Which orcs for mixed destruction

[bsharitt]

My next army is going to be a generic Destruction army with a big mix of the various races(relax, it's not for tournament play, but still matched play legal for ease of pickup games). For the base battle lines I'm looking for at least 3 with goblins, ogres and orc represented. For the goblins, I've already got the moonclan grots, for ogres it's be the basic ogres, but for orcs I'm trying to decide between Greenskinz and Savage orcs. The lack of generic battleline makes Ironjawz a no go, plus they don't quite my aesthetic idea of orcs in a fantasy setting. So plain Greenskins orc don't have great stats, but are really cheap and they look almost exactly how I expect an orc to look. Statwise, savage orcs are better and while more expensive, no that much more, and maybe worth the cost. They don't fit my ideal aesthetic of orcs, but are close enough considering the wandering mixed race horde(relax Blizzard, just a horde, not The Horde).

There's also the consideration of how I'm going to be buying them. For the greenskinz, I'd probably take a look at the start collecting box for them and integrate some of that into the army as well, especially as it goes above 1000 points.  So if there's anything there worth running, maybe the (it seems to me so far) less optimal greenskins might be better than savage orcs. For the savage orcs, I'd be buying the 20 man box and it wouldn't really steer my army an any particular direction from there.  Beyond the core goblins, orgres and orcs, I've also got some squigs, Stone Trolls, and the only other thing I know I'll be buying the way to 2000 is a giant(I'll probably get the two pack, but likely will do one as a chaos giant).

[Malakree]

Normal Greenskinz should be fine. The start collecting box has the 2 Warbosses in it, I'm buying it at some point just for those, which with the great Waaagh! banner is amazing. As long as you aren't looking to max out the unit of Greenskinz Orruks it should be fine cost wise and at 90 points they are  cheap easy way to get a battleline unit. 

The boars and chariot are a nice to have, giving you a bit of unit variety.

If you aren't looking for hyper competitive go for the various boxes that are out. All of them are amazing value and will bulk up your army with a nice wide variety.

• https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Spiderfang-Grotz-Venom-Clan - Solid monster/cav and the arachnarok with shaman on is 2 spells a turn!
• https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ironjawz-Weirdnob-Warband - I'd really recommend 1 (maybe 2) of these. The weirdnob goes amazingly well with greenskinz and 10 brutes will give you the biggest ardest killing unit ever. 
• https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Start-Collecting-Greenskinz - You know about these. As I said above, Warboss with Great Waaagh! banner is king with all orruks. A block of 40 Orruks goes fantastic with a weirdnob in them, give them spears and you're good to go.

You said you didn't really want Ironjawz so skip the SC:IJ, The second Weirdnob warband is if you want to field the unit of 10 brutes. If you only buy the one, magnatise the arms and give them dual wield, that will let you swap to 2h if you do want to use a bigger block later. 

Don't underestimate the power of Greenskinz Orruks, they might not look great on paper but with Spears and Mob Rule they will put out a lot of attacks which aren't terrible. Throw in that Great Waaagh! banner and maybe the CA from a Warboss on Wyvern they can pump it. As I said above as well, they are fantastic for powering up a weirdnob shaman or 2. 

If you take the with 2 cuttas with a waaagh! banner behind them they are rerolling 1s both to hit and to wound which doesn't quite make them 3+ but is still a solid statline.

[PlasticCraic]

Yeah I'd agree with Malakree here, the Greenskinz orcs are probably better for your needs.  They only have the one wound, but they have a better save (significantly better if you take the shields), and have access to rend if you want to go that way.  90 points vs 120 is actually a decent saving.

And as Malakree also pointed out, the Waaagh! banner from the SC Greenskinz set is worth having, as is the chariot.  With the dual Warboss kit, I personally modelled the one on Boar as having the Banner, and that's the one I actually use as a Warboss.  The one on foot I just use as a unit champion.  It makes  your buff piece that much more mobile (and gives him a couple more attacks), there's no reason not to do it.

I have a similar force that I play sometimes purely for the lulz.  The Warboss can synergise quite nicely with Big Stabbas (every extra attack with them is dynamite), although it was better still when Bellowing Tyrant gave them the +1 to hit! 

You can get some synergies in there with the Shaman and the Warboss, but really you're playing an army like this for the love.  I also run some Fimir for Hero Quest nostalgia.  They're quite expensive from FW, but the models are badass.

[Malakree]

15 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

90 points vs 120 is actually a decent saving.

If you're going up to max unit size, which you should, the Greenskinz are 320 for 40 and the bonesplitterz are 300 for 30.

One super important thing to note is that the bonesplitterz lose quite a bit of power if they don't have the allegiance. With it their 6+ save can't be removed so they ignore rend, without it they lose their save if a pointy weapon looks in their direction.

 

[PlasticCraic]

20 minutes ago, Malakree said:

If you're going up to max unit size, which you should, the Greenskinz are 320 for 40 and the bonesplitterz are 300 for 30.

One super important thing to note is that the bonesplitterz lose quite a bit of power if they don't have the allegiance. With it their 6+ save can't be removed so they ignore rend, without it they lose their save if a pointy weapon looks in their direction.

 

Depends what you mean by "should"...if this is meant to be a fun and diverse army, which it is, you might not want to sink so many points into very pedestrian battleline units.  If you're looking to chuck in some cheap bodies and leave more room for the fun stuff (Gargants, Spiders, etc), then the minimum cost and unit size is very relevant.

Savage Orruks do have a 5+ save in combat. but you are right in what you say about their durability without the allegiance.  The 2 wounds is eye catching, but they're really not that durable, especially without the allegiance.  

[bsharitt]

Nice, it looks like I'll be picking up the Start Collecting Greenskinz box in the next few weeks. Really for the best as I think they match the ogres and moonclan and bit more closely than bonesplitterz. So if I take that whole box and add it to my grot warboss, unit of moonclan grots, unit of squigs, and unit of rock gut troggoths, I'd have right at 1040 points before I even buy ogres. To get to 1000 points of less I could drop the squigs to go to 980, or drop one of the orc war bosses for 900 or the grot warboss for 920. If I dropped one of those warbosses, any suggestions for 80 or 100 points?  I thought about dropping one of the orc warbosses(maybe do like @PlasticCraic said and give the banner to boar warboss and run him alone for now) and add grot fanatics, not that it'll be a surprise which unit they're hiding in, but I like the models and they're cheap. Or maybe keep both orc warbosses and replace the grot warboss(mine does not have the squig, so he's overcosted in GHB17) with a moon clan shaman.

[GrogBusta]

Point to point savage Orruk's are more resilient and Orruk's are more choppy.

In my point of view if you need an anvil go for savage Orruk's, if you are lack of punch then pick the Orruk's

[Malakree]

10 minutes ago, GrogBusta said:

Point to point savage Orruk's are more resilient and Orruk's are more choppy.

In my point of view if you need an anvil go for savage Orruk's, if you are lack of punch then pick the Orruk's

http://tools.druchii.net/AoS-Combat-Calculator.php

Are Savage Orruk's more resilient though? So if we do 60 attacks against Savage Orruks (Left) and against Orruks with Shields (Right). 

Against no Rend Shooting Attacks

So here we see that the savage orruks are taking an average of 50 wounds, leaving them with 10 wounds or 5 models, while the Greenskinz are taking a similar average of 40 wiping them out. So against shooting it's clear the extra wounds of the Savage Orruks wins out.

Against Rend 1 shooting

Kind of a joke comparison but both units are wiped out. Largely irrelevant.

Against no Rend Melee

So the savage Orruks take around 40 wounds, leaving 20 wounds or 10 models. The Greenskinz Orruks are taking a similar average of 27 wounds, leaving 13 wounds/models. Again the superior wounds total of the savage orruks appears to win here again.

Against 1 Rend Melee

Almost the same result as against no rend shooting. 

Against Combat with Mystic Shield Applied

30 wounds against 15, this is the first value at which the Greenskinz Orruks are tankier.

Conclusion

Yep you are right, the extra wounds for Savage Orruks do make the difference. 

[broche]

there is a small flaw in your no rend melee analysis. 13 orruk in combat phase is close to 30 effective wound (same as savage orruk)

effective wound is a better metric to find unit resistance

exemple, agains no rend:

40 orcs are 60 effective wound and shoot, 90 in melee. 30 savage orruk is 72 agains shooting (better than orruk), 90 in melee (same)

[Malakree]

Yeah I picked 60 wounds because it was easiest to work with. It gave a flat baseline with no questions. Also why I stated at the start of the post exactly what I was doing.