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Planar

Hy GW I thnik you need a document control system for your warscrolls :)

47 posts in this topic

Planar    57

I wonder if anyone else thinks this is a good idea.

I just checked the Stonehorn warscroll on GW website this morning. To my (mild) surprise the site still lists the old warscroll (before the nerfs). All the changes are still only on the FAQ. This strikes me as counter efficient and confusing especially for new players.

It really puzzles me why GW is not adopting a simple document control system based on revisions. Instead of using the FAQs for updates they could simply update the actual warscroll and put a revision number on each new version.

Then they could keep a public register where they would mention which is the latest (and valid) version for each warscroll.

This sort of document control system is really easy to manage and allows to have all the useful information were it should be (i.e. on actual warscroll) instead of an obscure FAQ document.

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Gaz Taylor    665

I think there are easily over 1000 warscrolls so it’s not an easy task. Plus coming up with some sort of document management system isn’t cheap or easy. If they were going to do it, they could do it in a similar war as Magic the Gathering with a version number in the header or footer, but then you need to revisit every scroll. 

So what would you rather GW do? Do this and add a version number or continue coming up with new models and cool stuff for the game? 😉

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Marc Wilson    312
6 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I think there are easily over 1000 warscrolls so it’s not an easy task. Plus coming up with some sort of document management system isn’t cheap or easy. If they were going to do it, they could do it in a similar war as Magic the Gathering with a version number in the header or footer, but then you need to revisit every scroll. 

So what would you rather GW do? Do this and add a version number or continue coming up with new models and cool stuff for the game? 😉

Well...I don't think one precludes the other, Gaz ;) It's a legitimate concern and a scratch not itched for two years. The could put a diligent intern on it for 3 months on slave labour rates.

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15 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I think there are easily over 1000 warscrolls so it’s not an easy task. Plus coming up with some sort of document management system isn’t cheap or easy. If they were going to do it, they could do it in a similar war as Magic the Gathering with a version number in the header or footer, but then you need to revisit every scroll. 

So what would you rather GW do? Do this and add a version number or continue coming up with new models and cool stuff for the game? 😉

As someone who works in IT biased project management I can assure you this is a relatively easy task that is commonly done by most businesses. 

It can be easily seen that GW lack business management techniques in some areas (notably AoS) which I constantly find surprising. 

Someone at GW needs to employ a PRINCE2 and ITIL specialist. 

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Planar    57
9 minutes ago, Marc Wilson said:

Well...I don't think one precludes the other, Gaz ;) It's a legitimate concern and a scratch not itched for two years. The could put a diligent intern on it for 3 months on slave labour rates.

I am working closely with Quality Control guys and Document Controllers in my job and this is not as hard as it might initially sound. For a low level system a simple excel would do the job.

As @Marc Wilson said its mostly a case of getting an unsuspecting intern to do the job :) And hey, still much better than running errants or making photocopies, if you ask me :)

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Gaz Taylor    665

For those of you whom are saying it's easy because you can just get in X specialist or adopt Y Framework - When there is not a culture there for it, it's not as easy as you think. I've been in IT for twenty years and seen a lot of these systems come and go (I've been a programmer, certified in ITIL and Prince2 and currently heavily involved with Sarbanes Oxley and trying avoid GDPR!!), so I know what you guys are saying. But if there is not a culture for Document Control, it's not going to happen easily if you try and implement it. You also need to consider do GW want to introduce for customers?

If it's something you are really passionate about, post a message on the Age of Sigmar Facebook page or drop the question in Twitch today (it's Warhammer Wednesday). They do look at every question and if there is a big demand for it, they will do something ;) 

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6 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

For those of you whom are saying it's easy because you can just get in X specialist or adopt Y Framework - When there is not a culture there for it, it's not as easy as you think. I've been in IT for twenty years and seen a lot of these systems come and go (I've been a programmer, certified in ITIL and Prince2 and currently heavily involved with Sarbanes Oxley and trying avoid GDPR!!), so I know what you guys are saying. But if there is not a culture for Document Control, it's not going to happen easily if you try and implement it. You also need to consider do GW want to introduce for customers?

If it's something you are really passionate about, post a message on the Age of Sigmar Facebook page or drop the question in Twitch today (it's Warhammer Wednesday). They do look at every question and if there is a big demand for it, they will do something ;) 

I think youre right there about the culture and the main issue is that they just don’t do project management as a whole very well, so the minor detail of document control isn’t even a concept. 

But as a principle it’s so widely adopted and GW is more than large enough it’s kind of embarrassing that they don’t adopt this stuff. 

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Carnelian    410

If they would keep the app with updated warscrolls that represent the actual rules after faqs that would be enough 

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stato    169
12 minutes ago, Carnelian said:

If they would keep the app with updated warscrolls that represent the actual rules after faqs that would be enough 

They wont do that though sadly, from GWs perspective the rules stand as fixed stand-alone documents and are not iterative, changing with each little update. Once created they do not change except for a major update at which point they release a new scroll, with the requirement to use it only required for tournament or strict matched play.  As far as i am aware i dont think any warscroll has been updated with FAQ changes. There have been replacement scrolls certainly but those were as a result of a new book or compendium, neither being specifically for FAQ updates.

They wont have different versions in the app as the app is a viewer of the fixed scrolls, so any variation must be replicated in a printed (or downloadable) copy somewhere.

Edited by stato

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RuneBrush    1,253

I think if we (as a community) wanted to create an index with references/links to the latest warscroll, that'd be brilliant.  However we're going to have to do it without getting anything special from GW, at least until we prove it's popular and become a "one-stop-shop" for the latest warscroll (perhaps TOs would use it as the authoritative list).  If you've the right software it's possible to edit warscrolls too.

I've thought warscrolls should have a version number in the corner for ages, but the people who write and design them aren't project managers - they're rules writers and artists and getting creative people to hook into a version control system would be akin to herding cats!

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Planar    57

@The Jabber Tzeentch , @RuneBrush Personally I really like the idea. It is in the same direction with warscroll builder. Something that started independently, gradually became the market standard and finally was adopted by GW.

However we need to keep in mind that warscrolls are GW copyrighted material. Tweaking them to bring them up to date might raise copyright issues…

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Grimnaud    196
7 minutes ago, Planar said:

@The Jabber Tzeentch , @RuneBrush Personally I really like the idea. It is in the same direction with warscroll builder. Something that started independently, gradually became the market standard and finally was adopted by GW.

However we need to keep in mind that warscrolls are GW copyrighted material. Tweaking them to bring them up to date might raise copyright issues…

But would you need to tweak them? Just collecting all the relevant changes into the same document as the war scroll would surely go a long way. Having the "official" war scroll, followed by the relevant excerpts from FAQ´s in one updated place rather than having to leaf through several different documents.

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Killax    1,255

I really don't see this as a big issue, with this I mean that the info is really there for starting players but due to the app and books I feel that all free information is free and shouldn't be continiously correct. For sure they could continiously update their sites and stuff but it would defeat the purpose of keeping all books interesting. Offcourse the Generals Handbooks will be but for quite  alot of armies the Warscrolls or app itself would be sufficieent the moment you pick up Generals Handbook 2017 for example. To me this at least applies to Seraphon, Fyreslayers, all lof Death, quite some Chaos and Order too.

What I believe is the easiest fix (when it will come) is to update it all again with a new edition but that isn't any time soon. Also keep in mind that most players are casual players and do not always care too much about the latest updated Warscroll. The "correct information" interest is very different in a casual game versus a tournament. Sometimes you win or lose because you got a rule wrong, it happens.

Edited by Killax

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Arkiham    1,227

it would certainly be handy to have the FAQ's on the warscroll.

For instance.

 

skarbrand 2.0.png

 

its not like on 90% of the warscrolls there isn't enough space 

Edited by Arkiham
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Killax    1,255
1 minute ago, Arkiham said:

it would certainly be handy to have the FAQ's on the warscroll for instance.

If you do it that way though people will be upset to continiously have to re-download new Warscrolls that have been updated.

There is no real easy way to go on about it. For sure you could have someone do it every time an Errata is brought out but I don't think there is enough interest on a global level for that. Those who do want to keep updated about everything download FAQ and make the markings themselves if they want to, or simply remember it. 

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Arkiham    1,227
Just now, Killax said:

If you do it that way though people will be upset to continiously have to re-download new Warscrolls that have been updated.

There is no real easy way to go on about it. For sure you could have someone do it every time an Errata is brought out but I don't think there is enough interest on a global level for that. Those who do want to keep updated about everything download FAQ and make the markings themselves if they want to, or simply remember it. 

clicking a button for a 2 second download is nothing. scrolling through a FAQ every time a question is asked is a much larger ballache. at least then everyone is playing off of the same rulesheet. 

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Killax    1,255
3 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

clicking a button for a 2 second download is nothing. scrolling through a FAQ every time a question is asked is a much larger ballache. at least then everyone is playing off of the same rulesheet. 

The thing is that not everybody is willing or going to download all Warscrolls. In general I've not found the lack of not updated Warscrolls to be a massive hinderance in any of my games. I actually don't think scrolling through a FAQ every time is a large ballache if you really want to know the awnser. As before in casual games most logical rulings go.

Age of Sigmar still isn't very continious and thus "tight" with their rules anyway. Every Warscroll has it's own way of dealing with certain stack options, durations, specific effects, you name it. So the moment a rules issue occurs the game needs to be put on a hold for a while anyway. Putting it on downloadable Warscrolls is only a solution if both players have updated theirs, I know for a fact a whole lot of players don't do that for various reasons. 

Edited by Killax

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Ollie Grimwood    693

Neither is a problem, this could possibly be the most first world of first world problems.  I guess New GW is doing rather well if this is considered a problem. 

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Arkiham    1,227
9 minutes ago, Killax said:

The thing is that not everybody is willing or going to download all Warscrolls. In general I've not found the lack of not updated Warscrolls to be a massive hinderance in any of my games. I actually don't think scrolling through a FAQ every time is a large ballache if you really want to know the awnser. As before in casual games most logical rulings go.

Age of Sigmar still isn't very continious and thus "tight" with their rules anyway. Every Warscroll has it's own way of dealing with certain stack options, durations, specific effects, you name it. So the moment a rules issue occurs the game needs to be put on a hold for a while anyway. 

But why? Why scroll through 5 pages of faq to find one passage of text when you can simply download the warscroll with the relevant faq on it. 

 

Far more elegant, efficient and allows a smoother flow of game play instead of disrupting everything to go and check a faq and putting each other off their game

Considering we've the tools to do it in 2017 and aos, why not do it? 

It's not excatly like they FAQ warscrolls all the time , 

Being forced to scroll through various faqs to try find the relevant passage is so outdated and screams WHFB.

Edited by Arkiham
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polarbear    271

The warscrolls should definitely change with the FAQ changes. Stuff like changes to the weapon ranges on Kharadron models needs to be on the scrolls. The FAQ should only remain for questions of technical aspects of the game, ambiguous wording, tricky situations etc. A lot of players wouldn't even know to go to a FAQ to find out their warscrolls are incorrect. 

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Planar    57
28 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Neither is a problem, this could possibly be the most first world of first world problems.  

As opposed to any other discussion about toy soldiers going on  on this site xD

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Any step towards being the same as, or having qualities similar to, Privateer Press, is not a positive thing in my eye.  I do not wan to have to use a single digital repository for all the information needed for the game.  One the reasons why I can't get into Warmahordes Mk3 is because of the over-reliance on their app and such, when one of the draws of that game to me was the use of cards to track damage!  If I want to spend a lot of time on a digital device, then give me a computer game.  I want my warscrolls in printed form, the pages of the Battletomes satisfying that tactile sense as much as the models themselves.  This is a tabletop hobby, one where batteries are not required to play, so let us keep that way.

And before anyone calls me a luddite, bear in mind that I double-majored in college with separate degrees in Digital Media Studies and Computer Science - Information Technology, and I have spent about 4 or 5 years of my life doing IT support in some form or another.  I like having a hobby that is completely separate from all of that, and gives me the opportunity to engage with others without the need for an Internet connection.

3 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I think if we (as a community) wanted to create an index with references/links to the latest warscroll, that'd be brilliant.  However we're going to have to do it without getting anything special from GW, at least until we prove it's popular and become a "one-stop-shop" for the latest warscroll (perhaps TOs would use it as the authoritative list).  If you've the right software it's possible to edit warscrolls too.

This sounds like the best solution, so long as the originals are also kept and documented.  Akin to someone wanting to play an older edition of a game, some people may want to play older versions of Warscrolls just to try them out and see how it was "back in the ol' days" of AoS.  TGA probably is the best AoS resource outside of GW itself, so having such a repository here only makes sense.

3 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I've thought warscrolls should have a version number in the corner for ages, but the people who write and design them aren't project managers - they're rules writers and artists and getting creative people to hook into a version control system would be akin to herding cats!

Lol, herding cats.

To be fair though, I'm a creative person myself, and I use a version control system for all of my projects.  But I'm also one of those writers who needs a good outline/idea/notes prepared before I can even begin to work on something.  I do agree that many other creative folks are more "pantsers" than myself, and those cats are rather difficult to herd ;)

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Arkiham    1,227
1 hour ago, BunkhouseBuster said:

Any step towards being the same as, or having qualities similar to, Privateer Press, is not a positive thing in my eye.  I do not wan to have to use a single digital repository for all the information needed for the game.  One the reasons why I can't get into Warmahordes Mk3 is because of the over-reliance on their app and such, when one of the draws of that game to me was the use of cards to track damage!  If I want to spend a lot of time on a digital device, then give me a computer game.  I want my warscrolls in printed form, the pages of the Battletomes satisfying that tactile sense as much as the models themselves.  This is a tabletop hobby, one where batteries are not required to play, so let us keep that way.

Easy to do if faqs aren't a thing. 

There's nothing stopping both, digital copies and paper form for those who want to print them out.

 I like a book to hold an read, but when I'm playing away from home I'd rather have the option to speed up the whole process. 

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