Do other people have such issues?

[Andreas]

I havn't played dispossessed but I would probably do something like this.

Warden King (120)
Runelord (80)
Runelord (80)
40 x Warriors (280)
10 x Longbeards (120)
20 x Quarrellers (240)
Gyrocopters (80)

I would put IP om the block of  40 warriors and both forgefire on the Quarrellers.

[flamingwalnut]

A suggestion if I may, no idea if this is something you'd like or you and your playgroup would be ok with but: how about converting non-dwarf units into dwarves? 

You could, for example, make some some dwarf cavalry out of the Stormcast Dracoth stuff, or a big Dwarf golem to stand in as a Treelord. Obviously this all depends on your group and your conversion skill/patience, but it could get you variety and help flesh out a theme, the mortal realms ARE huge afterall.

Or maybe not, just a thought. I just know that doing an entire army, even with allies, out of a smallish faction (anything not Stormcast or Chaos...) can get boring. Grand Alliance Order, with some city stuff, IS pretty cool, and who knows what kind of synergy you can work out in GA: Order with a broader variety of Dwarf themed units. 

[RaritanAnon]

On 1/5/2018 at 5:28 PM, flamingwalnut said:

A suggestion if I may, no idea if this is something you'd like or you and your playgroup would be ok with but: how about converting non-dwarf units into dwarves? 

You could, for example, make some some dwarf cavalry out of the Stormcast Dracoth stuff, or a big Dwarf golem to stand in as a Treelord. Obviously this all depends on your group and your conversion skill/patience, but it could get you variety and help flesh out a theme, the mortal realms ARE huge afterall.

Or maybe not, just a thought. I just know that doing an entire army, even with allies, out of a smallish faction (anything not Stormcast or Chaos...) can get boring. Grand Alliance Order, with some city stuff, IS pretty cool, and who knows what kind of synergy you can work out in GA: Order with a broader variety of Dwarf themed units. 

Not a horrible idea really. Dispossessed have a bit of a gap they have to use Ironweld to fill, but you can either go with a bunch of Gyros or a bunch of War Machines. But not both. It's a bit annoying.

So as I've been thinking and talking with some buddies, they basically agree that Dispossessed are probably not going to get updated any time soon but that doesn't meant theye're not going to get any love. They keep getting mentioned in the fluff, so it's just a matter of time. Maybe.

I've also been considering Chaos Dwarfs, even though I don't generally like playing the bad guy. Their warmachines are a lot better and the models look pretty cool. It's a shame they're like, $400 for 1000pts though. And if you don't order them all at once, you get screwed by FW shipping.

I don't think I'm going to do Fyreslayers. I like them, but I can't see myself building an army of them and being happy with it.

[flamingwalnut]

1 hour ago, RaritanAnon said:

Not a horrible idea really. Dispossessed have a bit of a gap they have to use Ironweld to fill, but you can either go with a bunch of Gyros or a bunch of War Machines. But not both. It's a bit annoying.

So as I've been thinking and talking with some buddies, they basically agree that Dispossessed are probably not going to get updated any time soon but that doesn't meant theye're not going to get any love. They keep getting mentioned in the fluff, so it's just a matter of time. Maybe.

I've also been considering Chaos Dwarfs, even though I don't generally like playing the bad guy. Their warmachines are a lot better and the models look pretty cool. It's a shame they're like, $400 for 1000pts though. And if you don't order them all at once, you get screwed by FW shipping.

I don't think I'm going to do Fyreslayers. I like them, but I can't see myself building an army of them and being happy with it.

If model price and "being the bad guys" rub ya the wrong way, why not convert the Chaos Dwarf stuff out of regular Dwarves? Most of the War Machines are just elaborate machines, and Bull Centaurs could very much be Dwarf Cavalry counts as. Again, requires a lot of work and such, so maybe not for you, but worth a look. (And yes, I am THAT kinda guy, I love a good conversion, so I almost always suggest that if it at all applies. lol)

Sadly, I wouldn't count on Dispossesed getting any love outside of Fyreslayer/Kharadron for allies, unless you just embrace general Order and go ham on cannons and copters. A host of cannons, a fleet of Gyrocopters, and big blocks of immovable dwarves daring the opponent to do something about it. But hey, go with what feels best.

[RaritanAnon]

25 minutes ago, flamingwalnut said:

If model price and "being the bad guys" rub ya the wrong way, why not convert the Chaos Dwarf stuff out of regular Dwarves? Most of the War Machines are just elaborate machines, and Bull Centaurs could very much be Dwarf Cavalry counts as. Again, requires a lot of work and such, so maybe not for you, but worth a look. (And yes, I am THAT kinda guy, I love a good conversion, so I almost always suggest that if it at all applies. lol)

Sadly, I wouldn't count on Dispossesed getting any love outside of Fyreslayer/Kharadron for allies, unless you just embrace general Order and go ham on cannons and copters. A host of cannons, a fleet of Gyrocopters, and big blocks of immovable dwarves daring the opponent to do something about it. But hey, go with what feels best.

Those are my options to be honest. Running Dispossessed and coming to terms with the fact I won't get a lot of support any time soon. Either do Copters or warmachines. Or Chaos Dwarfs. Who, even without a battletome, at least have good battalions and great special abilities. And also probably won't get support any time soon to be honest.

I did consider converting though. A lot of the Dispossessed models are pretty cool. Particularly, the Ironbreaker kit looks better than the FW Ironsworn kit, in my opinion. But I don't know how good of a converter I am to really get away with that. I guess it's on the table but probably not. If I do Chaos Dwarfs I'll likely just grab the FW kits and just bite the bullet plainly.

[FractalRain]

I think you'll be fine going with Dispossessed.  Converting models to keep a Duardin theme and use them as allies is a great idea too.  Also, keep in mind that having Dispossessed allows you to play them as Tempest's Eye or Greywater Fastness in the future if you want and as your models grow.   You can also add in other models as allies as you explore playstyles.  Come up with a nice army backstory and it'll inspire you to paint and help direct your army development over time too!

[RaritanAnon]

On 1/10/2018 at 8:30 AM, FractalRain said:

I think you'll be fine going with Dispossessed.  Converting models to keep a Duardin theme and use them as allies is a great idea too.  Also, keep in mind that having Dispossessed allows you to play them as Tempest's Eye or Greywater Fastness in the future if you want and as your models grow.   You can also add in other models as allies as you explore playstyles.  Come up with a nice army backstory and it'll inspire you to paint and help direct your army development over time too!

Wait Dispossessed can go into Greywater Fastness? 

[FractalRain]

4 minutes ago, RaritanAnon said:

Wait Dispossessed can go into Greywater Fastness? 

Well, that is what the poster mentioned, though honestly, I don't recall which of those cities have duardin!

[RaritanAnon]

7 minutes ago, FractalRain said:

Well, that is what the poster mentioned, though honestly, I don't recall which of those cities have duardin!

I double checked. It would have made a lot of sense for them to be in the artillery city, but they're not. Living City and Tempest's Eye seem to be the only two. 

Hm. Yeah, I think at the end of the day I would have rather been able to pick and choose both Fyreslayers and Dispossessed. I still don't quite understand why they had to split off and make them their own faction, and then only give them a handful of choices. It's a shame but they don't lend a lot of synergy to one another. 

For example, Ironbreakers and Hearthguard sort of fulfill the same roles. Same with Aurics and Irondrakes. I guess a good summary is that Fyreslayers are more offensively minded while Dispossessed and defensively minded.

I think that I have no idea which ones I like more. Would it be an awful idea to run Grand Alliance:Order and mix the factions?  Maybe a couple gyrobombers too? Honestly it's for my love of the models and dwarfs in general. I've never been a competitive try hard, but the Dispossessed Allegiance abilities are 100x weaker than Fyreslayers' rules and artifacts. It's just a damn shame. 

[RaritanAnon]

So I decided to go with Tempest's Eye because it has Dispossessed and Ironweld in it, and gives a bonus to my Copters and survivability in the first round. Plus its kinda cool to have a color scheme to follow. I kept making regular Dispossessed lists and just finding myself really unhappy with it every time because they dont have any real heavy hitters, and ally points don't allow me both war machines and Gyros. Plus, this leaves a lot of room for growth in the form of Steam Tanks, Organ Guns, more engineers, and other junk from Tempest's Eye if i want. I could even take some KO if I wanted to.

Allegiance: Tempest's Eye
Gunmaster (80)
Knight-Azyros (80)
- General
- Trait: Inspiring
- Artefact: Relic Blade
20 x Warriors (160)
- Double-handed Duardin Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (120)
- Great Axes & Shields
10 x Irondrakes (200)
Gyrocopters (80)
- Gun: Brimstone Gun
Gyrocopters (80)
- Gun: Brimstone Gun
Cannon (180)

Total: 980 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 62

The Knight provides a beacon of +1 to hit for everyone while he makes it up the board with the dwarf block, while the copters make for the flanks and take potshots at characters. Gunmaster sticks close to the Cannon and makes sure it can do its job. If I do run this list, and I might, I'll probably convert some models into the Gunmaster and the Knight as Dwarfs, and fluff the Tempest's Eye as my own Engineering Hold. It offers a lot more growth than standard Dorfs, and I still get the re-rolling battleshock from GA:Order if i'm so worried about it.

Edit: Made another list that may or may not be better, at the very least it's more dorfy? Let me know. 

Allegiance: Tempest's Eye
Knight-Azyros (80)
Warden King (120)
- General
- Trait: Legendary Fighter
- Artefact: Relic Blade
20 x Warriors (160)
- Double-handed Duardin Axes & Shields
10 x Longbeards (120)
- Axes or Hammers
20 x Thunderers (240)
Gyrocopters (80)
- Gun: Brimstone Gun
Gyrocopters (80)
- Gun: Brimstone Gun
Helblaster Volley Gun (120)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 72