"Just Play Better"

[heywoah_twitch]

Hi I'm making this thread for battle reports with pictures in my quest to git gud with beast claw raiders!

I've taken some brief notes in my games leading up to this point, but I've decided to go ahead and do some actual battle reports in an effort to make our tga destruction forum more than just endless Ironjaws discussions - our GA is more than just orcs! I'm new to the hobby and wargaming in general, got my army assembled and base coated just in time to play one game pre-GHB17, so much of my journey to improve tactically has also been dealing with loss . The poor artist blames his tools, though, and so even though it was quite clear that BCR were dumpster-tier after the changes, theorycraft and playtesting are different beasts. I come from a very competitive MtG background, and my team regularly competes at thousand person grand prix day 2s, scg invitationals, and the pro tour, and one of our mantras when we feel like complaining about bad beats or an underpowered list is "Just Play Better". As in, yes, you could have a bad matchup or the wrong sideboard and these are very relevant, but don't underestimate the power of making less mistakes. Furthermore GW apparently listens to feedback and playtesting, so lets figure out what to recommend for ghb18!

Early Games:

My lists are eurlbad or jorlbad, with a thundertusk and either a 2nd tusk or a skal. 2-man msu mournfang as is the prevailing wisdom. sometimes no battalions, sometimes frostlord, sometimes 12 ogor allies, etc. honestly just trying all the combinations, even ones I think aren't very good. it pays to see first hand why something isn't recommended. These early games are from memory or one-sentence notes after the battle, so are sadly very short on useful info, but anyway.

*First game ever: all I remember is that frostlord on stonehorn died from full life to 5 brutes that charged him during a waagh (pre-stone skeleton nerf). I think I won by running away from Gordrakk while scoring points. I critically won the double turn on t5 to be able to turtle up on my objectives. Major Victory. honestly felt like a cheap way to win. not sure I like the random timewalk mechanic.

*duality of death. -skal list vs balanced Ironjaws w/ 30ard, mawboss: I'm given first turn, drop skal on right point to capture while lining up for potential counter charge. He gets much farther than I anticipate, puts most of my army into combat, kills the frost sabers first and proceeds to smash and bash his way through every combat before I can activate even one unit, killing everything. He then wins the double turn and that's game. Major Loss. What I learned: chaff units only feed ironjaws power, smashing and bashing is great, they cover more distance than you think, and they are ridiculously killy thanks to amazing buffs and synergies. rolling for initiative really slams the door shut when you're behind, I think I don't like the random timewalk mechanic.

*frostlord and skal w/ butcher v ironjaws: I try to kill the ardboy unit because it will auto-capture and just get me on points. charge SH beastriders in, shoot with tusk (roll a 1). long story short the ardboys kill stonehorn with damage 1 attacks and they take my whole army's full offense for 2 turns and don't die while he racks up double my points and I'm mostly tabled. Major Loss. What I learned: my whole army can't kill 30 'ardboys. thundertusks actually suck when they can't snipe heroes. butcher is frustratingly random. capturing objectives in 5/6 battleplans based on number of models nearby is possibly a crippling weakness of BCR that needs to be solved with allies. I hope this isn't true, however, because the whole reason I chose BCR was so that I could play an army that didn't have to run hordes of tiny idiots to win. Even so, wouldn't it be better to play an army where your battleline are numerous and good?

*seraphon v 2x thundertusk list: Opponent makes a critical mistake, teleporting slaan and a unit next to a thundertusk, fails the charge, then on my turn vulture+frost cannon the slann off with over 800 points of summoning now trapped off the table. He concedes for a Major Victory. What I learned: if an army with really important 5-6-7 wound hero majorly ****** up I can steal a victory.

*seraphon rematch: He plays conservatively and wins on points. Major Loss. What I learned: this matchup is seraphon's game to lose. skink units capture automatically and can retreat on my turn, coupled with powerful teleporting and rend -1 ignoring units. I felt like the dumb aggro deck being easily dealt with by blue/white control.

*seraphon balewind kroakk astrolith list v 1 thundertusk eurlbad: my thundertusk gets hit with some spells charting it down to d3 mw on the fwi right away, and he never gets out of chart hell all game, so kroakk on balewind is literally invulnerable to my whole army. He pulses aoe mw on all my units every turn, slowly killing them while I lose on positioning and points by over 15 and get tabled on turn 4. The Majorist of Losses.

*kroakk rematch but on duality of death v frostlord butcher butcher list: He gives me first turn, so I run a mystic shielded frostlord on a point, scoring. For the rest of the game I stay 1pt ahead and he can't actually kill frostlord since all his damage comes from mortal wound spells which are still halved with stone skeleton. Major Victory. What I learned: the one battleplan that doesn't reward models might actually be fair for BCR. An army that relies on spells has a hard time dealing with frostlord, whom I had considered pretty fragile up until now, as he would get consistently merced by the most common weapon type in the game (damage 1).

*Khorne archaon v eurlbad: Played a few games in various battleplans against this and it's 50/50. trying to strand archaon on an obj so his points are spent inefficiently babysitting an objective instead of one-shotting a 400pt behemoth is a legit strategy, as is trying to alpha strike him off the table. Khorne blood tithe movement is very strong on archaon, and the player was honing his tactics very well each game. I think I'm down to 40/60 at this point as he gets used to the army. What I learned: don't let varanguard charge, khorne priests are amazing. bronze flesh, scorpion get-over-here, and 1d6 mw, you're almost spoiled for choices. a skal that doesn't drop in to capture a point is a complete waste of 250 points. Bloodreavers suck, even with a million buffs. Blood Warriors with punch-fists are underwhelming.

Starstrike. Eurlbad v GA death: I position mournfang just out of charge range on t2, then opponent moves them 4" in his hero phase from the battalion that I forgot about and so I get charged by 40 buffed skeletons re-rolling hits and wounds from mystical. Pictured is 960 points of mournfang being kindly welcomed into the Bone Zone. They do not survive. I do not survive. Major Loss. Things I learned: when you think you're out of charge range, it is very possible that you are not. Eurlbad Huskard on Stonehorn is just as/slightly more killy than a frostlord, and can expect to just delete a vampire lord on zombie dragon if you get the charge. a skal can drop in to capture a point, but will definitely not hold it.

Battle for the Pass. 2 butcher 2 tusk 1 frostlord v balanced list ironjaws w/ 2 grot chariots (proxied using my mournfangs in pic). I play a little too defensively this game and suffer from not developing my board presence enough. The blob of ardboys is sent front and center, obliging me to have to deal with it even though I don't want to. Two turns of everything in my army attacking it and it survives while most of my guys die and he wins on points hugely by turn 4. Major Loss. What I learned: my whole army really can't kill 30 ardboys. an opponent who properly hides his buffing heroes in terrain makes the 380 point thundertusks feel like bloated garbage. Two butchers is great, probably something I always want. frostlord is just too expensive. Once again I just don't have enough models and our behemoths are not strong enough to cover for that downside. Starting to think that the prevailing wisdom of 2-man msu mournfangs, while indeed being resistant to battleshock, are just too weak and susceptible to missing. I'm losing the activation war, and I think I'm just going to have to risk getting blown out by ranged+battleshock and bite the bullet on units of 4 mournfang. Playing conservatively is a luxury and privilege that armies with great unit options and warscrolls have. We don't got that. Sometimes you gotta bet big to win big - it might be my only chance.

*Nurgle demons v eurlbad w/ 1 tusk. Duality of death. He was mostly a 40k player and wasn't very experienced with AoS. He didn't want to use artefacts or traits because he 'didn't like the GA ones'. I held back to help him learn the game (and even secretly didn't place 2 mournfang so was on 1700 pts to his like 2200). I regret not re-rolling the battleplan, as duality of death is the only battleplan where BCR isn't at a massive disadvantage, but figured the point diff was enough. I won despite him having the tools to definitely win easily. What I learned: new players think thundertusks are insanely overpowered. Potential AoS players hate rolling for initiative and it turns them off from the game entirely. Every new player friend watching complained about double turns the whole time, and I couldn't really disagree, it's the least satisfying way to win a game, and feels bad to lose to.

[heywoah_twitch]

Last night's game against GA: Death saw me testing out some new stuff: 4-man units of mournfang, saying 'no' to stonehorns entirely, and trying one unit of prey hackers with punch-fists.

BCR v. Death, Total Conquest, 2k

1 huskard thundertusk w/ pelt, everwinter
2 butchers w/ cauldron
1 Skal w/ 6 frost sabers, hunter w/ bleeding skull
4x mournfang w/ gargant hackers
4x mournfang w/ gargant hackers
4x mournfang w/ prey hackers and iron fists

vampire lord on zombie dragon
necromancer
wight king
mortis engine
40 skelebros
10 skelebros
10 graveguard
5 black knights
6 vargeists
maybe something else

I had less drops so let him take 1st turn. We postured 20"-ish away from eachother while expanding our models into proper positioning t1. let's not get surprised charged, right? bone zone dead center across from my huskard, butchers, and mournfang unit 1, vargeists and 10 skeles on the left across from my mourn unit 2, and zombie dragon+ knights+ GG to the right against mournfang unit 3.

t2 I won init and gave it to him, wanting to set up the t3 double. he made a fort around the right point of GG, knights, vampire dragon. on the left he camped out inside buildings closing in on my left point. the middle skeletons, heroes, and mortis began the creep up. I put the mournfang into cover between my point and the fort+dragon, set up counter charges along my backline to clean out my points if he took them, and galloped thundertusk on top of the center rock pile deadly terrain (come at me). fired 6mw main cannon into necromancer who death saved 2, took 1, and shipped 3 to skeleton horde, who death saved 1, then on his turn came back. oof. 1 damage dealt with frost wreathed ice gg me.

t3 he won init, sent 3 vargs and 10 skeletons into my left point to capture, charged zombie dragon up the deadly terrain like a baller, didn't roll the 1, and smashed thundertusk for 10 damage (me re-rolling saves from triumph) and got both butchers into combat as well. butchers swung 17 attacks back dealing 1 damage. thundertusk also did 1. he scores 4 points so it's 6 to 2.

bottom of t3, I heal tusk up to 5w. shoot mortis engine, other butcher puts +1 to hit on middle MF, mystic shield unbound. right MF fall back out of cover to protect point. left MF charge the 10 skeletons and kill them all, capturing. butchers retreat to make room for middle (+1 to hit) MF, who charge zombie dragon and delete him. he comes back to life with the ring, and sets up 11" away next to mortis engine instead of my objective, as I didn't leave a place for him to drop with those right MF, expecting him to roll the needed 3+. I score 3 and it's 5 to 6, whoever wins prio will be in a great place. boy I wish turn order was just back and forth.

t4 he wins prio, heals zombie with mortis once-a-game, rolling 17" and does 3 mw to basically my whole army. zombie drinks chalice as well and is sitting at 10 life. the bone zone starts spreading over deadly to my bottom left point, capturing it, and with the full 40 he'll just have it for the game. mortis shifts right around the fort. zombie dragon kills butcher #1 but couldn't get close enough to bottom right point. vargeists consolidate around his upper left point. he scores 4, up to 10. my turn tusk heals 1 from pelt, fails blizzard heal. voracious maw unbound. skal ambush in to upper left point. skal pistols actually hit stuff on the right, cleaning out some skeletons. MF charge upper left point, sabers charge, hunter fails charge. I kill enough dudes to capture. tusk charges over deadly to get bone zone into combat so they can't spread to upper left, roll a 3, safe. right MF charge black knights, killing them. GG pile in and kill 1 mourn. tusk piles in like a peninsula so only 8 skeletans get to attack and chooses not to swing (or he'd remove the closest 2 and be out of combat). I score 3 so 8 to 10.

t5 I win prio, finish off upper left guys, heal up tusk but not enough for d6mw, middle MF kill zombie dragon again, right MF kill remaining GG but can't finish off mortis engine (I activate incorrectly and don't split attacks well here). I score 4 so it's 12 to 10. his t5 the mortis engine that I failed to kill retreats onto bottom right point, scores 3, so good game, 12 to 13 Major Loss.

What I learned:

I've improved a lot since my last battle against death (where I positioned 45% of my army "just out of charge range" ...and then got charged by a fully buffed 40 skeletons and every single mournfang died). I ended up rushing a decision or two in bottom of t3 and top of t5 which were important mistakes. putting wounds on the wrong guy so that when he died and was removed the mortis could fit close enough to the point, and not properly attacking mortis engine on my last turn to assure its death, essentially throwing the game. Forgot two blood vultures. Remembered triumph and made lots of little good plays I think. Overall I think I played much better.

This time I tried some non-standard stuff like forgoing stonehorns entirely in favor of equal points worth of mournfang and that's just unquestionably better. Furthermore, I'm completely sold on units of 4 MF instead of the standard msu of 2 each. Yes, having 2 reduces the chance of brutal battleshocks making 80-point ogors run for each point you fail it by, but it's more important not to lose the combat activation game. with weapons at 4+/3+, two ogors just aren't impactful enough, they end up being fat guys who miss all the time. you need 4 worth of swings to get good work done before your opponent can activate. with butcher buff they killed a 440pt mounted vampire lord on the charge twice in one game before he could swing, in msu land he'd be hitting back. a charge-focused bruiser style army like this needs to hammer down when we get the charge and just risk it with battleshocks. sometimes you gotta bet big to win big.

Prey hackers and iron fists suck. # of non-rend attacks in 3 games testing Iron Fists that were rolled against that mournfang unit: Zero.

also with units of 4 I was able to actually capture objectives, instead of having a huge behemoth watch helplessly as three surviving battleline waltz up and auto-steal. 4 MF are 320 vs a stonehorn at 360-380, same save, nearly statistically identical offense, and double the wounds (while stone skeleton does ******-all against non-mws now). My three meticulously customized and painted stonehorn that inspired me to play BCR are shelf-tier in ghb17.

Two nice pictures of games near me to end on a non-sad note:

[Malakree]

How did you find the skal, who is your general, would you consider swapping it to the hunter to get Battleline doggies. Run the mf in 6s? Maybe run one 6 and a 2. Just curious.

[Kessler]

Great thread! Interesting to read. Completely agree that 4 man mournfangs are better. I try to find out if braggoth beast hammer can absolve beastclaws: that makes regular 4+/3+ hit ratio to 3+/3+ and really makes them great units. Additionally they can pile in and attack twice in combat once per battle. 

By the way, what did you use for converted butcher's cauldron? 

[heywoah_twitch]

10 hours ago, Malakree said:

How did you find the skal, who is your general, would you consider swapping it to the hunter to get Battleline doggies. Run the mf in 6s? Maybe run one 6 and a 2. Just curious.

Skal is good if it drops in to capture a point, and a total waste of points if it does not- no inbetween. 1 or 2 units of sabers are good to babysit an objective while you develop your good pieces, but the 250 extra for hunter+battalion is the issue. The hunter has an awkward bad warscroll is the main problem, and after pelt our artefacts are meh. I mean the dude is a Hero for 140pts with a 5+ save and no rend, no spells/prayers/buffs/command abilities. What? I know comparing across armies is a little out of context but relictor is 80pts, bloodsecrator is 120, megaboss is 140, etc.

General is whatever behemoth I'm running. The everwinter master needs to survive!

No way on hunter general. Set up in ambush he can't reroll everwinter, which we need turn 1 (and every other). It's too bad our allegiance ability is random (never fun, my condolences nurgle bros) and a third of the table is useless (mw on 6s in 3" range is soo baad). I dont want frost saber battleline, that's just for cheating as many behemoths into a list as you can get - and behemoths suck tbh. So do frost sabers but at least they're cheap. That 6+ save probably kills the possibility of spamming them; liberators they are not. 

6 mournfang is probably pushing it, but of course will test.

edit: cleaned up phone posting.

[heywoah_twitch]

3 hours ago, Kessler said:

Great thread! Interesting to read. Completely agree that 4 man mournfangs are better. I try to find out if braggoth beast hammer can absolve beastclaws: that makes regular 4+/3+ hit ratio to 3+/3+ and really makes them great units. Additionally they can pile in and attack twice in combat once per battle. 

By the way, what did you use for converted butcher's cauldron? 

I'm concerned with keeping the units near each other will mean half the time one sits out of combat, and terrain being very restrictive but a few have tested it on the forum.  I'd rather not play with tons of orruks tho, just as I'd rather not ally in a million grots. I'd be on their armies if i wanted that (and full ironjaws is certainly better).

I made the cauldrons out of greenstuff and wood, and the vehicles are heavily modified grot scrap launchers. 

[svnvaldez]

Every full BCR list I use has 2 units of 20 grot allies and a butcher... I kinda think they are a must. I wish they would remove the frost lord nerf or reduce the points of our monsters. 

[heywoah_twitch]

6 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

Every full BCR list I use has 2 units of 20 grot allies and a butcher... I kinda think they are a must. I wish they would remove the frost lord nerf or reduce the points of our monsters. 

you're most likely right, I've just been putting off trying allied grots because it'd be the final nail in the coffin really. Huge behemoth spam monster mash army? - nah, keep them on the shelf, just run as many mournfang as you can, then ally in 40 grots... boo. I'd probably move on to another faction whose advertised theme and lore fit the playstyle.

If there were still all those OP destruction abilities and artefact rules of '16 the behemoth nerfs would be quite justified. As it is though you could revert the stone skeleton/tusk point increase nerfs and we'd still be treading water. Aggressively cost them and do something real clever like count their # of wounds as # of models with regards to capturing objectives for bcr allegiance and it could thread the needle of making 5/6 battleplans not sisyphean without opening the doors to GA stealing our guys again.

Also, stonehorn v mournfang quick damage comparison:

editors note: hero huskard on stonehorn actually does less damage in combat than the battleline stonehorn beastrider, bizarrely. 

[Paul G]

Great thread man! Reading through has really given me back some impetus to continue building my BCR. Your minis look awesome too, love the snow effects. Been struggling myself with how to apply the snow paint so will be borrowing your method. All of the photos of the armies look great too. 

Would be cool to hear some bat reps including Yetis at some point!

[Salarath]

Interesting read,

I also come (back) to this game from an MTG perspective and I think your approach is very interesting. Beastclaw, as you know, suffers from low model count which makes seizing objectives quite difficult. Similarly, I agree with much of your unit decisions (esp. 4 mournfang) although I will say that a frostlord on stonehorn can still be relied upon for massive damage output. I recently won best destruction at #Angelcore, although it has to be said I got a little lucky in some games and I struggled vs. tzeentch. The hunter is, as you say, quite weak but his ability to drop down and burn objectives turn 1 is undeniable. i've found grots and butchers help with both the ability to put out damage and also camp an objective (especially in the scenario that needs 5+ models) My current list (slightly modified from the tournament) is:

Frostlord on stonehorn 460 Pelt

Huskard on thundertusk 380

butcher 140

butcher 140

hunter, general 140 everwinter's master, elixir of frostwyrm

2 frost sabres 40

2 frost sabres 40

skal 110

4 mournfang pack, gargant hackers 320

20 grots 100

3 icefall yhetees 120

10 points left for a cheeky triumph?

 

[Soup Dragon]

On 05/12/2017 at 2:03 PM, Salarath said:

I will say that a frostlord on stonehorn can still be relied upon for massive damage output

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one buddy. My experience is that it sometimes does massive damage, but surprisingly often whiffs almost completely. I've lost count of the times mine have done just 3 or 4 wounds in a round of combat. I have run lists with 2 Frostlords + 2 Sonehorn beastriders and the 4+ to hit is just so swingy as to not be reliable.

[bonzai]

I think you have the right mindset, and doing the right thing. It's important to ask yourself questions after every battle. What did I learn? What did I do wrong? What can I improve on? Back in the day when I played magic, I would deconstruct the popular "net lists", and I would also ask some questions. How does this deck win? How does it interact with my deck and my path to victory? What are the lynch pin cards that it relys on to function? How can I disrupt their deck and how can they disrupt mine? Basic Sun Tzu, know yourself, know your enemy.

All of this is very applicable to AoS, and the more experience you get with your and your opponents army, the better your win ratio will become.

[Turragor]

On 12/5/2017 at 3:03 PM, Salarath said:

Frostlord on stonehorn 460 Pelt

Huskard on thundertusk 380

butcher 140

butcher 140

hunter, general 140 everwinter's master, elixir of frostwyrm

2 frost sabres 40

2 frost sabres 40

skal 110

4 mournfang pack, gargant hackers 320

20 grots 100

3 icefall yhetees 120

I like the look of this list! I just don't like the hunter as general (if that wasn't the case ofc there would need to be changes to the list).

Basically I'm all in for 20 grots as my next destruction purchase. I think we need at least 20, maybe 40 in 2 x 20 units (1 less butcher).

Because I see myself playing pure grots down the line in some form or other I don't mind this even though I admit the big burly beast party is part of the reason I got bcr.

EVEN SO

The grots are clearly the food for the road and they've broken free! Each setup they'll be way ahead for that reason, scared to meet the enemy, terrified that the BCR catch up.

[heywoah_twitch]

Another week another game, this time against a well tuned Pestilens list with scryre allies. A horde army with goodstuff heroes that aren't too terribly important and a 40-man deepstriking unit is probably my nightmare scenario. Unlike Khorne, which kind of falls apart when its heroes die, pestilens enjoys their buffs, but isn't neutered without them. This coupled with just a huge amount of bodies works to lessen thundertusk's impact in the game. Saves of - mean my army-wide rend is wasted item budget. And everyone being on damage 1 makes playing with any stonehorn just suicide - even worse than normal. 

Verminlord Corruptor general with priest ability

plague furnace

3x plague priests

40x plague monks, 40x plague monks, 20x plague monks, 20x plague monks, 10x plague monks, 10x plague monks

2x poison wind mortar ally

1x warp-lightning cannon ally

1x warp-grinder weapon team

1970pts - 194 wounds, 149 bodies

I'm on the heavy magic, heavy mournfang list of:

2x huskard on thundertusk (pelt, master)

2x butcher w/ cauldron

4x mournfang, 4x mournfang, 4x mournfang (all gargant hackers)

2k - 110 wounds, 16 bodies

Scorched Earth. I out drop him with 7 and let him go first. Critically, he sets up a 40-rat unit tunneling with the warp-grinder which is so good in a pestilens list that I'm not even sure how to handle it. Already I don't think I can kill enough rats to take the left point without losing all my guys to pile-in-on-death and mw-on-death from priest/banner buffs, not to mention counter charges and hero abilities, so I position the right most mournfang group off of the objective, hoping he tunnels the rats in so I can counter charge them off the table and then swing around to the upper right virtually undefended point. He'll get a d3, but I will too next turn and I don't have the luxury of safe play against this many bodies. If he wants to turtle and counter charge I don't think I can stop him, especially with those mortar teams and the warp cannon.

His t1, prays with his priests, gets a great plague so now his prayers work on 2+, moves his guys forward but still carefully in cover or out of tusk range. Moves up 10-rat unit to test the waters. Rolls and fails to bring the 40 rats in and this actually really sucks for me. It delays my movement to that upper right point by a turn at least, making it happen at best on t4 prob on t5, so no sweep left on the last turn to try to get his middle point. I have to stay back again or those 40 rats will sweep my backfield. 3 points

My t1 I move up slightly, shoot the 10-rat unit off the table with tusks, cast mystic shield, give mournfang +1 to hit, and put the right mournfang on the point so I'm not behind in a game so difficult to capture for me I can't afford to be down points now, even though I'm in danger of a 9" charge. I move middle mournfang right to try to make headway towards the upper right point so my rightmost unit can fight the 40man rats that will surely arrive soon, but I critically leave them within range of the warp lightning gun in my haste to get there (it'd take an extra whole turn if I went around the back). 3 points

T2 He wins initiative so the game follows proper turn order. He fails mystic shield and some prayers, but gets a second great plague. He moves furnace and rats up past the house and gets the tunnel roll, putting the 40 by my right point, outside 9" from the mournfang. His warp lightning cannon shoots middle mournfang for 5mw, and both poison wind mortar teams hit, wound, and roll 6s for damage. 17 wounds plus 2 from plague puts the middle mournfang unit down to 1 model and the objective plan is dead. He makes his 9" charge on the right mournfang and kills one with some spill over wounds on the next one (I rolled saves well). They kill some rats in return, but he's still got over 20, plus the warp-team hiding behind a house away from combat. He decides not to burn the point, which was clever. It puts him up 1 point in a game that I'm very unlikely to have a turn with 4, and it keeps me fully tied up down here trying to get my point back and defending against one little warp-team instead of moving up to his least-defended point. Essentially giving me a choice between wasting time and barely losing or retreating and losing by 4 or 5 instead. 7 points.

My t2 I fail to cast mystic shield, great maw does 2 to rats, fail both blizzard speaker heals, fail thundertusk shot on furnace (oof). The other tusk shoots the once-40 rats, the one mournfang now has to charge plague furnace after all those misses to try and kill it. He's got a great plague dealing a mw to him every turn anyway so he's dead in the future. I activate him first to try to finish off furnace even though it lets the once-40 (now like 11) rats attack the right mournfangs. My gamble does not pay off, single mournfang wiffs and then gets killed by warpstone tipped staff doing the last 4 to him. The rats kill another mournfang on the right leaving only 2 left, who kill the rest. 6 points.

I win init and take the double, although no one's in combat and everyone's mostly far away so for once it's not a very impactful priority. I go against my rule of thumb of "If you think it's not a very important priority roll and win it, give it to your opponent." and that was probably a mistake. honestly writing about it I have no idea why I took it, so now I'm wondering who even won it?

t3 I fail both blizzard speakers, fail great maw, arcane bolt a 10-man rat by the houses for 1mw. butcher runs near warp-team to sit on the point so mournfang start the journey up north east, left mournfang shimmy around their point to not get charged unless double turn. 9 points.

his t3 he advances the left flank of rats and verminlord and priest up into those cover houses, runs middle rats down. misses with mortar hits with the other for 1 damage. 10 points.

t4 he charges 20 rats into thundertusk killing him, but can't get close enough to the objective due to other tusk positioning. Charges 40? 20? rats plus verminlord into left mournfang on point, killing them and capturing, again not burning. 14 points.

my t4 fail blizzard speaker and mystic shield. thundertusk kills the middle rats to keep the point. butcher kills warp-team. north east 2 mournfang charge off the 10 rats in the north point. 12 points. Don't burn since they can't get anywhere with only 1 turn left and if he burns my left point and rolls a 1 and can't kill thundertusk and I burn upper right and roll a 3 we'll tie. All other outcomes are a major loss.

t5 he can't quite charge the thundertusk with the vernimlord, then just rolls to burn to save time, rolls a 2 for 18 points, the max I can get is 17, GG. Major Loss.

 

[heywoah_twitch]

What I learned/thoughts: 

The more I play AoS the more I think that my natural tendencies don't line up with a lolcharge army. I play carefully, staying at range, protecting my artillery, trying not to get charged so I can line up counter charges, all my lists feature like 4 dudes that can heal, etc. This game highlighted my over-protectiveness of my thundertusks, I think. Their weakness is that once they have 3 damage on them, their gun sucks, and gets even yet worse very quickly (and apparently I can't rely on blizzard-speaker having failed the vast majority of their rolls these past 3 games), but isn't that why I'm running 2 in the first place? I really was trying to stay away from his scryre artillery (which devastated anything that got in range early game). In hindsight, instead of this careful keepaway game whose outcome was always going to be hovering around a draw at best, I should've galloped tusk #1 up into warp-lightning cannon range, shot it off the table, accepted the counter charge, then sent 8 mournfang in to counter-counter charge and let the dust settle where it may. Which if I'm being honest would've been with me getting tabled and then 65 rats running around burning objectives for 2 turns - but who knows.

Interestingly, prey hackers and punch fists, while almost always inferior to gargant hackers, are strictly superior in this exact matchup (a million incoming non-rend attacks from rats with no saves).

This game I really felt like I was always in imminent danger of being overwhelmed and destroyed by power of numbers, which also served to hold me back.

[Turragor]

I think  you're approaching a level of comfort with bcr and tactical ability with them (which I don't have at all yet) that some of your reports where you seem to be really against it versus certain matchups begin to read like mostly pretty bad luck as much as anything else - example: The amount of failed rolls in your last post.

Regarding your follow up post, should you change? I'm of the view that (when I finally finish painting 2000 pts of BCR) I personally won't

I like their aesthetic. That counts a helluva lot for me. They maybe got a bit heavily nerfed due to the mixed destruction super lists but they aren't terrible - it's moreso that the scenarios of 2017 are heavily against this army (pure, non-allied) more than any other.

GHBs are yearly and, well like seasons. You can start a strong army during a strong season, get it painted in a few months and play (depending on how often you play) a dozen games and thats it, you then repeat the process the next year. Or you can pick something you like the look of, sink time into that army, get battles under you belt so you know them inside out and then keep playing them until your army ascends in a GHB.

This is what I like about my BCR choice. The only concession I'm thinking of for 2017 (which is near half gone - I'll prob not get playing BCR much this GHB actually) is 20 grots - purely because I've always wanted a little horde of grots.

Basically, I've a Stormcast collection in good shape (with 30 vulkite allies admittedly) for this season in a ton of army list variations.  I can use that until my BCR are ready and THEN I plan on just learning them - much as you are doing.

I think that work put in, that loyalty for want of a better word, pays dividends when an army is in the ascension.

 

[heywoah_twitch]

1 hour ago, Turragor said:

I think  you're approaching a level of comfort with bcr and tactical ability with them (which I don't have at all yet) that some of your reports where you seem to be really against it versus certain matchups begin to read like mostly pretty bad luck as much as anything else - example: The amount of failed rolls in your last post.

Regarding your follow up post, should you change? I'm of the view that (when I finally finish painting 2000 pts of BCR) I personally won't

Well, keep in mind selection bias will always have your memorable experiences (in my last game for example: opponent getting 12 damage with two mortars, the critical 1 on a tusk shot, etc) come to mind easier than the average rolls over the whole game, which added up were certainly close to statistically normal.

I'm getting a better feel for what my units can do and what they can absorb, although hitting on 4s with high damage army wide makes them quite swingy and annoying to predict. I'm improving, but in my last 11 games I've had 9 major defeats, and one of those wins was against a nurgle player with no allegiance abilities who'd never really played AoS before, so let's not bust out the champaign yet. I'd hoped a prevailing theme of these reports (as well as I can remember them) are a catalog of learning from my many mistakes, and finding ways to give a downtrodden army a fighting chance in ghb18, rather than an elaborate blame the dice thread.

Although it's fun to see some of the rarer variance. Andrewyells told me in our game and I confirmed that Druchii.net AoS combat statistics calculator doesn't even list 12 damage as possible for 2 attacks on 4+/4+ vs a 6+ save and 1d6 damage, as in not even 0%. 

As to changing armies: no, I chose bcr based on rule of cool, fun lore, the variety of materials to learn to paint (skin, fur, metal, wood, etc), and max huge behemoths playstyle. Only the last one turned out to be a lie, and with a GHB every year surely they'll swing back into place, I just hope it's monster mash as advertised tbh.

I have been collecting and converting a second army though: mixed order with heavily modified stormcasts, I have a thread about it in the painting section of tga.

Next game let's try tiny grotmen.

[Mournfang's mourning]

Awesome thread man Really like how detailed you're going into this. So much to learn from here! Much appreciate your work!

Btw @heywoah_twitch could you maybe post a closer image of you butcher riding on what seems to be a former ironblaster/scraplauncher? Just for inspiration purpose as I'm still trying to figure out how to build and base mine Thanks in advance!

 

[tolstedt]

That's the spread of two poison wind mortar shots against a 4+ save. 
Literally so close to 0% chance of 12 damage that it's not even listed as a possibility!
 

[heywoah_twitch]

On 12/11/2017 at 5:32 PM, Mournfang's mourning said:

Awesome thread man Really like how detailed you're going into this. So much to learn from here! Much appreciate your work!

Btw @heywoah_twitch could you maybe post a closer image of you butcher riding on what seems to be a former ironblaster/scraplauncher? Just for inspiration purpose as I'm still trying to figure out how to build and base mine Thanks in advance!

 

No problem here you go! I typically run two in my games and yes, they're made out of the Grot Scraplauncher//Ironblaster box (and the little animal pulling it is pretty easy to pass for a mournfang). I made the cauldron out of a dowel I chopped with a bandsaw and covered in greenstuff with some texture pressed and sculpted in. I think it looks like a proper vehicle of war lead by a fun boss-man looking ogor with cool weapons and nice pot of goopy gibs and treasure, with enough references to bcr to keep it on theme. I used the taught stretchy stuff from the scraplauncher to rest the sides of the cauldron on (as well as a support from undernearth, plus against the big tusks and I think it sits pretty understandably there. The copper toothy metal thing is more of a shield here than muzzle breaker like for the ironblaster.

 

[bonzai]

On 12/11/2017 at 12:12 PM, heywoah_twitch said:

What I learned/thoughts: 

The more I play AoS the more I think that my natural tendencies don't line up with a lolcharge army. I play carefully, staying at range, protecting my artillery, trying not to get charged so I can line up counter charges, all my lists feature like 4 dudes that can heal, etc. This game highlighted my over-protectiveness of my thundertusks, I think. Their weakness is that once they have 3 damage on them, their gun sucks, and gets even yet worse very quickly (and apparently I can't rely on blizzard-speaker having failed the vast majority of their rolls these past 3 games), but isn't that why I'm running 2 in the first place? I really was trying to stay away from his scryre artillery (which devastated anything that got in range early game). In hindsight, instead of this careful keepaway game whose outcome was always going to be hovering around a draw at best, I should've galloped tusk #1 up into warp-lightning cannon range, shot it off the table, accepted the counter charge, then sent 8 mournfang in to counter-counter charge and let the dust settle where it may. Which if I'm being honest would've been with me getting tabled and then 65 rats running around burning objectives for 2 turns - but who knows.

Interestingly, prey hackers and punch fists, while almost always inferior to gargant hackers, are strictly superior in this exact matchup (a million incoming non-rend attacks from rats with no saves).

This game I really felt like I was always in imminent danger of being overwhelmed and destroyed by power of numbers, which also served to hold me back.

If that is your natural play style, then I would look into Sylvaneth. They are an elite'ish army that have some strong range components, like playing keep away games with wild wood teleportation until they are ready to counter strike with hunters and tree monsters. They also have a strong healing game. The running joke is that they are susceptible to mortal wounds. The truth to that is that while they have tough multi wound models, every loss is keenly felt, hence you need to play carefully with them until your ready to commit.

It sounds very much like a play style you would enjoy. 

[heywoah_twitch]

Another two days another two games!

The first was a brutal pounding against a freeguild and aelf mixed order list on scorched earth. We were in a little bit of a hurry to try and play before the store closed so I'm not 100% on the specifics of his army (also being unfamiliar with freeguild stuff), but he had:

Freeguild general on horse 

20 eldritch council swordmasters

20 white lion halberd aelfs

20 freeguild greatsworders

10 handgunners

1 hellstorm rocket battery w/ engineers

1 the other missile cannon thing w/ engineers

10 crossbow men

10 militia guys

1 freeguild banner totem man? or hero of some sort

1 or 2 aelf hero of some sort

vs

frostlord on stonehorn, 2x butcher, 12x mournfang, 20x allied grots, 2 frost sabers, 1 icebrow hunter (forgot my other 2 mournfang I was priming at home)

Long story short, left mournfangs move into position and 3 of the 4 are blasted off the table by the two artillery and crossbowmen. butchers roll the near-useless mortal wounds within 7" four times over two turns to no effect. right mournfang charge into the 20 white lions, dealing 2 damage. white lions return 21 wounds of which I fail 16, coupled with 2 damage from handgunners means 3 die and the last one flees to battleshock. On the left, frostlord on stonehorn crashes into hellstorm rocket and crossbowmen, and I roll well! - 5 mws on the charge, cheeky rotational pile-in to drag the crossbowmen first into combat and then into their graves. t3 he fires at and charges the greatsworders into frostlord which I feel was a blunder considering at the time frostlord was on 2+ save rr 1s from mystic shield and everwinter die. screening and shifting right would've been more effective, as the greatswords plink off frostlords temporarily near-stardrake defense; he takes 2 wounds and kills 12. 

At the top of t4 the store begins to close. I'm up by 1 point (he forgot to put a guy next to one of his points t1), but the swordmasters and white lions are about to charge onto two of my points, hold them for a turn, and then burn at the end of t5. Five engineers are still on his left point keeping the frostlord from scoring, so the game is his. Major Loss.

What I learned:

Artillery is strong. Handgunners are strong. 10 of them shot me up pretty good, I can only imagine the great company stuff people talk about online (actually sounds awesome). I don't think I'd actually make it into combat with them alive. Against good shooting or prickly units, you basically have to just crash in and hope you roll The Nut. It's tempting to say a thundertusk would've helped, but the only outcome I see there is the guy getting charted down in damage immediately by longer-ranged dudes and being mostly a noodle. 

Whatever command ability let basically his whole army hit and wound on 2s is stupendous, and I'm really jealous of armies that have easy synergy like that when I'm spending 280pts to ally in random +1 to hit on a 3-4 dice roll. mournfang just galloped into a buzzsaw and had little effect besides exploding and then running away. His list was casual - I keep thinking about a more serious one with multiple big units of handgunners and proper chaff screens. Against a 'come at me bro' list like that sitting on their objectives/marching up while long range clearing one of mine, I would have literally no options but to get wiped out.

The grots were useless here, but 1) they can't bubble wrap against shooting and 2) they were too slow to actually make it to any objective to contest. I think grots might needs be paired with thundertusks, else leave them home, but further testing req.

[heywoah_twitch]

[grumbling intensifies]

[gentlemen starting their engines]

Today's was a game against a newish AoS player (but not new to 40k or WFB) on a very good looking dispossessed army. A picturesque battle cut tragically short by the Dreaded Double Turn.

He was on two kings, 2x20 warriors, 20 ironbreakers, 20 quarrelers, 2 ballistae, 2 cannons, a totem banner dwarf, a fireman slayer hero

He made several blunders during set up and beyond (didn't put his general with teleporting pickaxe near a meaningful unit, forgot to use his save rerolling triumph when ironbreakers were getting hammered in combat, and ran up into charge range with all his dwarves t1. Actual Run too, so no shield wall during the ensuing mournfang charges). Would've probably been fine, but then I won priority to get the t2 double turn so he proceeded to get fully crippled and the game was soon over in a concession for lunch. 

What I learned:

Getting the double turn to all but win a game on the spot is the least satisfying victory ever. I got magically gifted a Time Walk while ahead - wow so skilled, what a deserved win. Deus ex machina writ small, I felt like apologizing.

Despite the performance, having looked through all their stuff while he was making his list and setting up, I think Dispossessed are pretty sweet. Rune Lords buffs stack, shield wall rerolling saves on most of your guys (even battleline), solid massive reg discounts, dat teleporting pickaxe, irondrakes are overcosted but seem good.

File this one under "helping a new player learn the game" along with the Nurgle guy rather than a data point for wins and losses tbh.

 

[Malakree]

33 minutes ago, heywoah_twitch said:

Getting the double turn to all but win a game on the spot is the least satisfying victory ever. I got magically gifted a Time Walk while ahead - wow so skilled, what a deserved win. Deus ex machina writ small, I felt like apologizing.

One of the harshest lessons I had to learn while starting over summer was to anticipate the double T1/2 against me and not over extend into it. It does really suck but you can play around it.

[Falandris]

why taking the doubleturn then? Had the same situation with a newcomer one week ago: I won the priority roll twice, but i didn't take the doubleturn - because of obvious reasons (new player just introduced to the game, old army - Imperium, he won't learn anything while getting bashed, etc.). Since we were not playing a tournament game and he wanted to learn the game it just felt so wrong using the Double. Maybe on that one you were stuck a bit too hard in your tryhardmentality - at least it reads a bit like that. No offense though