Question about word "immediately"

[CanHammer-darren]

So stick with me here.

My opponent plays his activation, by swapping out an objective card.  The card he picks up, says "score this card immediately if you made 3 charges with friendly fighters this turn".   He had, on the previous 3 activations, made charges.  But can he score this now?  the word immediately says to me that he has to have it in his hand at the time he finished his last charge....

[Goblin-King]

Immediately mostly means "as opposed to waiting until an end phase".

First and foremost you are misquoting the card. It actually says "in this phase" not "this turn". Important difference!

I would allow your friend to score the point. If you at any point in this phase hold this card while 3 of your fighters has previously made charges in this same phase, you immediately score the point. The condition to score this card is not an instant, but a lingering status. It's not "the instant your 3rd fighter in this phase charges". It's just "if 3 fighters made a charge".

[CanHammer-darren]

i dont have the card in front of me, but to me, immediately means immediately, not in the next activation, but then yes, the status of having made 3 charges in the turn is a standing constant. we did let him score it, i was just bringing it up for discussion

[Killax]

Assuming it was Blood for the Blood God! or Call of the Waaagh! was found here he would be able to score it during that phase the moment 3 or more fighters have charged during that phase. 

Immediately does not mean "as opposed to waiting until an end phase". Sometimes immediatly must be scored the moment something occurs and cannot be scored afterwards. Victorious Duel is such an example. It can only be scored the moment your leader has taken another leader out of action and you have this card in hand.


 

[Goblin-King]

You are right. With Victorious Duel he would have to already have the card on his hand when the instant occurred.
This card and BftBG are very different in their timing.

So defining "immediately"? At any point where you both hold the card AND the condition on said card is in place?

[CanHammer-darren]

that seems to be what GW defines immediately as....immediately.  so I would say you have to have card in hand when the condition to score it just occurs

[Killax]

6 minutes ago, Goblin-King said:

So defining "immediately"? At any point where you both hold the card AND the condition on said card is in place?

You could say that, I see it as an indication of the Objective card being scored in an Action phase as opposed to the End phase.

E.g. Call of the Waaagh! and Blood for the Bloodgod! can't be scored in any End phase because they refer to this phase, which always will be the Action phase. As charges are impossible to do in the End phase. End phase Objectives also often refer to the preceding Action phase for other reasons.

[Wallack]

Also I think you cannot score objectives just drawn. That might be another issue.

[Goblin-King]

1 minute ago, Wallack said:

Also I think you cannot score objectives just drawn. That might be another issue.

Certainly not if you draw them in the end phase.
But unless specifically stated somewhere, I can't see why you couldn't score Blood for the Blood God you just drew.

[Killax]

4 minutes ago, Wallack said:

Also I think you cannot score objectives just drawn. That might be another issue.

I believe the intend there is that the same trigger can't apply to just drawn Objectives drawn from a score immediatly Objective source.

E.g. say you fufill Lightning Strikes and draw Awe-Inspiring you can't trigger Awe-Inspiring on the same kill as Lightning Strikes.

Though I have to admit, the Rulesbook isn't very clear on it as it lacks an example I believe. 

[CanHammer-darren]

well, there is that reply from the FB page...i know thats not an "official ruling" but i think they intended that to score something "immediately" means you have to have it in your hand when the condition is satisfied

[Killax]

21 minutes ago, CanHammer-darren said:

well, there is that reply from the FB page...i know thats not an "official ruling" but i think they intended that to score something "immediately" means you have to have it in your hand when the condition is satisfied

I think so too, will copy the part from the page this evening. So far only Victorious Duel is an exception but still swell because it does score 2 instantly and for some Warbands the trigger isnt hard.

[ReynakZhen]

there is a shadowed box in the rule book on page 25 that states an objective that is completed during the action phase, results in that player drawing another objective card immediately, But, you cannot score the newly drawn objective until after a subsequent action or activation. Even if the conditions on the card have been met.

[CanHammer-darren]

he didnt draw it as a result of scoring an objective, he drew it from activation.  not sure if that makes difference, but i think intent is probably the same

[Goblin-King]

One of my general points of critique on Shadespire (which is excellently illustrated in this thread) is that the whole aspect of "timing" is just not adequately explained in the rules. 

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, CanHammer-darren said:

he didnt draw it as a result of scoring an objective, he drew it from activation.  not sure if that makes difference, but i think intent is probably the same

I disagree. The rule is specific. 

Draw from scoring = no ability to score the draw. 

Draw as activation... No such limit in place.

Keep in mind,  this game is designed to work in a tight, competitive setting. It's not the loosie-goosie world of AoS, WFB, or 40K. It isn't the old chestnut of "in a game with hundreds of units, thousands of rules interactions, imprecise measurements, etc. you are bound to have to do our jobs for us and create the rules." 

Nope. This is the precise world of clear, cutthroat games.

If they "meant" a thing, they should have worded it as such. 

That's why the answer to the post is that immediately means immediately. Now. Not later. You "score immediately if" condition x.

The condition will vary, and may decide if you are able to "score immediately" or not, but when you score (if the condition allows) is not altered.

In other words, "immediately" is when you score, not how.

Words mean things, especially in games like this.

[Killax]

In either case though, page 25 is indeed clear. The Objectives drawn due to a Immediate score cannot be scored directly 'aswell'. The first chance for this is until after a subsequent action or activation.

E.g. if your opponent drew a Blood for the Bloodgod! As a result of an Immediate scored Objective he cannot "immediately" score that one. The first chance for him is in the subsequent action or activation. Better put, there is a maximum ammount of Immediate Objectives you can score aswell.
Check page 25 of the rulebook; Objective Cards In the Action Phase

Otherwise all Objective Cards are further score in the End Phase. This is indeed done in a different way. It also means that if you'd draw Blood for the Bloodgod! in your fourth activation you would indeed not be able to score it. There is then no subsequent action or activation window left. I know most players might allow it but the rules specifically state how "freshly draw" Objectives cannot be scored in an Action phase during the same activation or action.

Immediate Objectives have a true pros and cons:
Pro: You can score them in your Action phase, making it easier to play Upgrades from the freshly obtained Glory
Pro: You draw another Objective card
Con: The window in which these Objectives can be played is much more limited as regular ones. Missing it allows you to still ask your opponent for a score premission but if it's an activation ago I would fully accept that the oppossing player would decline that score. At that moment the window is shut again.
Con: You really have to continiously check your hand and situation for them. In that regard the regular End phase scores are much more relaxed.

[CanHammer-darren]

Anyway until it’s FAQ people can argue words all they want. That is definitely no different from 40k haha

[Sleboda]

Nah. Even after the FAQ, the people who think a rule "is meant to be" one way will argue against the actual honest to goodness written words that really exist.

RAI can eat a sausage.

[Killax]

In any case, all awnsers can be found in this part:



As before, note that you cannot score any objective cards drawn this way (after scoring an Objective in the Action phase) until after a subsequent (=next, following etc.) action or activation.  For what applies to which Objective card completely relies on the Objective card. 

[CanHammer-darren]

Yea but in my case he didn’t draw an objective card from scoring one. He used an activation to discard an objective and picked a new one up, which he then scored

[Killax]

53 minutes ago, CanHammer-darren said:

Yea but in my case he didn’t draw an objective card from scoring one. He used an activation to discard an objective and picked a new one up, which he then scored

Which in this case is totally fine and not breaking any rules.

The note specifically states, if Objectives are drawn from an score immediately Objective you cannot score it in that same activation/action.  So whatever the card drawn from scoring Blood for the Bloodgod! was he cannot score that Objective up until the next following activation/action.

[CodFather]

Although I realize there hasn't been an official clarification, but I wanted to see if my understanding of BftBG is in line with what people are thinking.  Let's say my first 3 activations are charges, and on my third charge I complete a "score immediately" objective, therefore drawing another card.  I draw BftBG.  Rules state even though the conditions for this card are met, I can't play it this activation.  No problem, I still have one activation left.  Comes to my next activation, I play BftBG, conditions for the card are met ("Score this immediately if three or more of your fighters made a charge action in this phase").

[Killax]

@CodFatherYeah at that point you could still score it that Round. If you had no Activations left however the next chance is the next Round which resets all limitations set per Action phase.