Malign Portents

[HorticulusTGA]

1 minute ago, Nullius said:

Haha maybe. I just took it as their attentions being fleeting. They were gone as quickly as they’d arrived. That sort of thing. Afteral the mortal realms are a mere bauble to the gods of chaos.

Hehehe you'll see, Nagahs is all : "the laughter ceased ... and Death smiled"  

[shinros]

1 minute ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Yes indeed ! Also, the process described here is maybe not the same for all Slann's servants. 

I liked it because it was more "grounded" than the BT's fluff, and was based upon the End Time lore of Lizardmen on flying pyramids.

Anyway I really like the Serphon (or maybe more the Slann Starmasters) because they are a mysterious race from space (also from the past) ; they have a very alien feel to them, like the Engineer of, well, the Aliens movies (or the Scientology / pop culture conceptions of how life came to earth : via extraterrestrial life forms). 

As a certain lore youtuber said the seraphon battle tome becomes more interesting as more information is revealed about them.

[Nullius]

4 minutes ago, shinros said:

Personally what I took from our old dwarf is that no one understands how the process works. 

We have never seen inside the temple ships, in the battle tome seraphon are organised into constellations many theorised(I personally believed and I recall bottle thought this as well) that they did not live in "actual" stars but the constellations were essentially temple ships or formations. What the story did is clarify.

Essentially they still live in "space" who knows the slaan might of conjured the pools from memory. The whole point is that we don't really understand the process of how they are born or what the seraphon truly are. 

Maybe the Seraphon we have seen in the mortal realms thus far are mere astral projections of the Slaan broadcast from space.  Shadows and memories of a world that was. Perhaps the real Seraphon have yet to arrive in person. Maybe that’s what this story presages. Would also give them leeway to have the old models represent “astral” Seraphon, while eventually releasing a new Seraphon range of star-hopping high-tech space lizards.

[HorticulusTGA]

Just now, shinros said:

As a certain lore youtuber said the seraphon battle tome becomes more interesting as more information is revealed about them.

Exactly ! Did you try to re-read the Realmgate Wars book about Alarielle now that we can "track" the story on the Eversrping Swath map (from last WD) ? It's really cool  !

(What lore youtouber please ? )

[shinros]

1 minute ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Exactly ! Did you try to re-read the Realmgate Wars book about Alarielle now that we can "track" the story on the Eversrping Swath map (from last WD) ? It's really cool  !

(What lore youtouber please ? )

I assume you know him, 2+tough he made a video for them about a year ago. 

[Nullius]

2 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Hehehe you'll see, Nagahs is all : "the laughter ceased ... and Death smiled"  

Well in either case, I think we can safely say (happily in my case, as a proud owner of a meticulously painted and increasingly massive death army) that Death is in as ascendancy. I think we will see multiple death releases before the end, much like chaos had after the initial release of AOS (chaos being the main antagonist in 1st edition). The good money says a massive Vampire army is coming eventually. Afterall the only allegiances in Legions of Nagash were Nighthaunts and...Soulblight. ???

[PJetski]

4 hours ago, HorticulusTGA said:

@BrownDog

1. It would fit with the new fluff. They are called down from the stars, i.e. from their space ships. See the artworks I mentioned above, representing just that. 

2. That's old fluff now : today's story states otherwise : https://malignportents.com/story/dying-star/

"There was a deep grinding sound before the thunderous roar of rushing liquid. The golden wheels began to spin, and water gushed out in frothing torrents. Writhing shapes could be seen within the deluge, the protean forms from which the armies of the stars would grow.

The warm air became humid, and then swelteringly hot. Maq’uat watched the pool bubble and boil with new life. 

A chorus of shrill screams filled the air, frenzied and agonised, spilling forth from half-formed mouths. Blood stained the waters."

Also, as we all know lex posterior derogat priori  IMO it's a proper retcon (well, as @amysrevenge said above, AOS yourdudeism let you have place for both types of Seraphon anyway  )

Yes, "water".

Fermented in a temple space ship flying through the void between realities. A temple-ship created, piloted, and powered by the will of frog wizard older than time with the powers of a god.

Yup, ordinary water.

[HorticulusTGA]

1 minute ago, PJetski said:

Yes, "water".

Fermented in a temple space ship flying through the void between realities. A temple-ship created, piloted, and powered by the will of frog wizard older than time with the powers of a god.

Yup, ordinary water.

Yeah.... It's Warhammer Age of Sigmar  

The entire description of the Temple-ship of Aximahotl is really good !

[Nullius]

6 minutes ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Yeah.... It's Warhammer Age of Sigmar  

The entire description of the Temple-ship of Aximahotl is really good !

Yeah I love it. AOS and 40k now have the same cosmic sense of scale, wonder, and horror now and I think that’s a good thing. 

[sandlemad]

1 hour ago, Nullius said:

Speaking of the Soul Wars novel, I also really liked the depiction of the direct attention of the Chaos gods. They were recognizably the three (currently at large) gods of chaos, but they were also horrifying, incomprehensible lovecraftian horrors from beyond the cosmos. Enormous beyond any concept of size and all gibberring, bellowing, screeching lunatics. Not gods at all in the sense of Sigmar or Nagash, but rather chaos gods as we know them from 40k. Something horrifying and beyond our imagination. 

It's great and a fairly rare depiction of that kind. Reynolds has a knack for it.

It also looks cool as hell for Nagash. Here's someone that can dare to look the chaos gods in the (metaphorical, incomprehensible) face, not as an equal but as someone who can hurt them. Someone who is gunning for them, slowly and meticulously: "I spread it over centuries, and time is on my side." Not from a defiance born of faith in... whatever, but from monumental, inexhaustible and at least partially justified arrogance. For all that the stuff about him being a god or close to a god is also interesting, he's very human in this regard, just with most of the limitations of time and ability stripped away.

I've said it before but in the scale of his plans, his drive, his lack of doubt and his willingness to use people,  Nagash feels much closer to the Emperor of 30k than Sigmar is.

EDIT: But also Doctor Doom, for his monstrous confidence and villainous flair.?

[shinros]

2 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

It's great and a fairly rare depiction of that kind. Reynolds has a knack for it.

It also looks cool as hell for Nagash. Here's someone that can dare to look the chaos gods in the (metaphorical, incomprehensible) face, not as an equal but as someone who can hurt them. Someone who is gunning for them, slowly and meticulously: "I spread it over centuries, and time is on my side." Not from a defiance born of faith in... whatever, but from monumental, inexhaustible and at least partially justified arrogance. For all that the stuff about him being a god or close to a god is also interesting, he's very human in this regard, just with most of the limitations of time and ability stripped away.

I've said it before but in the scale of his plans, his drive, his lack of doubt and his willingness to use people,  Nagash feels much closer to the Emperor of 30k than Sigmar is.

This post is on point, did you just go inside my head and rummage through it?  

[HorticulusTGA]

Haha, I also thought about that scene when the Chaos Gods stole the Primarchs, or when they try to bargain with mortals (like Lorgar or the Emperor/Horus on Molech), when reading the opening of Soul Wars  

As @Nullius said above, what I love with almost all GW setting is their cosmic scale, and the lovecaftian theme of cosmic horrors the Ruinous Powers embody so well. Reynolds is really good at transcribing that ; I literally can't wait to read the 400+ others pages of Soul Wars ! (And the Malign Sorcery and Core book fluff, obviously - instead of working my last exams  )

[Kaleb Daark]

4 hours ago, Nullius said:

But in The End Times we found out The Green Knight was  King not-Aurthur and The Lady of the Lake was actually Lileath, the elven godess of the moon and the eventual creator of the Mortal Realms. 

No... she was a lying tart who sold them down the river.  Burn her and all her pointy eared wretched kind.

[Kamose]

5 hours ago, xking said:

If they remove the daemon keyword, then I will believe you.

Yeah, that's the sticking point for me as well. ?

I have no problems with Seraphon coming from spawning pools (summoning circles in a sense ?), or being able to live permanent lives (think of them as balloons of magic; the Slann tie them off so to speak and 'poof' permanent seraphon ?), or them having personalities (the Slann are godlike so they should have no trouble summoning exact, perfect, and specific individuals with continuous memories of their lives when summoned ?). But it does say they are Daemons in their keywords and Daemons in Warhammer are magical in nature not material i.e. flesh and blood.

One thing for the pro-seraphon are flesh and blood camp; the MP story does mention blood in the spawning pool though it doesn't describe the blood in detail.  Hmmmm, mysterious...

Are there any examples of models with both the Daemon and Mortal keyboards?  Probably, so I could see seraphon being a special example of that kind of being. Educate me! ?

P.S. Another good look into the seraphon mind is in the Skaven: Pestilens novel. There are a couple of Saurus characters and a Skink starpriest we get to know. We get a look into how they view mortals and interact with them. There's even a peek into a Slann's mind when it telepathically communicates with a Stormcast. Higly recommend! ?

[Kamose]

Another idea just hit me. This could just be a prelude to them removing the Daemon keyword from Seraphon in their next battltome whenever that is. Archaeotech dinosaurs beaming down from space ships is no less high fantasy than magic, immortal frogs summoning long dead "daemons of order" from their memories.

Other than the Slann's warscroll spell, does being an Order Daemon matter anywhere in the Seraphon rules? 

[HorticulusTGA]

5 minutes ago, Kamose said:

Another idea just hit me. This could just be a prelude to them removing the Daemon keyword from Seraphon in their next battltome whenever that is. Archaeotech dinosaurs beaming down from space ships is no less high fantasy than magic, immortal frogs summoning long dead "daemons of order" from their memories.

Other than the Slann's warscroll spell, does being an Order Daemon matter anywhere in the Seraphon rules? 

That's exactly what I am thinking !

About the keyword thing, let's wait AOS2, the GHB2018 and the errata  

[Nullius]

2 hours ago, sandlemad said:

 

EDIT: But also Doctor Doom, for his monstrous confidence and villainous flair.?

Not to mention his peerless fashion sense and love of  villainous capes. 

[Rogue Explorator]

3 hours ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Yes indeed ! Also, the process described here is maybe not the same for all Slann's servants. 

I liked it because it was more "grounded" than the BT's fluff, and was based upon the End Time lore of Lizardmen on flying pyramids.

Anyway I really like the Serphon (or maybe more the Slann Starmasters) because they are a mysterious race from space (also from the past) ; they have a very alien feel to them, like the Engineer of, well, the Aliens movies (or the Scientology / pop culture conceptions of how life came to earth : via extraterrestrial life forms). 

3 hours ago, HorticulusTGA said:

Haha, I also thought about that scene when the Chaos Gods stole the Primarchs, or when they try to bargain with mortals (like Lorgar or the Emperor/Horus on Molech), when reading the opening of Soul Wars  

As @Nullius said above, what I love with almost all GW setting is their cosmic scale, and the lovecaftian theme of cosmic horrors the Ruinous Powers embody so well. Reynolds is really good at transcribing that ; I literally can't wait to read the 400+ others pages of Soul Wars ! (And the Malign Sorcery and Core book fluff, obviously - instead of working my last exams  )

I really think it is not just the Chaos gods represent cosmic horror, there is actually quite a bit of it to the Seraphon (and Lizardmen before them).

The Chaos gods are that Cthullu, Nyarlothep and Hastur style cosmic horror. The  actively malevolent, plays with mortals and devours them kind of cosmic horror. But they are also very blatant, so much so that all the monstrous hordes actually detract from their cosmic horror element.

The Slann are a far more subtle and not actively malvolent, sort of like Lovecrafts Old Ones. Yes, they are doing something we would consider good, in WHFB they where the world protectors and in AoS they are actually guys with a plan meant to beat Chaos (yes, Nagash also has one, but I think beating Chaos is just icing on the cake of becoming the greatest being). But they are utterly uncaring, without empathy and beyond the battle scale insanely powerful.

In WHFB they where constantly geoformic the world, resulting in earthquakes, tsunamis, vulcanic erruptions, etc. They hade an enormous bodycount of people that never even knew who they where. They propably did more to pull down the Dwarven Kingdoms than any of the Dwarves grudge laden foes. And it was all just the side effect of some plan even the Slann did not fully understand or completely remember anymore.

Now we are in AoS. So far, we have seen the Slann doing nice and helpful things. But if anything, they have become more alien, powerful, sharper and even more unfathomable. And this time they have a grand plan to beat Chaos they actually understand and have formulated themself. Remember, these guys might be handy in a battle, but it is off the battlefield, when they have the time and quiet to enact great rituals, where they really shine. They will not care one bit about collateral and remove anything and anyone in their way. To me there is no doubt that the Slanns great plan could result in just as much havoc as Nagash has so far wreaked, except when they do it, it will not be as easy to track.

 

Cosmic horror is founded on the terror about how vast the universe is and consequently how insignificant humanity and the individual seems against that. It is all about the idea of unfathomable, overpowering beings that can whipe out a person, a town or an entire world on any step they take without even noticing. The Slann actually fit that idea quite well

[TheOtherJosh]

15 minutes ago, Rogue Explorator said:

The Slann are a far more subtle and not actively malvolent, sort of like Lovecrafts Old Ones. [...] But they are utterly uncaring, without empathy and beyond the battle scale insanely powerful.

"The Call of Chaos: Lord of the Cosmic Gate" by Gav Thorpe was an excellently explicit example of their utter uncaring nature for those who are not Seraphon. It's from early in the AoS transition from WHFB (2015).

If you haven't had an opportunity to read it I would highly recommend it.

[Rogue Explorator]

3 hours ago, Kamose said:

Yeah, that's the sticking point for me as well. ?

I have no problems with Seraphon coming from spawning pools (summoning circles in a sense ?), or being able to live permanent lives (think of them as balloons of magic; the Slann tie them off so to speak and 'poof' permanent seraphon ?), or them having personalities (the Slann are godlike so they should have no trouble summoning exact, perfect, and specific individuals with continuous memories of their lives when summoned ?). But it does say they are Daemons in their keywords and Daemons in Warhammer are magical in nature not material i.e. flesh and blood.

One thing for the pro-seraphon are flesh and blood camp; the MP story does mention blood in the spawning pool though it doesn't describe the blood in detail.  Hmmmm, mysterious...

Are there any examples of models with both the Daemon and Mortal keyboards?  Probably, so I could see seraphon being a special example of that kind of being. Educate me! ?

P.S. Another good look into the seraphon mind is in the Skaven: Pestilens novel. There are a couple of Saurus characters and a Skink starpriest we get to know. We get a look into how they view mortals and interact with them. There's even a peek into a Slann's mind when it telepathically communicates with a Stormcast. Higly recommend! ?

After rereading the BT, I think they are both at the same time.

They are in many ways exactly as they where. They have the same instincts and quirks as Lizardmen, the thought processes of the Skink in Dying Star could just as well have been those of one in the World-That-Was. They have also the same anatomy, flesh, bone, muscle, blood and sinew, it all there. Their day to day life among the stars may be the same as  it was in a Lustrian Temple City, maybe even up to foraging and hunting for food.

One the other hand, they are made from the stuff of the stars. Their blood is made of starlight, their meat and bones as much a product of Azyr as their equipment. Their matter can be transported across limiltess space by but a thought of the Slann. Sometimes they fade after the loss of their master, sometimes they might not (the BT has instances of both). They are clearly a step more supernatural than even the Stormcast.

 

The big question remaining is that of their mortality. Eternity Wardens, according to the BT, can be slain over and over again, the Slann can remake them each time. But that seems to be specific to them. Sunbloods, Oldbloods and Scar Veterans are the veterans of endless battle, this could not be what makes them special if all Seraphon where functionally immortal. Now in Dying Star we learn that upcoming conflict necessitates a new spawning, implying further that Seraphon that die in the Mortal Realms do so for real. So as far as being supernatural goes, they are a step down from the daemons of Chaos, that are functionally immortal.

 

There is a lot still uncertain about Seraphon. But what should  clear by now is that the Seraphon are real, in a sense. They are not, as many have thought, or rather feared, mere memory given temporary form, magical constructs whose mind is just a Slanns fabrication, "imaginary friends" to Slann, or anything like that. They are the Lizardmen we know and love, just more magical.

[Kamose]

7 minutes ago, Rogue Explorator said:

Now in Dying Star we learn that upcoming conflict necessitates a new spawning, implying further that Seraphon that die in the Mortal Realms do so for real.

Its like a saying we have here in the states. "If you die in Canada, you die in real life."

'nods sagely'

?

[Rogue Explorator]

12 minutes ago, Kamose said:

Its like a saying we have here in the states. "If you die in Canada, you die in real life."

'nods sagely'

?

Ok, so that could have been worded a bit better.

But I think my meaning was clear:

Kill some (not Eternity Warden) Seraphon and they are gone for good.

Kill some deamons and they are back in the Realm of Chaos and soon stand in line for the next incusion.

[TheOtherJosh]

17 minutes ago, Rogue Explorator said:

Ok, so that could have been worded a bit better.

But I think my meaning was clear:

Kill some (not Eternity Warden) Seraphon and they are gone for good.

Kill some deamons and they are back in the Realm of Chaos and soon stand in line for the next incusion.

It isn’t impossible that the pools themselves are merely a creation agent and that they are manifested through the memories of the Slann.

Like Chaos Daemons being brought into being through the will of their chaos patron god ... the Daemons that are Seraphon may actually be the fact same Seraphon that existed previously, and they merely need form?

[Kamose]

1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:

It isn’t impossible that the pools themselves are merely a creation agent and that they are manifested through the memories of the Slann.

Like Chaos Daemons being brought into being through the will of their chaos patron god ... the Daemons that are Seraphon may actually be the fact same Seraphon that existed previously, and they merely need form?

Those were my thoughts exactly! But summoning circles or actual physical spawning pools, I'm just happy to get more Seraphon lore and see where they take it!

[MacDuff]

I'm hung up on the idea of small Space Temple Ships (Land Raider size). Sure, the Seraphon don't really need them for transport, but maybe reinforcements from them can 'flow' onto the battlefield?