Dealing with a super tough beatstick (such as high elf dragonlord) with Slaanesh

[themortalgod]

So I've been quit perplexed lately on how to counter a super powerful model like the High Elf Dragonlord with my Slaanesh army. I've faced him a couple of times now and he just tears a bloody path through my army. With Mystic Shield he is rocking a re-rollable 3+ save while the majority of a Slaanesh army is -1 rend at best, usually no rend for mortal units. On top of that his damage output is pretty high, especially with Hand of Glory on him. 

In my most recent game he plowed through 900pts of models barely taking any damage. At the end of the game he had 10 wounds left. I tried tar pitting him with a lord of slaanesh on daemonic mount general with the -3 to be hit combo but he still blew the poor fella up in a single round of combat. 

With my Tzeentch army, he is never a problem, I just spam MWs on him and he’s dead in a turn or 2, but with my Slaanesh list (both Daemons and Mortals, or a mix) I just have no answer to him. We have so few mortal wound sources and very few options for decent rend. 

The only model that could threaten him a bit is my Keeper, but even she is fighting an uphill battle where odds are against her. On top of that he usually runs quicksilver potion so even if my Keeper gets him in combat, she likely will be dead or near dead before she gets a chance to attack.

I’d love to hear any suggestions anyone might have? My Slaanesh army does ok most of the time, but as soon as I am facing something that has a really high armour save with a re-roll I feel like it is effectively invincible. (Dragonlord just being an example, he isn’t the only one in the game like this)

 

[Dark Prince]

I have vs’d my mates beastclaws and order draconis many times and they always wreck my army.  It’s just Slaanesh in general, they really struggle vs monsters.   None of the hero options are really viable (Daemon Princes are good but just don’t have the staying power, especially if he has quicksilver potion and arn’t worth the hero slot).  Failing that perhaps playing a ‘chaos soup’ army with some meaty units to bog him down whilst you play the objectives and avoid the dragon. 

[Squirrelmaster]

I can't offer much advice here, but "Devotee of Torment" can bypass the quicksilver potion with some careful positioning and luck. Might help your Keeper stand a better chance.

[themortalgod]

3 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

I can't offer much advice here, but "Devotee of Torment" can bypass the quicksilver potion with some careful positioning and luck. Might help your Keeper stand a better chance.

Yeah, I've considered that, or Breathtaker too. Though, Torment makes for a challenging positional requirement since  they have to fall for a trap being within 6" but not charging the keeper. Plus the bigger issue is the keeper really doesn't hit very hard, average maybe 4 or 5 wounds to him if she is attacking from full strength, then she promptly dies unless he gets unlucky. I'm really hoping in a future slaanesh battletomb the keeper gets a big buff to her warscroll. As it stands she is pretty weak for what you pay for her. 

6 hours ago, Dark Prince said:

I have vs’d my mates beastclaws and order draconis many times and they always wreck my army.  It’s just Slaanesh in general, they really struggle vs monsters.   None of the hero options are really viable (Daemon Princes are good but just don’t have the staying power, especially if he has quicksilver potion and arn’t worth the hero slot).  Failing that perhaps playing a ‘chaos soup’ army with some meaty units to bog him down whilst you play the objectives and avoid the dragon. 

Yeah, that sounds about right. Though I've been finding tarpitting him pretty hard. He chewed through 30 wounds of chaos knights like they were paper and the -3 to hit lord was trivial since his breath attack doesn't require a "hit" roll.  Not sure what chaos has that is tough enough and also fast enough to reliably get in combat with something like a dragon and hold him there. Though, that can work a bit better for other monsters like BCR who are slower and can't just fly over chafe. 

[Squirrelmaster]

1 hour ago, themortalgod said:

Yeah, I've considered that, or Breathtaker too. Though, Torment makes for a challenging positional requirement since  they have to fall for a trap being within 6" but not charging the keeper. Plus the bigger issue is the keeper really doesn't hit very hard, average maybe 4 or 5 wounds to him if she is attacking from full strength, then she promptly dies unless he gets unlucky. I'm really hoping in a future slaanesh battletomb the keeper gets a big buff to her warscroll. As it stands she is pretty weak for what you pay for her. 

It's easier if you move the Keeper to within 6" of the dragon during your turn, you can do that then pile-in to combat without charging. That also means you can get the Keeper's command ability, since it's your turn.

But, yeah. Positioning is going to be tricky. If you could get the positioning right, you could perhaps feed the dragon a more expendable unit to draw it within 3" of a heavy-hitter, ensuring that you get to strike first.

The lack of hitting power is also a problem, I agree. The forgeworld exalted keeper is an option but that's pricey. I suppose a soul grinder could help a bit. Or you could just summon in some help from the other gods — not an ideal solution I know but summoned units don't have to follow your army's allegiance.

[Dark Prince]

4 hours ago, themortalgod said:

Yeah, that sounds about right. Though I've been finding tarpitting him pretty hard. He chewed through 30 wounds of chaos knights like they were paper and the -3 to hit lord was trivial since his breath attack doesn't require a "hit" roll.  Not sure what chaos has that is tough enough and also fast enough to reliably get in combat with something like a dragon and hold him there. Though, that can work a bit better for other monsters like BCR who are slower and can't just fly over chafe. 

How many dragons does he take typically?  I’d say take a keeper or a slaanesh lord on mount (if you’re trying to stick with a cool Slaanesh theme), take archaon, and then take a harbinger of nurgle with some nurgle chaos warriors with shields and a chaos sorcerer.  This will give you a solid tar pit if you keep the warriors as a screen, then with archaon with double pile- you can kill his dragon.  Sayl the faithless could help with positioning too.

[themortalgod]

On 12/27/2017 at 12:59 PM, Dark Prince said:

How many dragons does he take typically?  I’d say take a keeper or a slaanesh lord on mount (if you’re trying to stick with a cool Slaanesh theme), take archaon, and then take a harbinger of nurgle with some nurgle chaos warriors with shields and a chaos sorcerer.  This will give you a solid tar pit if you keep the warriors as a screen, then with archaon with double pile- you can kill his dragon.  Sayl the faithless could help with positioning too.

Usually only 1, but often helped out by a pair of ice phoenixes. 

I'd prefer to focus on slaanesh solutions. Summoning nurgle as Slaanesh just feels dirty. Archaon can certainly get the job done but at almost 3x the price he had better. I'm not really a fan of mega monsters though. Plus, the army doesn't really feel "Slaanesh" when 50% of the pts go into an undivided general. Another option I have considered is Be'lakor to neuter the dragon for a turn but that is a lot of points for a very mediocre model otherwise.

Warriors do hold him up ok, but they are so slow that they can't really engage him unless he "lets" them. Though in my previous game he took out 15 warriors in 2 combat phases pretty trivially.  With Sayl that might work, but a 9" charge is pretty long. 

I suppose if I want to "ally" to solve the problem I could just spend 400pts on Tzeentch MW spam and that would erase the dragon easily enough.  Ideally, I'd like to focus on staying "in allegiance" though, but perhaps that isn't viable.  Could also summon horrors to just tie him up then split when he erases them I guess, that probably could tie him up longer than anything Slaanesh has for far fewer pts.  10 pink horrors would be at "least" 3 combat phases. Nothing Slaanesh has would last that long I think. Gotta make a 9" charge though as he would never run into them on purpose. 

Maybe fiends with hellstriders nearby could tarpit him for a while. Been thinking about that -2 to hit is pretty strong, though the -3 lord felt like paper against him so idk. A big unit of fiends has more wounds. Hard one to test though without investing in some very expensive, old models.  Though a unit of 6 fiends + 5 hellstriders would be more pts than the dragon to "maybe" tie him up for a turn or two. 

 

 

 

[Dark Prince]

You could also run an Exalted Daemon of Slanesh/ Keeper of Secrets as your general. With 2 units of hellstrider (-1 hit enrapturing banners up the front next to the keeper) and an allied chaos sorcerer.  Taking the ‘allure of slaanesh’ Command trait ( -1 to hit as well) this will give you a nasty ‘deathstar’ like counter.  With the sorcerers spell you will be re-rolling 1’s to hit and all wounds with a +2  save re-rolling 1’s (with mystic shield).   Using the keepers spell along with the ‘lash of despair’ artefact could be a great way to pump out mortal wounds in an aoe to deal with the phoenixs too.  

[Squirrelmaster]

1 hour ago, Dark Prince said:

Using the keepers spell along with the ‘lash of despair’ artefact could be a great way to pump out mortal wounds in an aoe to deal with the phoenixs too.  

Not really. A Phœnix is bravery 9, right? So you have a 1 in 6 chance of inflicting 3 wounds — that's half a MW per Phœnix, on average. A Dragonlord's bravery 8, so your odds go up to 5 in 18, which means an average of 5/6 or a MW on him. If those three are the only models in range, that's 11/6 MW total. You'd be better of with Arcane Bolt.

[The Traitor]

How about a unit of 10 Chaos Knights on the charge being buffed by a Slaanesh Lord on a daemonic mount and a regular chaos Lord on a daemonic mount (bit tricky to position, but doable)? That should be quite a punch to go through a monster, and they are quite hard too, specially with hellstriders and mystic shield. And they aren't a one trick pony, as they can kill quite a lot afterwards.

[themortalgod]

1 hour ago, The Traitor said:

How about a unit of 10 Chaos Knights on the charge being buffed by a Slaanesh Lord on a daemonic mount and a regular chaos Lord on a daemonic mount (bit tricky to position, but doable)? That should be quite a punch to go through a monster, and they are quite hard too, specially with hellstriders and mystic shield. And they aren't a one trick pony, as they can kill quite a lot afterwards.

Unfortunately they don't even come close to bringing enough damage. A unit of 10 knights assuming all 10 get in range, on the charge likely won't kill a dragon rider by the end of the game, even if all 10 never take any casualties. In my previous game the dragon lord erased 10 chaos knights in about 2 combat phases. Their weak rend is just too restrictive to threaten something with a 3+ re-rollable along with FnP saves. 

[The Traitor]

Even re-rolling hits and hitting twice due to the lords? Because that should be basically the punchiest Slaanesh can get, can't think of anything better. However Daemonette blobs might be worth a mention as they make enemies re-roll 6s to hit them because of their locus, so against units with bonuses to hit they can become very annoying... Other than that I can only think of bringing a huge model yourself, as the FW Exalted KoS as suggested, or combining a lot of smaller monsters like KoS, Manticore Lords or Daemon Princes. And I haven't tried them out but I think Gorebest Chariots get quite a punch in AoS?

[Edgecoc]

Daemon prince backed with knights. Daemon prince ability goes off before quicksilver potion does.

[themortalgod]

14 minutes ago, The Traitor said:

Even re-rolling hits and hitting twice due to the lords? Because that should be basically the punchiest Slaanesh can get, can't think of anything better. However Daemonette blobs might be worth a mention as they make enemies re-roll 6s to hit them because of their locus, so against units with bonuses to hit they can become very annoying... Other than that I can only think of bringing a huge model yourself, as the FW Exalted KoS as suggested, or combining a lot of smaller monsters like KoS, Manticore Lords or Daemon Princes. And I haven't tried them out but I think Gorebest Chariots get quite a punch in AoS?

You need to stack a lot of buffs to bring them even close to being able to threaten the dragonlord. For example 10 knights + Lord + Sorc for re-roll is 620pts to go up against a 360pt monster and still be at a disadvantage. 

10 Lance knights with lord buff deal about 7 damage with the lances and another 1 from horses if they charge and get all 10 in range (assuming they get a chance to swing before taking any casualties). (unlikely in a real situation, in a real situation probably more like 6 knights at best swinging unless your opponent is essentially suiciding the monster)

Then in future turns if they keep getting the buff from the lord they do about 2.5 wounds per turn total. (if all 10 knights are still alive)

If you have a sorcerer those numbers go up a bit, if the elf player has FnP effects it goes down a bit. If he is near a frostfire phoenix it goes down a lot. 

There are certainly ways Slaanesh can take a Dragon Lord down but it requires 2-3x the pts investment that the dragonlord player invested. If the player have 2 dragonlords, you are in big trouble. Also the mobility and flying of the dragon means that it is much harder for the Slaanesh player to be the one getting the charge which means you often are engaging in a weakened state.

[The Traitor]

Well, every army has a counter right? It seems Slaanesh one is big resilient monsters... In such occasions play to the objectives the best you can, you also should have very mobile units in the form of seekers, fiends, chariots, hellstriders, etc... and can even throw the Masque to slow him down, then just avoid him as much as possible and try to kill everything else while scoring as much as you can. At least that's how deathstars were best managed in 7th edition of 40k if you couldn't destroy them...

[cranect]

They aren't slaanesh but you could ally in a jabberslythe or 2 for 120 points each. They can mess up a lot of hard hitting units fairly reliably.

[themortalgod]

24 minutes ago, cranect said:

They aren't slaanesh but you could ally in a jabberslythe or 2 for 120 points each. They can mess up a lot of hard hitting units fairly reliably.

Oh wow, those things are narly. I want one!  Unfortunately GW is sold out of em, and I think they have been for a while, I wonder what alternative model I could use.  

The spurting bile blood rule triggers "after" armor saves, but before damage, right? A 6 damage weapon doesn't let me roll 6 times, right?

[Squirrelmaster]

15 hours ago, themortalgod said:

Oh wow, those things are narly. I want one!  Unfortunately GW is sold out of em, and I think they have been for a while, I wonder what alternative model I could use.  

The spurting bile blood rule triggers "after" armor saves, but before damage, right? A 6 damage weapon doesn't let me roll 6 times, right?

After damage, you would get 6 rolls.

[themortalgod]

2 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

After damage, you would get 6 rolls.

Is there reference to that anywhere? I thought a wound was defined as unsaved but before damage but I've never seen any official clarification?

[Squirrelmaster]

The core rules state that a successful hit roll "scores a hit", a successful wound roll "causes damage", a failed save means "the attack is successful", and then determining damage tells you how many "wounds" a "successful attack inflicts".

It's counter-intuitive because it means a "Wound Roll" using the "To Wound" characteristic, doesn't actually inflict wounds, but it is spelled out pretty clearly, and backed up by how "special saves" (such as Death's "Deathless Minion" rule) have been FAQ'd to work.

[themortalgod]

11 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

The core rules state that a successful hit roll "scores a hit", a successful wound roll "causes damage", a failed save means "the attack is successful", and then determining damage tells you how many "wounds" a "successful attack inflicts".

It's counter-intuitive because it means a "Wound Roll" using the "To Wound" characteristic, doesn't actually inflict wounds, but it is spelled out pretty clearly, and backed up by how "special saves" (such as Death's "Deathless Minion" rule) have been FAQ'd to work.

Ah, in that case what about overkill? Since all of a model's attacks happen simultaneously what if they do say 24 wounds in one phase to the Jabberslythe? Do I roll 24 times? or just up to the maximum number of wounds the monster can suffer before it dies. (12 at full health)

[Squirrelmaster]

10 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

Ah, in that case what about overkill? Since all of a model's attacks happen simultaneously what if they do say 24 wounds in one phase to the Jabberslythe? Do I roll 24 times? or just up to the maximum number of wounds the monster can suffer before it dies. (12 at full health)

Hmm… rules-as-written I would say 24, but it's a little open to interpretation, and 12 sounds more intuitive to me. There's an FAQ to say that "suffered" means allocated and not saved, but the Jabberslythe rule talks about "inflicted". RAW it seems wounds are "inflicted", then "allocated", then "suffered". Excess wounds are still "inflicted", they just can't be "allocated", because there's nothing left to allocate them to.

[Marc Wilson]

Well laid out @Squirrelmaster

[Lucio]

I'd look at a Soul Grinder as the counter, add in the command ability from the Lord of Slaanesh or the Keeper of Secrets. It's worth it for the Caught in the Claw ability alone.

[themortalgod]

7 minutes ago, Lucio said:

I'd look at a Soul Grinder as the counter, add in the command ability from the Lord of Slaanesh or the Keeper of Secrets. It's worth it for the Caught in the Claw ability alone.

I'd say that might work if you get lucky, but is just too low odds to count on. The Caught in the Claw ability has about an 8.3% chance of going off. (50% chance to hit, then a 1/6 chance to trigger). Most of the time the dragon will rip the soul grinder to bits but every once in a while the grinder will get lucky and win.