Cave squigs vs squig hoppers

[Killacat]

I'm new to warhammer and venturing down a very squiggly path. Im unsure about the pros and cons with using each unit. 

[Malakree]

So the first thing to note is that to really get the effectiveness you want out of a unit of squigs you will also need a unit of squig herders. As a result both work out approximately 80points. The Cave squigs are slightly less because you don't need them at 1-1 but it's close enough.

So comparision of Basic Stats.

• 5" move speed vs 2d6".
  There is a 16.6% chance that your Squig Hoppers will be slower than your Cave Squigs on any given turn. 
  On the other hand there is a 72% chance your Hoppers will be faster on any given turn.
  As a general rule the squig hoppers will be better but there is always that 1 game where they will move 2" every turn.
• Save and wounds wise they are the same.
• 1 lower bravery for the cave squigs but bravery 3 vs bravery 4 is pittance on what is really a swarm unit.
• Both Gobs of teeth are similar in stats, Really it's 2 attacks 1 damage vs 1 attack D3 damage. That will average out about the same.
• The Squig Riders attack is pretty bad but functions as a random bonus attack for your squigs.
  The Herders have ever so slightly better attack stats but You don't ever want them in combat. 
  In this regard The squig riders come out ahead just because the herders should be avoiding combat.

The big weakness of a cave squig unit is the fact that all it's bonuses are situational, that situation being bad. Losing the Herders nearby hacks into their ability meaning they have a huge weak spot, the 4+ mortal wound also only occurs when a model flees meaning that on average you will get 1 mortal wound for every 4 models.

On the other hand the Squig Hoppers only special rule is strictly an advantage, when it goes off they become far more dangerous. Their biggest weakness is the 2d6 movement potentially ****** you. Fortunately there is an answer.

In my opinion, go for the squig hoppers and grab the Squiggly Warboss. The low bravery is going to hurt but you're play grots, you're screwed on that front no matter what happens.

[Killacat]

7 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So the first thing to note is that to really get the effectiveness you want out of a unit of squigs you will also need a unit of squig herders. As a result both work out approximately 80points. The Cave squigs are slightly less because you don't need them at 1-1 but it's close enough.

So comparision of Basic Stats.

• 5" move speed vs 2d6".
  There is a 16.6% chance that your Squig Hoppers will be slower than your Cave Squigs on any given turn. 
  On the other hand there is a 72% chance your Hoppers will be faster on any given turn.
  As a general rule the squig hoppers will be better but there is always that 1 game where they will move 2" every turn.
• Save and wounds wise they are the same.
• 1 lower bravery for the cave squigs but bravery 3 vs bravery 4 is pittance on what is really a swarm unit.
• Both Gobs of teeth are similar in stats, Really it's 2 attacks 1 damage vs 1 attack D3 damage. That will average out about the same.
• The Squig Riders attack is pretty bad but functions as a random bonus attack for your squigs.
  The Herders have ever so slightly better attack stats but You don't ever want them in combat. 
  In this regard The squig riders come out ahead just because the herders should be avoiding combat.

The big weakness of a cave squig unit is the fact that all it's bonuses are situational, that situation being bad. Losing the Herders nearby hacks into their ability meaning they have a huge weak spot, the 4+ mortal wound also only occurs when a model flees meaning that on average you will get 1 mortal wound for every 4 models.

On the other hand the Squig Hoppers only special rule is strictly an advantage, when it goes off they become far more dangerous. Their biggest weakness is the 2d6 movement potentially ****** you. Fortunately there is an answer.

In my opinion, go for the squig hoppers and grab the Squiggly Warboss. The low bravery is going to hurt but you're play grots, you're screwed on that front no matter what happens.

Thanks a ton for the feedback, so do cave squigs and squig hoppers fulfill the same role on the battlefield?

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Killacat said:

Thanks a ton for the feedback, so do cave squigs and squig hoppers fulfill the same role on the battlefield?

Uh sort of, the points costs are similar and both are battleline for moonclan so they are inevitably compared against each other. 

Realistically you are going to want at least one giant block of grots, possibly 2, just for the fanatics. That means your squig units will be flanking or cavalry and in that role the hoppers will do you better. You could potentially have a unit of cave squigs you push up in front of the grot units without squig herders but for that just take the third max str unit of grots. They are the same cost points-->wounds, have better moral while being slaughtered by ranged, and with shields+icon they will be at 4+ saves in the shooting phase.

As a result they will both end up in the same role at which you will just get more out of the hoppers. If you are going pure Squigs the cave squigs might go up in value a bit just because you can really load up on the herders making them far harder to snipe off. Equally though 3 max str units of Hoppers with a Squig Boss is going to get up the board faster and be more stable when it gets there.

Roll in 4 mangler squigs with them and the cave squigs will have problems keeping up.

Allegiance: Destruction
Grot Warboss On Great Cave Squig (120)
- Moon Cutta & Git Shield 
20 x Grot Squig Hoppers (320)
15 x Grot Squig Hoppers (240)
60 x Moonclan Grots (360)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields 
Mangler Squigs (240)
Mangler Squigs (240)
Mangler Squigs (240)
Mangler Squigs (240)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 2000 / 2000
 

As a really basic example.

[Sheriff]

I did the math and sadly its squigs alone, by a mile. The hoppers WOULD have synergy but the hero squig hopper is wrongly written, only buffing movement not charge rolls for the hoppers, so they are useless, relatively. They do roughly equal damage, buff-less, but then the cave squigs do damage when they die in addition, wrecking things. 

[Malakree]

5 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

I did the math and sadly its squigs alone, by a mile. The hoppers WOULD have synergy but the hero squig hopper is wrongly written, only buffing movement not charge rolls for the hoppers, so they are useless, relatively. They do roughly equal damage, buff-less, but then the cave squigs do damage when they die in addition, wrecking things. 

Quote

Squigs Go Wild: Roll a dice each time a Cave Squig flees, before it is removed from the battlefield

It's when they flee not when they die right?

[Killacat]

17 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Uh sort of, the points costs are similar and both are battleline for moonclan so they are inevitably compared against each other. 

Realistically you are going to want at least one giant block of grots, possibly 2, just for the fanatics. That means your squig units will be flanking or cavalry and in that role the hoppers will do you better. You could potentially have a unit of cave squigs you push up in front of the grot units without squig herders but for that just take the third max str unit of grots. They are the same cost points-->wounds, have better moral while being slaughtered by ranged, and with shields+icon they will be at 4+ saves in the shooting phase.

As a result they will both end up in the same role at which you will just get more out of the hoppers. If you are going pure Squigs the cave squigs might go up in value a bit just because you can really load up on the herders making them far harder to snipe off. Equally though 3 max str units of Hoppers with a Squig Boss is going to get up the board faster and be more stable when it gets there.

Roll in 4 mangler squigs with them and the cave squigs will have problems keeping up.

Allegiance: Destruction
Grot Warboss On Great Cave Squig (120)
- Moon Cutta & Git Shield 
20 x Grot Squig Hoppers (320)
15 x Grot Squig Hoppers (240)
60 x Moonclan Grots (360)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields 
Mangler Squigs (240)
Mangler Squigs (240)
Mangler Squigs (240)
Mangler Squigs (240)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 2000 / 2000
 

As a really basic example.

I was going a sort of mixed destruction focusing on flanking around the enemy and keeping their big things bogged down to them get destroyed. Also cool factors in a lot . 

My list is...:

 

 

da%20great%20waaaaagh%21%21%21%21%21.pdf

[Sheriff]

Just now, Malakree said:

It's when they flee not when they die right?

Ah yeah I meant that. Regardless, its what makes them superior and more reliable to the hoppers. 

I bought hoppers and was determined to have them in my army (my favourite unit in Total War), but they just aren't worth the points when you can have the bitey mortal woundy ones. 

[Killacat]

But I'm just not sure which one

[Malakree]

Just now, Sheriff said:

Ah yeah I meant that. Regardless, its what makes them superior and more reliable to the hoppers. 

I bought hoppers and was determined to have them in my army (my favourite unit in Total War), but they just aren't worth the points when you can have the bitey mortal woundy ones. 

Hmmm really, so you take them without the squig herders then?

 

Just now, Killacat said:

But I'm just not sure which one

Can't read your lists  

[Killacat]

Grot big boss(moon prodda and gobbla)

moonclan grot x20 x2

arachnarok with shaman

grot fanatics x3 x2

 

860/1250 points so far

i also have some other units that I could sub in 

brutes min

megaboss on foot

spider riders x10

[Malakree]

@KillacatFew quick questions.

1. Is it 2 battleline or 3?
2. How many points of allies are you allowed, is it more than 280?
3. Do you have any preference for what you would like to use out of the options you have.
4. Is there anything you don't have that you want to use.
5. What is your end goal for the army.

[Killacat]

1 minute ago, Malakree said:

@KillacatFew quick questions.

1. Is it 2 battleline or 3?
2. How many points of allies are you allowed, is it more than 280?
3. Do you have any preference for what you would like to use.

It's minimum of 2 battlelines

im going destruction grand alliance hence no squigs for battleline

 preferences are: must use the arachnarok, it is my all time favorite models, and the skarsnik model. Other then that, anything but ogors 

[Malakree]

So I see a few routes you could go. You're base is already solid so on that front you're good to go.

Quote

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Grot Warboss (120)
- Moon Prodder & Giant Cave Squig 
Arachnarok Spider With Grot Shaman (280)

Battleline
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields 
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields 
10 x Grot Spider Riders (200)
- Spiderfang Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Ironjawz Battleline

Units
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1240 / 1250
Allies: 0 / 400
 

Quote

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Grot Warboss (120)
- Moon Prodder & Giant Cave Squig 
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
Arachnarok Spider With Grot Shaman (280)
Grot Big Boss On Gigantic Spider (100)
- General 

Battleline
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields 
20 x Moonclan Grots (130)
- Pokin Spears & Moon Shields 
10 x Grot Spider Riders (200)
- Spiderfang Battleline

Units
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)
3 x Grot Fanatics (100)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1240 / 1250
Allies: 0 / 400

Are two obvious ones. The first is just the brutes for some sort of monster killing.

The second is leaning more on the spiderfang stuff grabbing a general and a moonclan wizard to do dirty mortal wound type things.

 

For your pin and flank strategy the second will work better. Your army nicely fits into 2 components which each do one half of that well. 

[Sheriff]

5 minutes ago, Killacat said:

It's minimum of 2 battlelines

im going destruction grand alliance hence no squigs for battleline

 preferences are: must use the arachnarok, it is my all time favorite models, and the skarsnik model. Other then that, anything but ogors 

From what you've got you have a solid front line of grots battleline and reliable  damage from the fanatics. You need to add some higher movement DPS units that can get some buffs of some sort, so given that you want to use the Moonclan general then this makes it an easy choice - get some squigs (or hoppers if you like them enough). You'll also want something tanky, so the arachnarok is great for that although it does benefit much more from the Spiderfang general's damage buff (who is also way more tanky than the Moonclan one). 

Well worth getting a couple of Moonclan Shamen too. They are still great value, much like the Fanatics for spitting out great damage, even if they die after or distract the enemy from the real damage units. 

Your force so far is much like mine except I chose the spider skill tree instead of the squig one. 

Not really experimented with Moonclan damage units so I'm obviously biased! From what I gather, the Moonclan general can only buff one unit per turn, so you ideally want to throw one beatstick unit into the enemy per turn, whilst holding the line with grots (and fanatics). But as I've learned this isn't Total War and you actually need two seperate cohesive armies on the table (for objectives), not one blob of death. Maybe a squig hopper flank squad would be good for this? 

[Killacat]

2 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

From what you've got you have a solid front line of grots battleline and reliable  damage from the fanatics. You need to add some higher movement DPS units that can get some buffs of some sort, so given that you want to use the Moonclan general then this makes it an easy choice - get some squigs (or hoppers if you like them enough). You'll also want something tanky, so the arachnarok is great for that although it does benefit much more from the Spiderfang general's damage buff (who is also way more tanky than the Moonclan one). 

Well worth getting a couple of Moonclan Shamen too. They are still great value, much like the Fanatics for spitting out great damage, even if they die after or distract the enemy from the real damage units. 

Your force so far is much like mine except I chose the spider skill tree instead of the squig one. 

Not really experimented with Moonclan damage units so I'm obviously biased! From what I gather, the Moonclan general can only buff one unit per turn, so you ideally want to throw one beatstick unit into the enemy per turn, whilst holding the line with grots (and fanatics). But as I've learned this isn't Total War and you actually need two seperate cohesive armies on the table (for objectives), not one blob of death. Maybe a squig hopper flank squad would be good for this? 

What army are you running and is there any reason you like the spiders more then the squigs

[Sheriff]

20 minutes ago, Killacat said:

What army are you running and is there any reason you like the spiders more then the squigs

I chose it purely on theory not practice so I may be wrong. The main benefit I see in the spiders is that the spider general gives an AOE buff that basically doubles the damage of all spider models around it, plus a further double damage buff on a single unit from the Arachnarok (so quadruple damage). So it pays to invest heavily in spiders, not just a bit. If you invest in a couple of arachnaroks and a big spider rider unit (or 2 small ones) then they wreck stuff fast on the tabletop. Also the arachnaroks are a way tankier choice than the squig equivalent choices (as is the general). Grots need a tanky frontline to make up for their terribad bravery and saves. Oh and arachnaroks basically have 2 wizards on them. 

I think a Moonclan battletome and allegiance ability could turn all this on it's head though, so go your own way grot-brother! I've only played a few games so don't really know what I'm talking about, I just know the spiderbros wreck the enemy fast (esp high armor ones). 

My theory (untested) is that you only really need about 1100pts of  Spiderfang to maximise realistic value of the general's AOE buff, and then you pad the rest of the 800ps out with tanky allies and mobs of Moonclan to hold stuff and protect your squishy spiders. 

My 1k army is:

• Spiderfang boss on giant spider
• Arachnarok with shaman
• 2 x 20 moonclan grots
• 3 fanatics
• 10 spiderfang spider riders

Upgrading to 2k will add:

• 15 spider riders
• 20 grots
• 1 arachnarok
• 3 trolls

If you have Twitch then I recommend watching the Heat 3 final game where Moonclan won - its great for showing what they can do and how they play. 

[Malakree]

I will echo something sherrif just said. 

There are a few factions which are conspicuous by their absence in the GHB2017 for allegiance abilities. Those being most of the destruction lists. If you then add in that some of the models are really showing their age alongside the huge amount of square base models we still have. Destruction looks like it needs a tune up early next year, especially the none IJ/BS alleigances.

[Strammefar]

One more nice thing about Squig Hoppers: It seems that they can hide fanatics.

[Sheriff]

8 minutes ago, Strammefar said:

One more nice thing about Squig Hoppers: It seems that they can hide fanatics.

I've been thinking about this and can't see how it would actually be a benefit compared to using regular grots for fanatics. Thing with the grot cavalry is its super squishy, and relatively expensive compared to grots, so when you release fanatics they must strike first, then your enemy will stomp your cavalry. Its horrifying to watch 200 points of cavalry get deleted before they attack, all because of the fanatics. 

Whereas with grots, the grots the die, or the fanatics die (after wrecking face). That's their job.

I guess you could use tiny units of hoppers as fanatic-delivery units, cheaper than regular grots. But then they could easily be wiped out along with the fanatics. 

[Malakree]

35 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

I've been thinking about this and can't see how it would actually be a benefit compared to using regular grots for fanatics. Thing with the grot cavalry is its super squishy, and relatively expensive compared to grots, so when you release fanatics they must strike first, then your enemy will stomp your cavalry. Its horrifying to watch 200 points of cavalry get deleted before they attack, all because of the fanatics. 

Whereas with grots, the grots the die, or the fanatics die (after wrecking face). That's their job.

I guess you could use tiny units of hoppers as fanatic-delivery units, cheaper than regular grots. But then they could easily be wiped out along with the fanatics. 

One thing you can do is have a couple of smaller units of fanatics in the army and a few small units of squig hoppers. Since your opponent doesn't actually know which units have fanatics in them (and you can change that during deployment) a seemingly irrelevant unit can suddenly threaten to have them in.

Basically the return of old fashion mind games, where are the fanatics hiding.

[Sheriff]

11 minutes ago, Malakree said:

One thing you can do is have a couple of smaller units of fanatics in the army and a few small units of squig hoppers. Since your opponent doesn't actually know which units have fanatics in them (and you can change that during deployment) a seemingly irrelevant unit can suddenly threaten to have them in.

Basically the return of old fashion mind games, where are the fanatics hiding.

Yeah making the enemy nervous and unsure and therefore limit their choices somehow is always a good thing, but isn't this sill the case with hiding them in one of your three grot units? 

I guess its also possible to hide fanatics within fanatics within fanatics within fanatics within fanatics within fanatics within ... 

[Malakree]

51 minutes ago, Sheriff said:

Yeah making the enemy nervous and unsure and therefore limit their choices somehow is always a good thing, but isn't this sill the case with hiding them in one of your three grot units? 

I guess its also possible to hide fanatics within fanatics within fanatics within fanatics within fanatics within fanatics within ... 

Specifically it makes the small units of hoppers more of a threat. Not sure if that matters or not. There's always that occasion when you do get to hide them in a unit of hoppers and then spring them on the enemies back line. 

Options are never bad but I don't play them enough to know.

And yes the idea of a group of 6 fanatics unleashing another group of fanatics is ridiculous  

[Sheriff]

Just now, Malakree said:

Specifically it makes the small units of hoppers more of a threat. Not sure if that matters or not. There's always that occasion when you do get to hide them in a unit of hoppers and then spring them on the enemies back line. 

Options are never bad but I don't play them enough to know.

And yes the idea of a group of 6 fanatics unleashing another group of fanatics is ridiculous  

There are no bad options with fanatics really. I always enjoy interrupting an enemy when they are about to roll a charge dice. 

 

[Malakree]

I actually looked at nasty skulkers for my Gitmob Grots, I am planning on expanding my Ironjawz out to have all the allies I want which will quite nicely lead into some other destruction armies. Gitmob, Greenskinz and Bonesplitterz are the three which are going to be the primary choice I think.

Nasty Skulkers seem like they could be hilarious to have 9 suddenly jump out and gank a hero.