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Of Stormcasts and Space Marines


Mr. White

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(Warning - Positive discussion on the abundance of Stormcasts in the AoS setting incoming. A topic that some may find boring or overdone.)

As a recent AoS convert (but long time SG player), I've never really put my thoughts out on Stormcasts, but no surprise they are basically the same as why I would totally accept the saturation of Space Marines in the 40K setting.

The benefit of having Stormcasts pushed year in and year out is two fold:

1) Every setting needs one, over exposed faction to drive the narrative and provide cohesion and drama.

Stormcasts aren't my faction of choice, but they provide an "umpf" that none of the other factions do. When I play my Tzeentch against, say Skaven or Lizardmen, they are fun battles...no doubt, and I jump at the opportunity for varied match-ups, but there's just that little extra level of excitement when the Stormcasts take the field.

I'll use a sports analogy if I may. Often times fans lament that the Yankees or Lakers or Cowboys (US sports examples) get all the national media. However, what a narrow focus on fewer, celebrated teams does it it helps focus the national narrative and in turn make your small-market team a bit more exciting. Watching the San Antonio Spurs (my team) play the Milwaukee Bucks isn't that exciting, but when the Lakers come to down...that I have a little more interest in. Not every team can compete for a championship, but they will have a powerhouse or two on their yearly schedule and these games do bring an extra level of excitement to what would be a simple regular season game to a team with no hope of gold. Your team may not make the play-offs but a win against the Golden State Warriors is great for a small market fan-base and allows your team to be celebrated for a bit. These games against powerhouses provide extra drama. These super teams actually do help small market teams get by in the regular season...with much needed excitement, but also increased ticket sales which the smaller teams can use.

Stormcasts sort of act in a similar manner. When my Khorne battle FEC, it's a fun side show, but when they battle Stormcasts it feels like a more important battle in the overall narrative tapestry that is the Age of Sigmar.

2) Ease of Paint.

In order for a faction to be saturated it needs to be affordable and easy to get into. Between cost and hobby time, it seems painting is the larger hurtle. Stormcasts overcome that. WFB didn't have that. No more dandies with feathers and full, open faces to paint. Stormcasts, like the obvious Space Marines, allow new players to get an army to the table quickly. That positive momentum can help a new player realize that painted armies are doable, and they'll likely expand to a second army in the future. If their first army is a chore, the odds decrease of expanding from there.

So healthy sales of Stormcasts probably also lead to the long-term health of the line overall. Of course, I've quoted no numbers here, but this is a gut feeling. Anecdotal, but I see it in my son. He enjoys painting Stormcasts and with that glow eyes other armies. Will they all be as easy to paint? No, but that initial positive experience is important.

Also, to the new player, seeing Stormcasts featured routinely, I imagine they get the sense that this faction is important. Their chosen army will be supported and relevenat to the game. It _feels_ like a smart investment so easier to take the plunge.

So, For these two reasons alone, I'm good with some Stormcast releases every year. Experienced and mature gamers will find their way. For all the bellyaching there is about such and such not getting updated, there's still plenty for us to buy, paint, and play (even if we need to look outside of GWs line from time to time - or *gasp* make up some rules). But for AoS to continue to be successful (like 40K has been) we need these poster boys. Tabletop wargaming is a pretty niche hobby. I like GW's flavor the most. If it means more Stormcasts allow for AoS to continue...bring on the golden boys.

 

 

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Yeah the reason for the many Stormcast releases are very simple, they are large heroic models that are the key figure in the setting. The game is called Age of Sigmar, the prime army that is covered is Sigmar's Army, the Stormcast. From a narrative perspective Stormcast and Space Marines arn't remotely the same but from a visual perspective there are many similarities which is probably why GW decided for them.

The one thing that really confuses me is how people still get upset about it. Again because the game is called Age of Sigmar. If Games Workshop would pick a different name for Warhammer 40.000 it could also have easily become Imperium (of Mankind) 40.000. The prime focus always has been the Imperium and 40k is even most often depicted with the Imperial Aquila symbol. 

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Gav Thorpe explained it rather well on Heelanhammer, basically massive heavily armoured superhumans are really popular.  It started in 3rd ed WFB with Chaos Warriors and they channeled it into Space Marines and it’s come full circle with Stormcast. 

When I worked at GW (admittedly 15 yrs ago) was told that they sold as many Space Marines as everything else combined. 

I think it comes down to this sort of thing selling really well. I’m happy with the Stormcast releases as it seems like this will keep AoS sales ticking along and that means continued support for the system which is good with me. 

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I think the main issue with the SCE hate comes from the fact that Age of Sigmar is still not "finished". Aelves are nowhere to be seen, grots don't have army of their own, skaven haven't got proper new release, chaos gods nurgle and slaanesh are still waiting and we haven't even got basic human faction either. Not to mention complete lack of attention to death. Warhammer 40k had years to develop its world and factions, so heavy space marine releases don't matter much anymore. I like stormcast, and I agree on the whole narrative importance thing, but when game is still desperately trying to build its world and factions, every stormcast release (big or small) slows down new faction releases. This generates frustration and will ultimately only drive away some players. I also don't think that GW should push SCE as the main thing in AoS. After all, shouldn't it be the fans of the game that decide the hippest, coolest faction and not the devs themselves.

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26 minutes ago, angrycontra said:

I think the main issue with the SCE hate comes from the fact that Age of Sigmar is still not "finished". Aelves are nowhere to be seen, grots don't have army of their own, skaven haven't got proper new release, chaos gods nurgle and slaanesh are still waiting and we haven't even got basic human faction either. Not to mention complete lack of attention to death. Warhammer 40k had years to develop its world and factions, so heavy space marine releases don't matter much anymore. I like stormcast, and I agree on the whole narrative importance thing, but when game is still desperately trying to build its world and factions, every stormcast release (big or small) slows down new faction releases. This generates frustration and will ultimately only drive away some players. I also don't think that GW should push SCE as the main thing in AoS. After all, shouldn't it be the fans of the game that decide the hippest, coolest faction and not the devs themselves.

I think you are overly simplifying the situation.  When you read the Black Library books, the other factions are a lot more fleshed out. 

Then when you look at the speed of Stormcast releases, you realise that the release scheduled isn't that biased to them. Take the last 12 months. 

January - New kits for Chaos ~6 of them. And new Battle Tome

February/March- New Forgeworld Chaos - 1 unit ,  Stormcasts - 4 new Kits, and New Battle Tome

April/May - New Chaos Battle Tome, Kharadron Overlords 1 Battle Tome, 11 new Kits 

August - Blight war, 1 New kit for Chaos and Stormcasts 

Previewed - One kit for Chaos, Stormcast and Death. 

 

So yes, that is nothing for anyone who isn't Chaos or Order. (and not counting shadespire) But still... 

 

 

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The author really nailed the current situation... after 3 years? it took 3 years to realize this simple truth many other people have realized long ago? Funny.... because it's all true and well, but it's so obvious it should have taken only the starter set to realize how AoS will be developed from now on. 

21 hours ago, angrycontra said:

we haven't even got basic human faction either

And I hope we won't  because it's not needed. Empire syndrome has to retire.

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36 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

And I hope we won't  because it's not needed. Empire syndrome has to retire.

Completely disagree with this statement. 

For every Space Marine you need the Imperial Guard. You need the average man as a baseline to 'normal' so that you can highlight strengths and weaknesses of the other factions. 

Dungeons & Dragons players will know this far too well from their race bonuses while rolling up a character. 

Plus the Black Library has been featuring them more and more ;-)

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2 minutes ago, MrCharisma said:

For every Space Marine you need the Imperial Guard. You need the average man as a baseline to 'normal' so that you can highlight strengths and weaknesses of the other factions. 

 

Of course not. 

2 minutes ago, MrCharisma said:

Dungeons & Dragons players will know this far too well from their race bonuses while rolling up a character. 

 

DnD player will know this when he realizes a prestige class is far better than the usual one and you could start with the prestige without the need to play with the usual one. And many games allow you just this - because playing a usual spearman is quite boring compared to the dark knight. JRPGs know this well.

4 minutes ago, MrCharisma said:

Plus the Black Library has been featuring them more and more ;-)

This does not change anything, and does not indicate GW will release another boring empire style faction, and I hope not. In an epic setting of epic deeds such ubiquity looks even more dull than it's usually.

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Perhaps not everybody sees the underdog story of humans battling far superior opponents as boring as you @Menkeroth. The challenge is within the Halfling Barbarian, not the Orc Barbarian. 

Back on topic with Stormcast. 

Any business would continue R&D into their most profitable line items, and GW is no different. 

I’m surprised we haven’t seen more customisable shoulder pads and shields available to help flesh out the Chambers.  

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1 hour ago, Menkeroth said:

And I hope we won't  because it's not needed. Empire syndrome has to retire.

Just because I used word "basic humans" doesn't mean I want some old empire style faction. I want faction of non-super humans. How about a faction of humans that wield full plate armors and look like some knights from Dark Souls video game series (and walk on foot, no bretonnia horseback knights). They could also wield some flintlock pistols beside their swords and maybe have some other mechanical toys created by engineers (similar to Steamtank). Or maybe that cathay army we never got, ninjas, samurais, cool serpent dragons etc. Or army similar to Imperial guard that has numerous minor factions inside it (catachan, cadia, krieg etc.) based on different mortal realms (obviously would require tons of work but still). If you think humans are boring, you clearly haven't seen enough cool human factions in various fantasy settings.

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Re: Humans...

I take no issue with people having different opinions or preferences to me.

However, I do take issue with certain contributors who seem to always aggressively project these preferences/opinions ahead of all others.

Or, to put it another way, "I don't want it, so GW must not do it".

Naming no names, but you know who you are.

People are wired differently. When reading about history, I am more interested in how the common man was living than the kings and emporers. However, others will be more interested in the "elites".

There is right or wrong thing to be interested in, but merely different people in different positions on the spectrum.

GW will no doubt discover where the "centre of mass" lies on the epic-traditional fantasy spectrum and pitch their products across this range of preferences for maximum returns.

This may indeed end up with the aforementioned epic prioritization, but the number of counter-arguments over this topic recently shows there is at least some demand for the "nuts-and-bolts" as well.

As I said before, these two things don't have to be mutually exclusive - especially with GW's vast resources.

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On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 4:11 PM, Uveron said:

I think you are overly simplifying the situation.  When you read the Black Library books, the other factions are a lot more fleshed out. 

Then when you look at the speed of Stormcast releases, you realise that the release scheduled isn't that biased to them. Take the last 12 months. 

January - New kits for Chaos ~6 of them. And new Battle Tome

February/March- New Forgeworld Chaos - 1 unit ,  Stormcasts - 4 new Kits, and New Battle Tome

April/May - New Chaos Battle Tome, Kharadron Overlords 1 Battle Tome, 11 new Kits 

August - Blight war, 1 New kit for Chaos and Stormcasts 

Previewed - One kit for Chaos, Stormcast and Death. 

 

So yes, that is nothing for anyone who isn't Chaos or Order. (and not counting shadespire) But still... 

 

 

The problem with that layout is you are comparing a single faction to 3 other whole Grand Alliances. So a real layout could be done in 1 of 2 ways.

Via faction:

January - New kits for Disciples of Tzeentch~6 of them. And new Battle Tome

February/March- New Forgeworld Chaos - 1 unit ,  Stormcasts - 4 new Kits, and New Battle Tome

April/May - New Khorne Battle Tome, Kharadron Overlords 1 Battle Tome, 11 new Kits 

August - Blight war, 1 New kit for Nurgle and Stormcasts 

Previewed - One kit for Khorne, Stormcast and Nighthaunt. 

Via GA:

January - New kits for Chaos ~6 of them. And new Battle Tome

February/March- New Forgeworld Chaos - 1 unit ,  Order - 4 new Kits, and New Battle Tome

April/May - New Chaos Battle Tome, Order 1 Battle Tome, 11 new Kits 

August - Blight war, 1 New kit for Chaos and Order

Previewed - One kit for Chaos, Order, and Death. 


As a Stormcast player, I feel complaints are legitimate. The way GW does releases, is one thing at a time gets the spotlight 99% of the time. Out of the 2 1/2 years of AoS, Stormcast have gotten 3 whole months to themselves. December will be the 4th. Yes, it is just one kit in December, but it could have been a new elf, or ork. I think anything else would have had a warmer reception (though the model does admittedly look pretty awesome). I also understand why GW gives them so much attention. But it will certainly continue to leave a bitter taste in the mouths of people that play armies that have had no support at all.

 

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15 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

The challenge is within the Halfling Barbarian, not the Orc Barbarian. 

It depends. In certain situations a halfling will have more advantages than the orc :)

15 hours ago, MrCharisma said:

Perhaps not everybody sees the underdog story of humans battling far superior opponents as boring as you @Menkeroth.

Perhaps. But it is not always have to be humans, for they are always everywhere, and it can be a dark knight battling some mist dragon instead of a usual smith's son with a spear against a mighty orc. And the latter is always boring and uninspiring. After all, if we take classics like LotR, there was a team of mighty heroes and not standard workers and dull soldiers. And it was awesome.

15 hours ago, angrycontra said:

Or maybe that cathay army we never got, ninjas, samurais, cool serpent dragons etc.

That would have been awesome, I was waiting for that in FB even. But then all of this could cover xenos factions, which are present in droves already but have not got much of attention. But I do would like some feral Sigmar tribes, sure, if it's done interesting enough.  And thinking myself to find proper plastic elephants and different Asian cavalry to represent some human Sigmar worshippers. 

15 hours ago, angrycontra said:

If you think humans are boring, you clearly haven't seen enough cool human factions in various fantasy settings.

Maybe. But, on the other hand, I don't like common humans, for that matter, and adore evil ones like Chaos worshippers, for instance. If I liked Khorne I would collect his blood warriors and reavers, they are awesome. 

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5 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

As a Stormcast player, I feel complaints are legitimate. The way GW does releases, is one thing at a time gets the spotlight 99% of the time. Out of the 2 1/2 years of AoS, Stormcast have gotten 3 whole months to themselves. December will be the 4th. Yes, it is just one kit in December, but it could have been a new elf, or ork. I think anything else would have had a warmer reception (though the model does admittedly look pretty awesome). I also understand why GW gives them so much attention. But it will certainly continue to leave a bitter taste in the mouths of people that play armies that have had no support at all.

 

Totally agree with your statement. It also feels refreshing to hear something like this from a Stormcast player. Normally you hear things like "Stop complaining, GW is a business  and they have to generate revenue" etc.

Yes I agree, GW is a business. But that doesn't mean they have to base every single choice on making more money. There are also creative people at GW. And always telling people that GW is a business and has to make money shouldn't be the ultimate final argument. And I still hope at GW there are not only people who base their choices only on how much money they get, but also on the community feedback and on trying new creative things.

At the start of AoS I had the feeling that it was a lot about things like that. It was a lot about creating your own setting and imagining what you want. And I really find it refreshing that someone does not tell the people who complain to shut up, when some people make very legitimate complaints. I think that the complaints about the strong focus on SCE is legitimate and can totally understand everyone who is disappointed by the last six months.

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5 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

Perhaps. But it is not always have to be humans, for they are always everywhere, and it can be a dark knight battling some mist dragon instead of a usual smith's son with a spear against a mighty orc. And the latter is always boring and uninspiring. After all, if we take classics like LotR, there was a team of mighty heroes and not standard workers and dull soldiers. And it was awesome.

I would say two of the most memorable parts of LotR were the Battle for Helms Deep and the Battle of Pelenor Fields. Both of which were won by the faceless soldiers. Even then, the main cast other than Gandalf (and to an extent Aragorn) were normal people. Half of them were highly skilled, and would be heroes in a wargame like AoS. But they were all just normal humans, dwarves, elves and halflings at the end of the day. Which was the point really, with lesser being triumphing over great evils. LotR was mostly Heroic Fantasy with a dash of Swords and Sorcery. AoS without the human element is purely a mix of Mythic Fantasy and Epic Fantasy.

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25 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Both of which were won by the faceless soldiers.

Really? of course not. They were won because mighty heroes were leading them and battling enemy heroes. You surely mistake LotR for something like Game of Thrones.

26 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Even then, the main cast other than Gandalf (and to an extent Aragorn) were normal people. Half of them were highly skilled, and would be heroes in a wargame like AoS. But they were all just normal humans, dwarves, elves and halflings at the end of the day

Because it's not  a high fantasy after all. But they were not normal, they were mighty heroes of their kinds, best of the best, having endured what normal ones would not, and battling unimaginable horrors.

28 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

LotR was mostly Heroic Fantasy with a dash of Swords and Sorcery. AoS without the human element is purely a mix of Mythic Fantasy and Epic Fantasy.

Sorry, but you are wrong in both cases. And yes, high fantasy does not need any "human" elements, it's one its features - to be purely epic. 

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8 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

The problem with that layout is you are comparing a single faction to 3 other whole Grand Alliances. So a real layout could be done in 1 of 2 ways.

Via faction:

January - New kits for Disciples of Tzeentch~6 of them. And new Battle Tome

February/March- New Forgeworld Chaos - 1 unit ,  Stormcasts - 4 new Kits, and New Battle Tome

April/May - New Khorne Battle Tome, Kharadron Overlords 1 Battle Tome, 11 new Kits 

August - Blight war, 1 New kit for Nurgle and Stormcasts 

Previewed - One kit for Khorne, Stormcast and Nighthaunt. 

Via GA:

January - New kits for Chaos ~6 of them. And new Battle Tome

February/March- New Forgeworld Chaos - 1 unit ,  Order - 4 new Kits, and New Battle Tome

April/May - New Chaos Battle Tome, Order 1 Battle Tome, 11 new Kits 

August - Blight war, 1 New kit for Chaos and Order

Previewed - One kit for Chaos, Order, and Death. 


As a Stormcast player, I feel complaints are legitimate. The way GW does releases, is one thing at a time gets the spotlight 99% of the time. Out of the 2 1/2 years of AoS, Stormcast have gotten 3 whole months to themselves. December will be the 4th. Yes, it is just one kit in December, but it could have been a new elf, or ork. I think anything else would have had a warmer reception (though the model does admittedly look pretty awesome). I also understand why GW gives them so much attention. But it will certainly continue to leave a bitter taste in the mouths of people that play armies that have had no support at all.

 

I honestly feel it's extremely disingenuous to call december "the 4th month they had wholy for themselves". As a guy that plays stormcasts I say: yeah, they get too much focus (though it could be as bad as 40k's!) but to say that getting a random model (out of a release of 12 models and a book for another thing!) is getting a whole set of release lots...

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6 hours ago, Infeston said:

Yes I agree, GW is a business. But that doesn't mean they have to base every single choice on making more money.

Actually,  yes it does. Now, it doesn't have to be direct, short term, immediate profit.  A long approach is fine.  In the end,  though, if a business is not thinking cash with every decision, they are not a businesses,  or won't be long.

 

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I always imagined the new releases for stormcast were a kind of vehicle to introduce new factions and new parts of the mortal realms.  Personally I started with SCE and after my KO are done I will be using both frequently.

The big draw to stormcast for me was more than just big armored dudes. It was finally putting order on an even footing with chaos.  At last I can play a "good" army without feeling like telling their story was a waste of time because chaos would win anyway.

As for normal humans if they do come back I hope it's more of a knight theme where regular men (and women, who knows?) wear armor and are mildly intelligent. 

 

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4 hours ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:

I honestly feel it's extremely disingenuous to call december "the 4th month they had wholy for themselves". As a guy that plays stormcasts I say: yeah, they get too much focus (though it could be as bad as 40k's!) but to say that getting a random model (out of a release of 12 models and a book for another thing!) is getting a whole set of release lots...

That is a VERY fair point. But the perception exists that the one model being released in December could have belonged to anyone, "but they picked Stormcast, because Stormcast". And I fully understand that point of view as well. I wont be surprised at all if the Order Herald for Malign Portents turns out to be Stormcast (I would actually be very surprised if its not). But I fully expect and understand people being upset about it.

Plus Stormcast are probably getting at least some other release soonish in the form of a generic Knight Zephyros.

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3 hours ago, Mikester1487 said:

The big draw to stormcast for me was more than just big armored dudes. It was finally putting order on an even footing with chaos.  At last I can play a "good" army without feeling like telling their story was a waste of time because chaos would win anyway.

Thats the exact point they should be representing too :) Which is why I don't mind the Stormcast releases in the slightest.

To me personally the only issue I have with them is how extremely gold they always are. It just looks a bit too much and while the Battletome does contain more paint scheme's Games Workshop seems very much set to have every single one of them promoted with a bright gold look. While working on my Shadespire Stormcast I can only say that it's easy to convert them to your liking. I too expected more upgrade kits but the three there are look good and are good.

While I agree that the Empire vibe doesn't need to be in Age of Sigmar I do think it would have been cool to see the past reflected ever so slightly more in the Stormcast. We see this slowely more and more but honestly I think some Empire heraldy could have remained. There is no reason to not reference to Karl Franz or Valten for example, make them the Stormcast leaders they should likely have become. Obviously they are not on the same level as Sigmar and never where but since the narrative does thake WFB designs into account there is little to no reason to have some Age of Sigmar factions completely removed from them.

Lastly this is also probably the only issue people have with Stormcast, they are the newest, many still see them as the direct cause of WFB demise. This is silly but not unexpected. Khorne doesn't recieve the same hate because they exactly look like what Liber Chaotica Khorne said they should look like, silly helmets and all.

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Honestly , the one  SC model for  December  seems more like a "We should do something for AOS" GW afterthought. I mean the model is 99% reused 3D content from other SC models.  I'd get the feeling that someone had it sitting around already and they released it just to check a "yep, we did something for AOS in December" box.

Mind you, I'm not really complaining. It is an OK-looking model, but most of us could probably put that model together with stuff from our SC bitz boxes at this point. SC are like the old-school Cracker Jack  prizes - there's one in every box...

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I love the Stormcast because of the Dragons, and the Angelic winged models. I like the Deathwatch for being 'My Guys', I like some factions of Space Marines (hate dark angels/space wolves - no Idea why either), mainly due to the Halo effect. I normally hate the 'Paladin' class as they are so shoehorned into being a 'good guy', but I think the lore really helps with liking these factions.

 

16 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

would like some feral Sigmar tribes

Having played the empire for years, I would like nothing more than a Tribal human faction (similar to the pelt wearing warriors of the realm of beasts in the realmgate wars series). However, judging on how the story is going, it seems more likely that we will be getting New (tm) Empire. Which makes sense from a business decision, but is, personally, disappointing. 

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4 hours ago, ZephyrExia said:

Having played the empire for years, I would like nothing more than a Tribal human faction (similar to the pelt wearing warriors of the realm of beasts in the realmgate wars series). However, judging on how the story is going, it seems more likely that we will be getting New (tm) Empire. Which makes sense from a business decision, but is, personally, disappointing. 

I am with you too. This is very disappointing, what to say, especially because we already have the Stormcasts who fulfill this role.

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