Help with 2k list

[Cvaldor]

Hey guys, just started playing aos few weeks ago with a few games under my belt.  Playing first tournament for fun and wanting some input on a list.  Doing this on my mobile so excuse the crappy format of the list I type below:

Heroes:

Mega boss on Mawkrusha

Warchanter

Weirdnob shaman

Battleline:

1x20 ardboys

1x10 brutes

1x5 brutes

1×3 Gore gruntas 

1 iron skull boyz

Allies:

2 grot rock lobbers

1980 points

 

My dilemma is I can get rid of iron skull boyz freeing up 80 pts and change the 1x5 brutes for another 1x3 gore gruntas freeing up another 40 ppints and add a Mega boss on foot with the left over points of 20 combined with other 120.

  So basically looking for opinion on changing brutes to GG and trading iron skull boyz for Mega boss on foot.

 

Thanks in advance

[Malakree]

First point https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder/ use that to generate your lists. ? in the top left will let you have a long or short version. Super useful.

Preamble/Random Waffle

Personal opinion, drop the 5 brutes for 180, spend 90 of that on getting the extra 10 Ardboys. If you are going to 20, at 2x180, you really need to justify not going to 30, for 1x90, imo.

After that it leaves you with 110 points. if you include the 80 you could squeeze from the Ironskull boys thats 190. Another unit of GG's is 140, for 50 spare. Drop the Weirdnob for a grot shaman to free up another 40 then add in a second warchanter for something like.

Quote

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)
- Allies

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
- Ironjawz Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Ironjawz Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Ironjawz Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Ironjawz Battleline

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
- Allies
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
- Allies

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 280 / 400

The other option is to double down on the brutes. Drop 10 Ardboyz to grab a second block of 10. In this setup dropping the weirdnob to a grot is way more obvious and frees up the spare points required to turn your Ironskullz into GG's.

 

Quote

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)
- Allies

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
- Allies
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
- Allies

 

Spoiler

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- Ironjawz Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Ironjawz Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Ironjawz Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Ironjawz Battleline

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 280 / 400

Spoiler

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Ironjawz Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Ironjawz Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Ironjawz Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Ironjawz Battleline

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 280 / 400

The only issue with the second list is that with 2 blocks of brutes and so few heroes you really want the Ironfist. You could drop the final 10 Ardboyz and split the GG's to give the second part of this list rather than the first if you wanted the mobility.

Answering your Question.

I realise after typing all of this that it's not actually answered your question. So to do so.

1. Yes drop the 5 brutes, at 2k they are very rarely useful.
2. Ironskullz boys are fillers, generally a second warchanter would be preferable.
3. The Megaboss on Foot is really bad at 2k, there's just to many ways floating round to obliterate his slow fat ass that at 1k aren't there.
4. 3 extra GG's over the Footboss every time. I've developed a serious love for them especially in units of 6.

As a result I would end up with

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
20 x Orruk Ardboys (360)
- Ironjawz Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Ironjawz Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Ironjawz Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Ironjawz Battleline

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
- Allies
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
- Allies

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 200 / 400

Essentially doing the same trades you suggested but instead of the footboss grabbing another 3 GG's to give you a unit of 6 as well as the 2nd unit of 3. 

Your unit of 3 GG's then becomes the equivalent of medium cav, you use it to break weak defensive points and the like. On the other hand your unit of 6 is a proper shock cav unit, even a heavily defended point will get mauled by it. It also gives you another target for the warchanter buff as well as something which can keep up with the MK.

Other Stuff

Ask yourself seriously what you want that unit of 20 Ardboyz to do, generally they will fill one of two roles. If you want them to act as a tarpit and push forward to contest objectives or hold up parts of the enemy line then SERIOUSLY consider having the extra 10. It is shameless self promotion but go read this post I made on them, hopefully it gives you an idea of why I would always suggested 30 over 20.

If on the other hand you want them to hang back and protect/hold points, you might want to take them as 2 blocks of 10. This allows them to guard two objectives or lock up two choke points. For a defensive role you're subjecting them to a whole bunch of much more painful stuff and allowing your opponent to potentially blow you away with battleshock.

Honestly 1x20 is an expensive way to do neither of those roles as well as splitting or adding.

[Cvaldor]

Solid write up thank you!  Will definitely make changes I just wish I had a grot shaman:(

[Malakree]

21 minutes ago, Cvaldor said:

Solid write up thank you!  Will definitely make changes I just wish I had a grot shaman:(

Aye it's one of the things I grabbed early for options. Same with the Wurrgog Prophet, at 140 points he's WAY better than a foot boss.

Check out the stickied thread there's a huge allies post in there which is useful on that front. The gitmob vs Moonclan is an intresting choice ?

[Cvaldor]

So after some time going over your post a few times... I'm left with the decision of 2×10 brutes or 1x10 brutes and 1x30 ardboys.  I feel like 2x10 brutes and 2x3/1x6 GG leaves me with little field presence.  After reading your post on ardboys weapons I'm finding it hard to get rid of 30 models for 10 brutes.

[Malakree]

The 10 brutes and a warchanter is the killy option.

Part of the reason I wrote that post as I did was because the brutes are accepted as amazing while the ardboyz are a relatively new thing with the gbh 2017. I think the good players are still running more blocks of brutes because they let you apply more power to a smaller area.

Personally I originally went with 30/10/6 so that I could use and experience each of the options. As a new player myself I wanted that experience more than the power gained from "netdecking".

[Cvaldor]

@Malakree I read in one of @Chris Tomlin's posts that he was experimenting running without Ironfist.  I don't remember where it was at but in your experience how will this fare up?

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Gitmob Grot Shaman (80)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Ironjawz Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Ironjawz Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
- Ironjawz Battleline

Units
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)

War Machines
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)

Total: 1980 / 2000

 

So it's identical to your second list you created minus Ironfist.  In its place is another WC to buff the 2nd brick of brutes or GG and Ironskulls boyz as extra fodder or to sit back and protect the rock lobbers.

 

I don't have more than six GG so adding a 1x3 unit of GG isn't feasible at the moment and have a small tournament this saturday.  Otherwise I would love to skip the 2nd WC/Ironskull boyz and add the 1x3 GG.

[Malakree]

It should be solid. @Chris Tomlin and @Sangfroid are both amazingly good IJ players, probably the best in the world atm, which I definitely am not.

No idea about the ironskullz boys as I've not used them but they are amazing for exactly that kind of points filling. Your list could totally fit a 3rd Warchanter if you wanted instead.

Try it and give us a battlerep afterwards ? I know that personally my lack of experience plays a much bigger role than my list ? just have it and have fun.

Waaagh! 

Again consider if you want a gitmob or a moonclan shaman, both have their own advantages. A greenskinz great shaman also fits into your list, lots of wizard option thanks to the allies. It's one of the huge books gbh 2017 brought us!

[Cvaldor]

Ok so batrap on tourny this past saturday.  Ended up going with this list:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)
Ironfist (160)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 132
 

Was hesitant to run a 1x6 block of GGs due to what I felt was a lack of field presence.  My apologies as this was my first tourny and I am newer to AoS so some unit names/spelling might be off.

 

TLDR: Went 1W-2L, placed 8th out of 12.  Rock lobbers and Ironfist not really useful until third game.

Round 1 vs Death. Scorched earth. 

Opponent was running three large bricks of skellies, three heroes (I don't know/remember which ones but they were small foot sloggers, not Nagash or any of the mortarchs) and a max unit of black knights.  I don't recall his battalion but he pretty much put everything on the board in two or three deployments.  My Ironfist went down after one of his heroes so I was unable to adjust to his black knights being placed on the border of his deployment towards mine spread in one thin line.  I knew he was going to charge me from the get go and try and tie me up with that line as it reached across half the board.  He picked initiative and sure enough charged me with the blackknights and tied up both of my brute units.  His awesome roles and my horrible saves meant one of my brute units was devastated and after battle shock they were almost all gone.  His skellies bumped up and that was end of his round.  

On my round, my maw krusha moved up along with the brutes and wiped out his blacknights.  GGs ran up the sides and stayed at objectives.  Rock lobbers killed maybe 2-3 skellies.  Pretty much end of my round.

On turn two, his skellie bricks (one on each side of map) moved up towards my objectives as he kept his heroes on his.  Unfortunately 3 GGs versus full unit of skellies didn't end well.  Same results on both of my edge objectives as this skellies and GGs battled it out and he eventually won with his mass numbers and scorched my objectives.  I charged his middle objective and killed one of his support heroes and grave guard (with some help from rock lobbers).  The more intact unit of brutes moved up in the hopes of clearing his middle objective.  His middle unit of skellies lived with about half strength.  The remaining heroes and skellies ended up poking the MK to death and brutes fell shortly after in turn three.

I really felt my lack of board presence in this fight.  After the first round and one of my units being devastated I couldn't compete against that many enemy models from scorching my objectives.  Ironfist and rock lobbers really felt like a drag and not much of a help.

0W-1L

Round 2 vs Tzeentch - Duality of death

I've never played against Tzeentch before but have heard of the fabled Tzaangors.  My opponent had a max unit of them, lord of change, pink horrors, three wizards (only recall the name of the gaunt summoner) a shrine, little flame guys (brimstone?) and a unit of chaos warriors.  I had split my forces in half, placing a unit of brutes and GGs on the left flank and the remainder in the middle, slightly towards the right side objective.  I grabbed initiative hoping my goblin shaman, and rock lobbers could put in work and whittle down the Tzaangors to take away their bonus.  Rock lobbers missed their shots, and shaman killed a whopping one model.  Brutes moved up but failed ravager roll and Ironclad was something dismal like a 1-2 roll.  He left his casters open in the back with no bubble wrap so I moved my MK up to start threatening them and to support the brute unit against tzaangors.  The other brute unit, GG, and warchanter shifted right to capture the right objective which they did and held until the end.  

This match can quickly be summarized instead of a play by play.  The dice gods were not with me and rock lobbers did pretty much nothing.  Brutes against Tzaangors didn't fare well.  My MK charged his lord of change and put some wounds on him but after the brutes were mopped up and his gaunt summoner trying the (don't recall name of spell) delete a unit if the roll is higher than bravery, my MK switched targets and killed the gaunt summoner.  Eventually the tzaangors and heroes killed the MK and started piling towards the right objective and ended up tabling me.

Same as last game, my dice rolls were horrendous, rock lobbers did close to nothing and Ironfist helped in the beginning but still didn't feel its worth.  My lack of board presence was definitely felt again. 0W-2L

Round 3 vs Stormcast - Starfall

Stormcast player was running a mix of retributors, lord castellant on foot and hound, lord aquilor, hunters, neave blacktalon, prosecutors, two units of libs, and two units of raptors.   He had his retributors, and prosecutor setup for deepstrike, and his vanguard chamber units in pursuit.  On the field he had his two units of libs and his LC.  I gave him initiative.  He kept his reserves off the table on his round and slowly moved his units up that were on the board.  He placed his raptors, lord aquilor, and neave on the bottom right side of my edge of the map.  On my turn Ironfist and ravager actually kicked in and I really saw their worth here as my brute units quickly moved up the field.  My rock lobbers finally had decent rolls and this game I actually rolled a few sixes which gave them an extra shot.  They made quick work of one unit of raptors along with my unit of GGs wrapping up both of his raptor units.  Not sure why he kept his retributors off the board so long but he placed his prosecutors down which were quickly gobbled up by my other unit of GGs.  My MK ended up charging his LC and killed him and one brute unit devastated the liberator unit.  Once the objectives started coming down I left my MK in his field and started fighting his retributors he finally brought down towards end of game.  Towards the end I started to realize he was saving his retributors for the objectives but by then, both of my brute units captured and defended the objectives.  By turn 5 all he had left was the lord aquilor, a unit of retributors that lost 1-2 to my rock lobbers as they made their way to an objective, and his unit of hunters.  My first major of the day and last game sadly. 1W-2L.

I ended up placing 8th out of 12.  I felt pretty good considering I had very few 2k point games under my belt prior to the tournament.  I had never played against death, tzeentch or stormcast before.  I did my fair share of reading and knew to stay away from tzaangors and to be wary of stormcast and their deepstrike and in pursuit units.  I'm likely going to modify my list to make up for my feel of lack of presence on the board:

Remove rock lobbers and ironfist along with one unit of brutes/GG for the below list.  My thought process is keep the arrowboyz behind the ardboys to make up for lack of shooting and or use them to sit on objectives.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
30 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (360)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 191
 

[Malakree]

So a couple of comments on a few things mainly to do with the rock lobbas. First point is on deployment though.

• Deployment is probably one of the hardest parts of the game and one of the most crucial. It's hard to learn but important, it also looks like you picked some of it up yourself.
• First game deployment really tells the story of putting things down in the right order. Drop the Ironfist last or, if you know you can't win the race, drop it as individual units.
• Again, this is tips and advice, I know how hard deployment is, I still get it very wrong a lot.

Rock lobbas

• As a point, any 6+ type rolls are done after modifiers. So if you're shooting a unit of 10+ then the rock lobbas get the extra shot on a 5 or 6, not just a 6.
• Counter intuitively the rock lobbas aren't there to shoot at large blocks of chaff most of the time.
• Use them to target down key parts of the enemy army, normally they are for sniping heroes. 
• Ignoring LoS, -2 rend and 3 damage means they will rip most heroes on foot apart.
• Game 1 is a great example of this, have the rock lobbas target the enemy heroes, they don't heal back and they provide his 6++ save.

Can't comment on the arrowboys, never tried them or so go for it and work it out! I would say that I use gitmob grots for almost exactly what you are suggesting. Slightly cheaper so I can work in a gitmob shaman as well, They also give you a huge amount of models to bubble wrap against "Alphastrikes" again game one is an amazing example of this. They get first turn, use it to hit you before you get a turn and try to kill key pieces. So using that example, you line the grots across the entire front of your board so he physically can't engage your other units. It denies the blood knights charge and lets you counter charge. If he refuses the charge you just push your whole line up, and fire with 60 grots, throw out the spells. 

Seems like you learned a lot and got a bunch of good experience. You finished better, relatively, than I did at my first tournament and it sounds like you dismantled the SC player in that final game.

Fight, Learn, Get Bigga an' Arder!

WAAAAGH!

[albin100]

Hello.

Have you considered greenskins arrer boys instead of savage arrer boys? 40 orruk arrer boys are more models and cheaper than the savage ones. but they have less attacks for each model. You would save 40points although you lose about 19shots every shoting phase...

I'm not sure how much difference in total damage the ranged orruks does, I'm guessing brutes or GG does more, but it will make it easier to charge up a Weirdnob shaman and a FoG is always fun.  

 

[Cvaldor]

Had not considered greenskinz  before... but ill tell you I have angered the dice gods.  I've never rolled so many 1s and 2s before.  Last game I played I tried 3 rock lobbers and only got off one hit.