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Of Stormcasts and Space Marines


Mr. White

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Just now, Uveron said:

I do not expect we will see raw data. 

It would surprise me if even GW personnel see the raw data.  I expect they are paying consulting fees to make sense of the data.  

I suspect you're right, although I was thinking more along the lines of the army breakdown article that they did on the Warhammer Community site: Nice graphs and some headline numbers.

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7 hours ago, Tzaangor Management said:

I think it'll be interesting to see the results of the survey and I hope they publish them. That said, I hope that they stick to their guns and continue refreshing the factions and alliances rather then going back to what was.

 

I hope too, or AoS will sink as the WHFB did, suffering from ubiquity and non-creativity. If only it all were earlier...

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12 hours ago, Mr. White said:

I'm reminded of this quote in regards to Apple design philosophies:

“The businessman wants to create something for everyone, which leads to products that are middle of the road. It becomes about consensus, and that’s why you rarely see the spark of genius.”

When developing the iPhone Steve Jobs went with a vision, not consumers or feedback. At the time, people did not know that they wanted camera, internet and touch screen on their phone. So, polling the market would not have seen us with smart phones as we have today.

Sort of the same thing here. If asking the community what to do, I'm sure GW will hear more about 'Khemri' or 'Empire' rather than something knew like Stormcasts or Overlords. The latter are entirely new concepts that there wouldn't be consensus on. Plenty of warhammer players know and like Khemri and Empire so would vote that way and they would appear as the most popular or most desired. Again, it's because it is what people know.

AoS is an exciting new setting....let there be a new line. Allow the artists at the GW and Citadel studios create a new fantasy.

I'm on-board with moving forward and innovating. Going without points was a ballsy, refreshing ruleset. It brought me back. Points gives the masses what they want though (and all the balance whining that goes with it). I've conceded that Matched play is going to be the segment GW caters to, but allow them to at least move forward with their new AoS setting vision. The time of foppy hats and feathers should be in the past.

Again, listening to everyone's opinions runs the risk of resulting in either stagnation, bloat, or lack of cohesion.

All this said, the other factions will get updated and support in time. My original point that there needs to be a poster-boy faction still stands to brand the game in the larger market. It's like Mario. He may not be the best character Nintendo has or maybe even your favorite games, but he fills the iconic role that brands their products. Zeldas and Metroids and Splatoons and Arms will all get their due in time. Again, Stormcasts and Space Marines fill that role for GW and GW needs to look to other market leaders such as Apple and Nintendo, not middle of the pack companies like Wyrd Games.

 

The problem is that this is bad business sense. I think you and others underestimate how expensive making a model is. It's very expensive making new plastic molds. Old lines that still sell moderately well will always be around because those molds exist, the investment is made. GW doesn't like risking a mold on a model that ISN'T going to be a hit. And, guess what, it's easy to ask what a person wants. And... well... they have answers. New elves. What kind of elves? Everyone seems to be jazzing cthullu elves. More death. They aren't seeking a consensus, they're seeking a market, not to be all things to all gamers, but to target gamers who are into, say, elves or undead. And this is a very good thing.

 

A lot of businesses that fail do so because they didn't ask their customers. I don't want GW to think it knows better than its consumers, and we'll just buy whatever they put out because they're the biggest game in town. That's the Kirby years. A GW that doesn't talk to the community or give a ****** about gamers, that is old GW. Let's not see that back right?

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The trouble is that “fans” and “consumers” are quite frankly often full of it, especially on the internet, who talk big and fail to put their money where their mouths are and don’t know the difference between a good business decision and their personal desires.  The reason Squats/Tomb Kings/Brettonians no longer exist is because they didn’t sell very well regardless of how much people chunter on the internet.  

Of cause “fans” or “consumers” is too nebulous a grouping to be much use anyway with too many subgroups and no real consensus.  It also ignores new custom who will require very different things from existing hobbyists and who are vital continued existence of the hobby  

Descerning who to listen to is a much harder and selective process (see the consoltation for GHB16).  It must not have escaped anyone’s notice that Mantic does kickstarters when it releases new products to get the money first. 

There’s also a tendency to overstate with a lot of confirmation bias. The total number of people asking for things is usually pretty low when you look a little closer  

Finally if the “fans” knew so much we’d all be playing 9th Age wouldn’t we? 

Edit: In summary far to many claim to be speaking on behalf of the “fans” when really they are only speaking for themselves. 

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letting your current consumer base dictate your business direction is also somewhat regressive, if you were going to listen to anyone it should presumably be the people who aren't engaged with you so as to see how to grow your appeal.

The reality is I so rarely see anyone on the internet clamour for anything other than already rumoured factions, (eg 'grot sky pirates' or 'cthulu aelves') or rehashes of WFB.  If is AoS is to progress as it needs to I think we need to have faith in the design team to produce something more interesting. 

 

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Stormcast aside, all the "new", non-chaos god factions are taking a WHFB element and dialing it up to 11 (i.e. Slayers, Dwarf Flying Machines, Treemen, Black Orcs, etc.).

Therefore, I don't see how expressing a preference for Elf Pirates, Rat Assassins, Religious Zealot Humans, Technology Rats, Witch Elves, Assassin Elves, White Lion Elves, Mutant Rats, Virus Rats  is wrong, as at least some of these will happen for sure. In the two-way relationship GW has with its customers now, public opinion may decide which. Again, it's not telling creatives exactly what to create, but where their preferences lie in terms of what concepts to explore (e.g. Grot Pirates, Aquatic Elves, etc.). The rest is, as it should be, in the hands of the sculptors, artists and writers who can take something as vague as "treemen" and produce Alarielle riding a giant beetle.

Anyway, anyone who thinks Fyreslayers are "new" is kidding themselves. The bulk of the army merely the distillation and expansion of one popular WHFB trope, with the increase in miniature quality that we would expect to see from GW in 2017.

Other factions such as the Sylvaneth and KO were far more of a blank canvas, but were again working out from a kernel that already existed - both in terms of WHFB (treemen/gyrocopters) and fantasy as a whole (Tolkien/steampunk). It's just that GW was able to knock both releases out of the park.

In fact, Ironjawz may be the most generic concept for an army ever. Bish-bash Tolkien-esque orcs that smash people up. Nothing new there.

Except, yet again, GW absolutely nailed the release.

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58 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

Stormcast aside, all the "new", non-chaos god factions are taking a WHFB element and dialing it up to 11 (i.e. Slayers, Dwarf Flying Machines, Treemen, Black Orcs, etc.).

Therefore, I don't see how expressing a preference for Elf Pirates, Rat Assassins, Religious Zealot Humans, Technology Rats, Witch Elves, Assassin Elves, White Lion Elves, Mutant Rats, Virus Rats  is wrong, as at least some of these will happen for sure. In the two-way relationship GW has with its customers now, public opinion may decide which. Again, it's not telling creatives exactly what to create, but where their preferences lie in terms of what concepts to explore (e.g. Grot Pirates, Aquatic Elves, etc.). The rest is, as it should be, in the hands of the sculptors, artists and writers who can take something as vague as "treemen" and produce Alarielle riding a giant beetle.

Anyway, anyone who thinks Fyreslayers are "new" is kidding themselves. The bulk of the army merely the distillation and expansion of one popular WHFB trope, with the increase in miniature quality that we would expect to see from GW in 2017.

Other factions such as the Sylvaneth and KO were far more of a blank canvas, but were again working out from a kernel that already existed - both in terms of WHFB (treemen/gyrocopters) and fantasy as a whole (Tolkien/steampunk). It's just that GW was able to knock both releases out of the park.

In fact, Ironjawz may be the most generic concept for an army ever. Bish-bash Tolkien-esque orcs that smash people up. Nothing new there.

Except, yet again, GW absolutely nailed the release.

This. Most the factions in AoS are based on the old factions. Also I heard  somewhere that the Stormcast Eternals were all based on this model: https://www.games-workshop.com/de-DE/Commander-Dante Because the Dante model was one of the best selling 40k models. So it seems more likely that they haven't really tried being innovative, but designing what was most popular among the fans.

And about the Khemri factions. I don't think that many people want Khemri back. I think this is just a small minority. If you really look at the new factions I think that the Kharadron Overlords seem to be the most innovative faction.

I really don't understand all the comments that GW shouldn't listen to the fans. I saw many companies fail, because they made their own thing and didn't ask their fans what they want. 

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6 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

The trouble is that “fans” and “consumers” are quite frankly often full of it, especially on the internet, who talk big and fail to put their money where their mouths are and don’t know the difference between a good business decision and their personal desires.  The reason Squats/Tomb Kings/Brettonians no longer exist is because they didn’t sell very well regardless of how much people chunter on the internet.  

Of cause “fans” or “consumers” is too nebulous a grouping to be much use anyway with too many subgroups and no real consensus.  It also ignores new custom who will require very different things from existing hobbyists and who are vital continued existence of the hobby  

Descerning who to listen to is a much harder and selective process (see the consoltation for GHB16).  It must not have escaped anyone’s notice that Mantic does kickstarters when it releases new products to get the money first. 

There’s also a tendency to overstate with a lot of confirmation bias. The total number of people asking for things is usually pretty low when you look a little closer  

Finally if the “fans” knew so much we’d all be playing 9th Age wouldn’t we? 

Edit: In summary far to many claim to be speaking on behalf of the “fans” when really they are only speaking for themselves. 

 

That's part of listening to consumers. Studying purchasing patterns IS listening to consumers.

 

Now of course bretonnia specifically was a problem of not getting support meant less people were interested which meant less support. Bretonnia was hot, back when it's codex came out last. But a decade on, of course no one was buying models for a codex that hadn't been updated for 2 editions. Same thing happened with wood elves. If wood elves hadn't squeaked a codex in before 8th edition died, I'm betting Wood elves would have been on the chopping block too.

 

Again, old GW didn't listen to consumers. It specifically refused to even conduct market research and pretended, earnestly, that it wasn't a gaming company, no it was a modeling company. This is why old GW was circling the drain and watching their stocks dribble to nothing.

6 hours ago, BobbyB said:

letting your current consumer base dictate your business direction is also somewhat regressive, if you were going to listen to anyone it should presumably be the people who aren't engaged with you so as to see how to grow your appeal.

The reality is I so rarely see anyone on the internet clamour for anything other than already rumoured factions, (eg 'grot sky pirates' or 'cthulu aelves') or rehashes of WFB.  If is AoS is to progress as it needs to I think we need to have faith in the design team to produce something more interesting. 

 

 

xD Cthulu elves and grot sky pirates are both amazing and I want to see them :P. I think most will agree. I don't actually think grot sky pirates will be a thing though.

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1 hour ago, stratigo said:

xD Cthulu elves and grot sky pirates are both amazing and I want to see them :P. I think most will agree. I don't actually think grot sky pirates will be a thing though.

The rumors about Grot Sky Pirates are also not coming from the fans but from GW itself. The sky grots were mentioned in the Kharadron books. That is why everyone is talking about sky grots. Sky Grots weren't really invented by the fans, but by GW.

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I'm surprised the conversation that began regarding Stormcast has descended so quickly into armchair business planning on GW's behalf, as well as a range of assertions about what works with regards to the AoS aesthetic and what doesn't. Frankly some of these replies are just so full of speculation and opinion (contributing to what exactly? Our imaginations of how GW could or even should work?) that I'm surprised the mods haven't stepped in. The tone of some of the responses here have lacked the open mindedness I've come to expect from TGA.

Right from the start with the release of the compendium scrolls, GW have maintained a refreshingly open stance towards what AoS should be. I'm surprised to hear forum posters say GW should push the aesthetic in a particular direction and away from another. There's simply no need. The Mortal Realms are big enough for all of us - whether they contain forgotten civilizations of men whose forefathers owed their allegiance to the now mysterious entity old scrolls refer to as the empire, or epic fleets of steam powered dwarf pirates, we the gamers are free to tell the stories we want. 

Stormcast for instance don't have to be the guardians of light that they initially seemed. Recent novels have explored the moral ambiguity that clouds the minds of those who's are repeatedly brought back to life. AoS 28 (see the group on FB) has seen some amazing hobby projects in the 'Blanchitsu' style that challenge some of the classic fantasy stereotypes. Anyone who has seen the Aelves  of Black Sloth Hell can attest to that. 

So to reiterate, some of 'GW should listen to the fans' or 'GW should promote its own creativity' arguments just seem like a moot points. It's always going to be a bit of both from their side - their designers are fans too, but undoubtedly (if Kharadron overlords are anything to go by) they want to push the script as to what AoS can be. But the idea that AoS should even be prescriptive or even abandon certain aesthetics just seems unnecessary restrictive to me. I like that AoS still has room for the Oldhammer aesthetic, even if I like where it's going. Let gamers use their old collections and models. Heck knows they take long enough to paint...

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3 hours ago, Pedro_L said:

I'm surprised the conversation that began regarding Stormcast has descended so quickly into armchair business planning on GW's behalf, as well as a range of assertions about what works with regards to the AoS aesthetic and what doesn't. Frankly some of these replies are just so full of speculation and opinion (contributing to what exactly? Our imaginations of how GW could or even should work?) that I'm surprised the mods haven't stepped in. The tone of some of the responses here have lacked the open mindedness I've come to expect from TGA.

I found the discussions to be very productive and open minded. Nowhere I have seen someone attacking another person. Simply because we disagree on different aspects doesn't mean that we aren't open minded.

I have read several posts in this forum and sometimes read that people get called out for spreading negativity just because they criticize something GW does. I know that TGA is a forum which concentrates on positivity and on constructive feedback, but I also have the feeling that some people just use this argument to shut down different opinions, especially about Games Workshop. Nowhere in this thread have I seen people cursing at each other or attacking each other in a non-constructive way. 

Just because we are disagreeing with each other doesn't mean we aren't open.

And if the a topic about Stormcast being the poster boys of AoS changes into a discussion about a discussion about GW's business strategies I personally have no problem with this. Why shouldn't people speculate and discuss about something? Open-mindedness doesn't have to mean that you cannot criticize something. 

I am a little bit concerned about some of the voices which want to shut down each critique which is made. If someone just gives non-constructive feedback or behaves in a bad way I can agree with you that the mods should step in. But nowhere in this thread I found people being like that. But maybe I also have a different view on what is constructive and what not.

But I totally agree with you that they should do both. Listen to the fans and also do their own thing. Like with all things the middle way is best. I think people are just a little bit sad that GW pushed AoS a lot in a direction where it was always about Chaos vs Stormcast. And I think people hope for a change in the narrative. But don't understand me wrong. I am also for a open and constructive atmosphere and want people to discuss with each other. But I also think that a constructive discussion often needs different opinions which challenge each other.

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I hear you @Infeston - my initial comment probably went a bit too far and there is good discussion on this thread and I'd never want to see that curtailed. Perhaps it's more the flippancy with which some expressed views earlier in the thread, but as I said it tends to be fairly uncommon at TGA.

And yeah I sympathise with people who want to see a change of overarching narrative in AoS - but isn't it massively rumoured that 2018 will be the year of Death?

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On 12/5/2017 at 11:46 AM, Infeston said:

The rumors about Grot Sky Pirates are also not coming from the fans but from GW itself. The sky grots were mentioned in the Kharadron books. That is why everyone is talking about sky grots. Sky Grots weren't really invented by the fans, but by GW.

 

GW floats an idea and sees the response it gets. IF it's good, blam, we get a new army.

 

It takes GW roughly 2 years to go from concept to release. You can tell when they decided to launch a model line roughly around where it released. Elves were always in the pipeline though, they're a fantasy staple. I'm honestly shocked we got two different kinds of dwarves before we got any new elves.

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7 hours ago, stratigo said:

It takes GW roughly 2 years to go from concept to release. You can tell when they decided to launch a model line roughly around where it released. Elves were always in the pipeline though, they're a fantasy staple. I'm honestly shocked we got two different kinds of dwarves before we got any new elves.

Fire Slayers were probably in first in  development back in WFB.  Steampunk dwarfs also are such a new idea for GW, that there probably was excitement in the development of the line which helped get it down the creative process quickly and out to market first (and before whatever caused the slow down) 

 

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14 minutes ago, Uveron said:

Fire Slayers were probably in first in  development back in WFB.  Steampunk dwarfs also are such a new idea for GW, that there probably was excitement in the development of the line which helped get it down the creative process quickly and out to market first (and before whatever caused the slow down) 

Kharadron concepts were done by John Blanche years ago.  Wouldn't surprise me to find that most of the stuff we see over the next 3 to 5 years was conceptualised by John or Jes Goodwin a while back.

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4 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

What came out during that really late Wood Elf release?

 

Even earlier. In fact all the 8th books had something that was out of place in WHFB but fits AoS, and models too.

5 minutes ago, Kyriakin said:

Was it just Sylvaneth stuff, or is some of it Wanderers. Or Compendium even?

All the new stuff - eternal guard, rangers, wild riders and sisters of the thorn, Araloth and all the trees. 

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As a Creative Director myself, I have faith in the creativity of GW. I've been on their wild ride since the first crude version of WHFB, and if you step back and look at their trajectory it's quite amazing. Everybody else in this industry just hitches a ride on their wake.

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Does anyone else think that the SCE might have received a more positive reception if they hadn't painted them gold!? I mean nobody likes a guy that shows up to a fight in polished gold armour right?

I had a terrible first reaction to them but it was all about the paint job. I like the concept and i like the models and some of the follow up releases have only reinforced that. I painted mine up in a steel colour palette and i love the way they look. There are dull gold parts on the Primes and Characters but nothing overwhelming. It made all the difference to my attitude to them.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Does anyone else think that the SCE might have received a more positive reception if they hadn't painted them gold!? I mean nobody likes a guy that shows up to a fight in polished gold armour right?

 

No. I think what ever colour they were painted, some players would have been negative about them. Partially due to how the transition into Age of Sigmar happened but also as people would compare them to Space Marines. Personally, if it was me and I could go back and do the release, I would have done a load of video shorts giving a brief glimpse into how we got from Warhammer Fantasy to Age of Sigmar.

There was also a lot of confusion at the time about what exactly GW's stance on it was. Some players saw it as a last swan song for Fantasy and it would get little support whilst GW concentrated on 40K, while others saw it as GW trying to introduce a new way to play. So we got a lot of mixed messages about the game and I think this rubbed some people up the wrong way (although admittedly, some of those people would have moaned if you had given them a brand new army painted by the Eavy Metal team just because it was GW :( ).

 

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Yes I believe that if Games Workshop showed their SCE line in as many colours as they do Space Marines the general view on them would have been very different. The good thing is that GW is looking and listening anyway. Meaning that the initial ideas of bare headed Stormcast allready come out as figures and I'm certain that in 2018 we will see them more represented in non-gold paint jobs aswell.

In reality though every faction who recieves several new additions usually gets the most hate, is true for 40K, AoS and was the case for WFB aswell. It's always the ones who dislike something who put the time and effort into making that noise online ;) . I can very clearly read the same opinions about the Khorne Bloodbound everytime they recieve something. Last example being Shadespire, where the initial reaction was; oh it's the gold and red guys again and the secondary reaction was; oh the gold and red guys get two Warbands again.

For almost all cases there is some designer who made more more sculpts for X as they did for Y and the result of that often leads to more releases at some point in time. I think that any hate on AoS (including SCE) still sparks from WFB's removal.

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