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Malakithe

'Competitive' Ironjawz

956 posts in this topic

Dez    1,661

So I've been thinking about Ardboyz vs Brutes, particularly since points are starting to leak. I've been thinking Ardboyz are the better of the 2 when compared directly because of the extra wounds, as most things are equal between the 2 units.

10 Ardboyz for 180, let's assume they are optimally armed all with Big Choppas.

5 Brutes for 180, optimally armed all with 2 Choppas.

Both units have a 4" move, 4+ save and Bravery 6. 

Ardboyz hit on 4, wound on 3 with a -1 rend and 20 attacks

Brutes hit on 3, wound on 3  with a -1 rend and 20 attacks

The main standout to me is that Brutes have 15 wounds to the Ardboyz 20. The Ardboyz can be buffed significantly by the Warchanter and be taken in the Ardfist formation. You can also take the Brutes with the Warchanter and with a Megaboss' command ability...can't miss and are getting lots of extra attacks. Put them into the Ironfist, and if all Ironjawz keyword you can get an extra 2d6 movement each hero phase if you take the Ravager command trait. That's pretty strong in theory.

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Malakithe    247

Yeah I just learned about that new ability. It's so beautiful when combined with other movement stuff. 20+ brutes moving at d6"+d6"+4". The potential is scary...plus gordrakks 3d6 charge to the battalion. 

Plus artifacts for other heroes. Whatever those do

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Dez    1,661

The Allegiance Trait is Rampaging Destroyers, which give a D6 movement to each unit within 6" of your general in the Hero Phase. Thinking on it, this means you would have to keep Gordrakk back a bit...so you may want to take a Megaboss and make him the general.

Summarized Artefacts:

Hammerblade: Replace one weapons attack profile (not mounts), and instead smash the ground. Every model within 3" rolls a D6, and on a 5/6 take a mortal wound. Kinda meh, but just thought about the base size on Megaboss/Mawkrusha.

Talisman of Protection: on a 4+ ignores Mortal Wounds

Gem of Seeing: Pick a unit within 12", +1 to hit against them

Blade of Vit: Reroll 1 failed to wound for every enemy hero within 12"

Collar of Domination: At the start of the enemy movement phase, pick a Monster within 3". Roll 2d6 and add, if it's higher than it's bravery it must retreat.

Battle Brew: In the hero phase: Take 1 swig, +1 to hit and wound until next hero phase. Take 2 swigs, +2 to hit and wound until next hero phase but suffer a mortal wound in your Hero phase rest of battle. 

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Malakithe    247

From what I read the allegiance thing is general or nearby hero. I think that's what the picture said. So if that's right I can still run a sniper wierdfist and gordrakk. I'm going to run 2 shaman as well bubble wrapped with brutes. If I don't run a wierdfist and run ironfist I'll have wizard support still

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Chris Tomlin    2,854
20 hours ago, Dez said:

So I've been thinking about Ardboyz vs Brutes, particularly since points are starting to leak. I've been thinking Ardboyz are the better of the 2 when compared directly because of the extra wounds, as most things are equal between the 2 units.

10 Ardboyz for 180, let's assume they are optimally armed all with Big Choppas.

5 Brutes for 180, optimally armed all with 2 Choppas.

Both units have a 4" move, 4+ save and Bravery 6. 

Ardboyz hit on 4, wound on 3 with a -1 rend and 20 attacks

Brutes hit on 3, wound on 3  with a -1 rend and 20 attacks

The main standout to me is that Brutes have 15 wounds to the Ardboyz 20. The Ardboyz can be buffed significantly by the Warchanter and be taken in the Ardfist formation. You can also take the Brutes with the Warchanter and with a Megaboss' command ability...can't miss and are getting lots of extra attacks. Put them into the Ironfist, and if all Ironjawz keyword you can get an extra 2d6 movement each hero phase if you take the Ravager command trait. That's pretty strong in theory.

This doesn't take into account the special weapons you can get in the Brute units, which really maximise their damage output.

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N_Watson    271

Would there really be anything wrong with a full ironjawz force if you have gordrakk. 

Potential of 2xd6 movement before movement phase and being able to declare charge in the same turn?  

Something like 3x5 or 1x5 + 1x10 brutes, 2x3 gore gruntas, gordrakk, megaboss, wierdnob, warchanter and a formation is around 2000 points. 

Looking at the bonus to movement stuff, a lot of it is be within 6 inches of general or character/hero. 

Should be able to close the distance quickly with a force like this? 

 

 

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Malakithe    247

That's what I'm thinking now yeah. I can run gordrakk with any battalion and be fine. I'll run different battalions depending on what's going on

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Chris Tomlin    2,854

I hadn't planned to use Gordrakk, but I'm increasingly feeling he's a borderline auto include. Be interesting to see if the Battleplans within the General's Handbook alter peoples opinions on builds.

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Sangfroid    527

I've used Gordrakk in every battle since he came out and here is some little titbits to whet your  waaargh. 

 

Archaon charged 10 ardboyz that I had put Gordrakk behind (so within 3" of the front bases so he could pile in) the boyz lost 5 models to make room for the big man and I managed to get 7 wounds through on Archaon. Next turn then Gordrakk steps up and and with Smasha and Kunnin lay on 17 mortal wounds Archaon rolls out of the box to save 7 of them but Bigteef backhands him and its game over. 

Manfred leaves himself a little exposed and I get Gordrakk in on the charge and take him straight off without getting hit back (he died before I even got to roll all of my attacks) same game I used the command ability on 6 Ironguts who charge a Ghoul King on Terrorgeist then lose 2 guts (I elected to allow Gordrakk to pound manfred first) but the remaining 4 guys put 24 unsaved wounds on the Batman.

he has been taken down though I experimented by giving him his own command ability turn one and yolo charged across the board into 7 blight kings, bloab, harbinger, 7 more blight kings he lasted until turn 4 and killed around 8 of the Kings took the harbinger and bloab down but not dead. This was in part to the formation -1 to hit and the fact they kept healing wounds but was good to see how much damage he can handle. This is also the only game I've lost with Gordrakk as the -1 to hit and heals really hamper the destruction forces who often hit on a 4+ normally. 

His other counter is mortal wounds so I'm guessing if I play a clan Skyre list he will be dead before he can do anything as his large base is going to be difficult to hide. 

On the subject of ardboyz don't forget they get +2 to charge rolls from musician and +2 bravery if within 3" of enemy (so 8 meaning 3 have to die for you to have a chance to fail a battleshock) so I've found they are useful to pin most enemies for at least a turn so you can manoeuvre Gordrakk or Soemthing else in to do the killing, and even though they aren't great they can still put some hurt out with a good volume of attacks and rend. I still lament the loss of the 2s to hit 2s to wound -1 rend awesomeness of their previous incarnation as black orcs in the ironjaws big mob formation and Grimgor Ironhide driving them on,  but I suppose Gordrakk is a fair replacement for this loss to a degree. 

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Chris Tomlin    2,854

@Sangfroid

How have you been fielding your Ardboyz Kieran? I have 10 on my painting desk at the moment. Think I've got as many two handed weapons as you get in the box plus a couple of shields in there.

Think I may have to change my Megaboss for Gordrakk. Seems a much more solid choice. Shame I didn't assemble him that way initially!! Not sure anyone would know the difference between the models though haha!!

Edited by Chris Tomlin

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Malakithe    247

I have more then enough for a full ironjawz allegiance. My theory/plan is to field either a ironfist or wierdfist.

Regardless they would get the free move during the hero phase so that helps. Tactics for each fist are very different thou. Ironfist is fairly straightforward. Move...a lot..and with gordrakk 4-5 units of brutes could get turn 1 charge. 

But then you have the wierdfist. There is something appealing about a 42" green puke sniper that makes me laugh when I think about it. It's all random of course but the potential to snipe any non-mounted hero or whatever with super puke is crazy. Then there is the foot. If it goes off even with +2 to cast roll it will decimate anything.

Either way I'm fielding 4-5 units of brutes bubble wrapping 2 shamans and gordrakk will be running about

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Chris Tomlin    2,854

Sounds fun for sure. Super fun in fact...not convinced it falls under competitive though.

Having played a number of games with Ironjawz, they are disappointing weak. The Brutes can really put out a lot of hurt, but that Bravery 6 is disastrous.

I was very keen to supplement my Ironjawz with other Destruction units, however the new army building restrictions will have a say for sure.

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Sangfroid    527

@Chris Tomlin

 

I made them up as black Orcs so they didn't have specific weapon options other than aesthetics but I tend to have them as 3 10s with one unit all great weapons one all 2 hand weapons and one a mixture of what's left. I also assume command all have great weapons in the mixed and GW units and then 2HW in the other unit (and tell opponent that at the start) I set them up so there is around a 1/2 - 1 one inch gap between 5 models then place the other 5 in snug as possible in the gaps which means when I charge (or am charged) all 10 get to fight. The 2HW guys should do around 10 wounds (to save) the GW unit 7 (but with -1 rend), to me they are good tough basic infantry and pool for pool cost (10 for 8) are the best in all the factions (under scgt at least) 20 wounds 21+ attacks -1 rend 4+ AS and effective 8 bravery in combat. I tend to run a couple of GW war bosses or tyrants in amoung them as these guys can tack on a corner of a combat and really put some hurt out 

as a wider point I really believe that the destruction faction does need to be played as a whole grand alliance faction to get the most out of it competitively 

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Sangfroid    527

Also I've only used a formation once (the ironfist) they get across the board surprisingly fast and if you play for the double turn then with gordrakks command ability the ardboyz have 3d6+2 charge range (that's 12-13" average distance) so all you need is average dice on your run/hero phase movement roles of 7", or your opponent to move even just a few inches forward to take them by surprise the goregruntas even more so than the ardboyz 

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Malakithe    247
9 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:

Also I've only used a formation once (the ironfist) they get across the board surprisingly fast and if you play for the double turn then with gordrakks command ability the ardboyz have 3d6+2 charge range (that's 12-13" average distance) so all you need is average dice on your run/hero phase movement roles of 7", or your opponent to move even just a few inches forward to take them by surprise the goregruntas even more so than the ardboyz 

That's what I'm saying. If the ironfist is used plus the new stuff and if you take the +2 command trait brutes can move a minimum of 8" to a max of 18" on their own. 

With how the matched system works I'll have no choice but to go 100% ironjawz if I want any of their 3 only units to be battline. But with upcoming subfaction abilities plus hero artifacts plus spell lores it's possible to do. 

Gordrakk can't take artifacts but my 2 shaman can. Depending on game sizes for my local group I'll need to snag a foot mega and a warchanter

Edited by Malakithe

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N_Watson    271
4 hours ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Sounds fun for sure. Super fun in fact...not convinced it falls under competitive though.

Having played a number of games with Ironjawz, they are disappointing weak. The Brutes can really put out a lot of hurt, but that Bravery 6 is disastrous.

I was very keen to supplement my Ironjawz with other Destruction units, however the new army building restrictions will have a say for sure.

I haven't found it that bad. I treated to know how many units of brutes you run. 3 wounds a model. Even if you lose two models a roll of 4 or less is a save. 

Also, this is a battle line unit so you can run 3,4, hell 5 if you want. There isn't much out there that can deal with every single unit of brutes you field. 

Looks like there could be more to the rules of independent factions coming to the game as well looking g at the new sylvaneth book. 

Might end up seeing some banners or bonuses to bravery if it is such a problem. 

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Malakithe    247

Thats what I'm doing. 4-5 units of brutes lol it will be scary to see. And gordrakk doing what he does

Edited by Malakithe

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Chris Tomlin    2,854
14 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

as a wider point I really believe that the destruction faction does need to be played as a whole grand alliance faction to get the most out of it competitively 

Yeh I think you may have been the first person I saw doing this to an effective and successful standard. I do think diversifying is important if you want to compete as Ironjawz alone don't cut it (or even close IMO). Even though a solo Ironjawz army is fun, it does actually feel a little lacking in variety to be honest, so competitiveness aside, I think that's another reason for branching out.

Interesting thoughts on the Ardboyz, after reading your post I recall you may have said similar in the thread I open a while back. Just a shame you only get 6 GW's in the box. I think I will take your tip of assuming all command have GW too (I always did that with the Boss anyway, but getting hit with a banner pole or drum seems pretty heavy too, right?!). Means my initial 10 can have 9 GW and then one shield...which I can just take the first wounds on I guess. Good advice on the deployment to maximise attacks - 32mm bases can be a really downside.

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Chris Tomlin    2,854
12 hours ago, N_Watson said:

I haven't found it that bad. I treated to know how many units of brutes you run. 3 wounds a model. Even if you lose two models a roll of 4 or less is a save. 

Also, this is a battle line unit so you can run 3,4, hell 5 if you want. There isn't much out there that can deal with every single unit of brutes you field. 

Looks like there could be more to the rules of independent factions coming to the game as well looking g at the new sylvaneth book. 

Might end up seeing some banners or bonuses to bravery if it is such a problem. 

Yes indeed, but every point you do fail that Battleshock roll by (which you will over a game) really really hurts as unlike a regularly infantry unit you are losing an "elite" 3W model. The bravery 6 really is an issue for these because every one you lose in this way effects the damage output of the unit so hugely. I'd be genuinely surprised if anyone who has played any number of games with them would argue otherwise.

I run 1x 10 with GW and 2x 5 with Choppas at the moment.

It seems the main theory here is battalion + Gordrakk and wing it all forward in a mass alpha strike. That's all well and good but is really dependant on the Battleplan you are playing (kind of a moot conversation at present until we know all the GH Battleplans) as you may need to control areas of the battlefield etc. Also chucking multiple units straight into your opponent isn't always the cleverest idea as presumably they will be set up for any innate buffs to be in effect and if you've double turned, they will also have had a turn to put up any spells/command abilities that may boost their units.

Also, chucking 4-5 units into combat in the same turn isn't necessarily a great plan as you will not get to dictate all the fighting and as previously mentioned, every dead Brute is really detrimental to the unit (and they will die!).

Sure, sometimes you will run in and smash your opponent to bits. Definitely a possibility. Personally though, I think @Sangfroid is more on the mark with his mixed approach.

Maybe I don't have an Orruky enough mindset for you guys! @Malakithe @N_Watson ;) haha! But then, the different ways to play are what makes the game great. I don't think there is a right or wrong way and it could certainly be argued that just chucking the Ironjawz forward in a big green wave is how they are intended and indeed perhaps how you get most out of them!!

I am enjoying this topic though and it's making me wish my Ironjawz were finished so I could use them at Call to War this weekend!

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Dangermouse425    157
41 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

I am enjoying this topic though and it's making me wish my Ironjawz were finished so I could use them at Call to War this weekend!

Same. I definitely need to get my Ironjawz up and running. Maybe for Brothers of Sigmar...?

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Sangfroid    527

I agree with @Chris Tomlin regarding the brutes which is why I haven't bought any.... However with the new GH coming out and mono factions meaning Ardboyz et al are battleline then maybe the way forward with brutes is a big hammer unit 10-15 guys with the 2" range weapons, a screen of ardboyz 3x10 or 2x15 and then goregruntas on one flank (units of 3 with the choppas) then a megaboss to escort the brutes (reroll ones to hit) and then either gorgruntas or a mawcrusha on the other  flank. Obviously you need a general but as a lot of the command abilities are situational so you can inspiring precedence the brute right up until you are ready to strike with them and then use the ardboyz to limit attacks back at them as their 2" range will get over the top of the ardboyz 

i am seriously considering dropping all magic from a pure ironjaws list as the new rule of one means only one mystic shield and the 120 points on a shaman might be better placed towards a megaboss 

 

note this is just pure ironjaws ideas for GH matched play armies 

Edited by Sangfroid
Really bad typing :-)

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Rid    30

I play mono Ironjaw armies and use the ironfist formation for the extra speed on 6 Gruntas, 2x5 Brutes and 2x 10 Ard boys.

I one game so far I've managed to get the massive alpha with Gordrakks ability and it was very successful... I connected with Gordrakk, Gruntas and 3 of the infantry units and killed about 100 dwarves haha. I made sure first combat was the Gruntas against 30 slayers and wiped them out, the dwarves bar the hammerers were not that fearsome on the return tho.

People fear the solid wall of orruks, all with 2+ wounds and decent armour, and with the right buffs your army is much faster than that 4 inch move suggests.

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Chris Tomlin    2,854
2 hours ago, Dangermouse425 said:

Same. I definitely need to get my Ironjawz up and running. Maybe for Brothers of Sigmar...?

Yeh this is my plan. I'm gonna bring the Ironjawz, whilst Paddy packs the Moonclan.

2 hours ago, Sangfroid said:

I agree with @Chris Tomlin regarding the brutes which is why I haven't bought any.... However with the new GH coming out and mono factions meaning Ardboyz et al are battleline then maybe the way forward with brutes is a big hammer unit 10-15 guys with the 2" range weapons, a screen of ardboyz 3x10 or 2x15 and then goregruntas on one flank (units of 3 with the choppas) then a megaboss to escort the brutes (reroll ones to hit) and then either gorgruntas or a mawcrusha on the other  flank. Obviously you need a general but as a lot of the command abilities are situational so you can inspiring precedence the brute right up until you are ready to strike with them and then use the ardboyz to limit attacks back at them as their 2" range will get over the top of the ardboyz 

i am seriously considering dropping all magic from a pure ironjaws list as the new rule of one means only one mystic shield and the 120 points on a shaman might be better placed towards a megaboss 

note this is just pure ironjaws ideas for GH matched play armies 

If you have the Brutes in units of 10 or more you definitely want the Jagged Gore Hackas (plus they look awesome!!!) and having a Megaboss (and Warchanter) in tow is definitely recommended. Makes for a decent unit, though you pretty much need to use your command ability to keep them immune to Battleshock (see my previous posts re this!!) as you said. Utilising them in tandem with the Ardboyz is a nice idea though.

I haven't assembled any Gore Gruntas yet, though I do have one box. The Choppas are defo a better option but again, the other option looks way cooler....however, we are talking competitive I suppose!!

Going without magic in pure Ironjawz isn't a bad shout actually...the amount of times that Weirdnob has done more damage to me from repeatedly rolling doubles is pretty annoying. That said, as I mentioned above you are limited in terms of variety and the Weirdnob is a great looking model so it's kind of worth including him on that basis alone (though perhaps against the ethos of this thread!!)

Edited by Chris Tomlin

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Malakithe    247

I'm of a different mindset I guess. This entire discussion is, for me, mostly theory about possible matched play. A mixed destruction force might be optimal but with the new allegiance stuff it looks like it will be better to go solo subfaction. Soon enough each subfaction will have its own allegiance abilities, command traits, artifacts, and spell lores. 

For me wizard support is a must. At 120pts I'm taking 2 shaman no matter what. Green puke can snipe non-mounted heroes and if foot can be cast will reduce anything to paste. As ironjawz what kind of unique exclusive spells would the shaman have beyond puke and foot? Off the top of my head I'm guessing more movement, attacks, battleshock, Ward saves...basically frenzy battle spells. 

Tactics of course will change. One battleplan might have me running a ironfist+gordrakk so I can sprint across the table. Others I might want to be more tactical so I would take the wierdfist. With 4 units around the shaman green puke becomes a sniper. 42" range. D3+0 to 4. That's a dead any non-mounted hero. Or a 42" foot of d6+whatever with possibility to recast. I've heard of a super foot taking down some big guys. He'll even a wierdfist they can all move at a minimum, due to allegiance, 7".

What would a mixed destruction force look like? 3 battline units of normal weak orruk boyz then you can bring in whatever I suppose. Of course almost none of it will have synergy. Mono faction armies are coming soon and my super speedy brutes and super charged shamans will be ready.

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