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smucreo

Starting AoS Death

30 posts in this topic

smucreo    0

Hello, I'm looking to start playing in Age of Sigmar and I was interested in Death armies. I've been looking into it for a bit and it doesn't look like there's much in term of allegiances other than flesh eater courts, which I really don't like that much.

Can someone give me some tips on how to start collecting? I liked the look of the malignant SC box (i love spooky ghosts) and the skeleton horde one didn't look so bad either, but as I said the flesh eater SC box didn't really appeal to me. Thanks in advance for your time!

EDIT: My idea would be to get something to play at 1000 points to start enjoying the army with some friends (casual play) and to gradually build up to 2000 points (at that point I'd try to be a bit more competitive).

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xspire    10
30 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Hello, I'm looking to start playing in Age of Sigmar and I was interested in Death armies. I've been looking into it for a bit and it doesn't look like there's much in term of allegiances other than flesh eater courts, which I really don't like that much.

Can someone give me some tips on how to start collecting? I liked the look of the malignant SC box (i love spooky ghosts) and the skeleton horde one didn't look so bad either, but as I said the flesh eater SC box didn't really appeal to me. Thanks in advance for your time!

EDIT: My idea would be to get something to play at 1000 points to start enjoying the army with some friends (casual play) and to gradually build up to 2000 points (at that point I'd try to be a bit more competitive).

Nagash

10 Skeletons

5 Dire Wolves

5 Dire Wolves

1000 points

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Squirrelmaster    292

I take it you're mainly looking at matched play (points, allegiances, "competitive", etc.)? In that case you'll need to pick an allegiance from the General's Handbook 2017 to build your army around — your options are:

  • A full "Death" allegiance — basically anything goes but you don't get the same bonuses as if you specialise
  • "Flesh-Eater Courts" (which it sounds like you're not interested in)
  • "Nighthaunt", which is basically nothing but ghosts in various shapes and sizes
  • "Soulblight", an elite vampire-centric army.
  • "Deathlord", a super-elite army based around Morghasts, Mortarchs, and Nagash (and not much else)
  • "Deathrattle" - skeletons & wights (including black knights and grave guard)

If we get another battletome/allegiance any time soon, my money would be on Deathrattle (mostly skeletons), but I personally wouldn't hold out for that just now.

If you want to include the contents of SC malignants, your main option is full-on mixed Death. You could go Nighthaunt but the mortis engine can't then be taken at all and the coven throne only in 2000pt games (some people use the kit to make a more impressive-looking black coach though). Nighthaunt is pretty effective right now but your options are a bit limited.

For mixed Death, you'll need at least two "battleline" units — skeletons, zombies, or dire wolves. Wolves are fast and cheap but don't come back when they're killed. Zombies are cheap and slow, come back when they're killed if the unit is still there, but can't fight out of a wet paper bag. Skeletons are little pricier, come back when killed, and can actually kill stuff if you take them in big (30-40) horde units with spears. Personally I favour skeletons.

You'll also need a general — that could be the coven throne, or basically any "character". Most Death players I've known end up taking a Mortarch in larger games, but in smaller games you'd probably want a regular Vampire Lord or a Wight King. The Mortis Engine is a solid choice and a lot cheaper (points-wise) than the Coven Throne.

Maybe something like:

Vampire Lord
10 Skeletons
10 Skeletons
Mortis Engine
3 Spirit Hosts
5 Hexwraiths
Necromancer
5 Black Knights

990pts

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smucreo    0

Yeah I meant matched play. Thanks for the tips! So I could start with a start collecting Malignants for example and expand from there right? From what I see Start collecting Deathrattle+Malignants would cover your list pretty well

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Squirrelmaster    292

Yeah, it's pretty easy to field everything from the SC: Malignants box as part of a 1000pt mixed-faction Death army.

The Mortis Engine is made from the same kit as the Coven Throne, you get enough bits for one or the other in the  SC: Malignants box, so you'll need to decide which you prefer.

Likewise, Hexwraiths can be assembled as Black Knights instead if you prefer.

SC: Skeleton Horde will be worth if you plan of fielding one of the Mortarchs, but they're a bit points-heavy for smaller (1000pt) games, maybe hold off until you're expanding up to 2000pts for that one.

The "Deathrattle Barrow Lords" box comes with 5 more Black Knights or Hexwraiths, a Wight King, and 10 Graveguard — a more elite skeletal-looking unit. They won't count as "battleline", so you'll still need two units of regular Skeleton Warriors, Dire Wolves, or Zombies — I don't think there's a multi-unit boxed set for any of those, so you'll need to buy them separately.

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smucreo    0
5 hours ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Yeah, it's pretty easy to field everything from the SC: Malignants box as part of a 1000pt mixed-faction Death army.

The Mortis Engine is made from the same kit as the Coven Throne, you get enough bits for one or the other in the  SC: Malignants box, so you'll need to decide which you prefer.

Likewise, Hexwraiths can be assembled as Black Knights instead if you prefer.

SC: Skeleton Horde will be worth if you plan of fielding one of the Mortarchs, but they're a bit points-heavy for smaller (1000pt) games, maybe hold off until you're expanding up to 2000pts for that one.

The "Deathrattle Barrow Lords" box comes with 5 more Black Knights or Hexwraiths, a Wight King, and 10 Graveguard — a more elite skeletal-looking unit. They won't count as "battleline", so you'll still need two units of regular Skeleton Warriors, Dire Wolves, or Zombies — I don't think there's a multi-unit boxed set for any of those, so you'll need to buy them separately.

Yeah, I tried theorycrafting a list using SC Skeleton Horde (turning the Black Knights into Hexwraiths)+ Tormented Spirits + 10 extra skellies, and was very happy with it until I realized I was missing a battleline unit and had no more points available if I wanted to play at 1000 points... oops haha Are Black Knights any good? I'm sure I can modify this list to get 10 extra skeletons and have 15 skellies in two units with a little tweak.

I'll definitely consider the box you suggested too though, looks like a great bang for the buck.

Edited by smucreo

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smucreo    0

Sorry for the double post but I can't figure out how to edit my post after a certain time, I guess you can't.

The list I was talking about would look something like this:

Arkhan (320)

15 Skeletons (120)

15 Skeletons (120)

10 Hexwraiths (320)

3 Spirit Hosts (120)

For 1000 points using the start collecting skeleton horde and the tormented spirits boxes plus a couple of boxes of skellies.

I'm still not sure, is the Mortis Engine good? I like its design, that's for sure. For now I'm still thinking on the 1000 point list for Malignant SC.

Edited by smucreo

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xspire    10
33 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Sorry for the double post but I can't figure out how to edit my post after a certain time, I guess you can't.

The list I was talking about would look something like this:

Arkhan (320)

15 Skeletons (120)

15 Skeletons (120)

10 Hexwraiths (320)

3 Spirit Hosts (120)

For 1000 points using the start collecting skeleton horde and the tormented spirits boxes plus a couple of boxes of skellies.

I'm still not sure, is the Mortis Engine good? I like its design, that's for sure. For now I'm still thinking on the 1000 point list for Malignant SC.

Unfortunately you can't take 15 skeletons for 120 points fella - 15 skeletons would be 160 points, the same as 20.

20 skeletons is the weakest configuration for a unit of skeletons, without overloading you with all the maths, as a quick summary the best options for skeletons is either 10 or 40, with 30 also being viable if you don't have the points/models for 40, and then 20 is the worst option.

What you can do is have 3 x 10 for the same points though.

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smucreo    0
11 minutes ago, xspire said:

Unfortunately you can't take 15 skeletons for 120 points fella - 15 skeletons would be 160 points, the same as 20.

20 skeletons is the weakest configuration for a unit of skeletons, without overloading you with all the maths, as a quick summary the best options for skeletons is either 10 or 40, with 30 also being viable if you don't have the points/models for 40, and then 20 is the worst option.

What you can do is have 3 x 10 for the same points though.

Oh ok, I hadn't really given it too much thought honestly. Thanks for the clarification! Is it because just losing a single guy mean you lose half of your attacks while on units of 30 you "just" lose a third of your attacks and on 40 the loss is negligible until you get to 30?

Anyways, 3x10 it is then! Didn't know the points worked like that, I thought they told you how much the min and max costed.

Edited by smucreo

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Squirrelmaster    292

Yeah, the official rules are that units must be taken in multiples of their minimum size, or else you take them "under-strength" and pay for the next multiple up. There are some players out there — I'm afraid I don't know how many — who will let you pay on a per-model basis, but that's not the default.

Skeletons pretty much need to be in a unit of 30+ to have decent hitting power. Units of 10 work because you aren't really taking them for hitting power, they are a small/cheap/expendable unit.  Blocks of 30 really need to be at full strength when they attack, which generally means they need to activate before whatever they're fighting, even one or two casualties drastically reduces their power, but if you've only lost one or two models you can get them back in your next hero phase. With 40 you have a buffer before you start losing attacks. You also get a discount for running 40, which makes them even better.

Having said that, I'd personally consider 1 unit of 10 and 1 of 20 to be more useful than 3 of 10, if you don't have the points to fit more in.

Also, spears are pretty much a must-have for big blocks, the sheer number of extra attacks you get almost always outweighs the different to-hit score. For blocks of 10, it doesn't really matter much but swords are probably better because you'll get most of them in fighting range anyway.

I'd say the Mortis Engine is good, especially if you have wizards and multi-wound models, but even if you don't.

I would say Black Knights are "okay", but to be honest I don't think they're great. That said, I know some Death players swear by them, so… it's kind of a judgement call, I guess. They do best on the charge, and since they can recover lost models you're probably best off retreating rather than getting stuck in combat. They work quite well with the standard Vampire / Wight command abilities, which grant extra attacks. A small unit should probably aim to be annoying enough that your opponent won't want to ignore them, cheap enough that they don't really want to waste time dealing with them either.

I'd be a little sceptical about running Arkhan as a general in 1000pts — but again, that may be a judgement call. He's a decent monster/wizard, but I know some players run him alongside another, smaller, character, and name them the "general" instead. It's a question of command abilities, traits, and artefacts. But that all depends on what you can squeeze in to 1000pts.

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smucreo    0
5 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Yeah, the official rules are that units must be taken in multiples of their minimum size, or else you take them "under-strength" and pay for the next multiple up. There are some players out there — I'm afraid I don't know how many — who will let you pay on a per-model basis, but that's not the default.

Skeletons pretty much need to be in a unit of 30+ to have decent hitting power. Units of 10 work because you aren't really taking them for hitting power, they are a small/cheap/expendable unit.  Blocks of 30 really need to be at full strength when they attack, which generally means they need to activate before whatever they're fighting, even one or two casualties drastically reduces their power, but if you've only lost one or two models you can get them back in your next hero phase. With 40 you have a buffer before you start losing attacks. You also get a discount for running 40, which makes them even better.

Having said that, I'd personally consider 1 unit of 10 and 1 of 20 to be more useful than 3 of 10, if you don't have the points to fit more in.

Also, spears are pretty much a must-have for big blocks, the sheer number of extra attacks you get almost always outweighs the different to-hit score. For blocks of 10, it doesn't really matter much but swords are probably better because you'll get most of them in fighting range anyway.

I'd say the Mortis Engine is good, especially if you have wizards and multi-wound models, but even if you don't.

I would say Black Knights are "okay", but to be honest I don't think they're great. That said, I know some Death players swear by them, so… it's kind of a judgement call, I guess. They do best on the charge, and since they can recover lost models you're probably best off retreating rather than getting stuck in combat. They work quite well with the standard Vampire / Wight command abilities, which grant extra attacks. A small unit should probably aim to be annoying enough that your opponent won't want to ignore them, cheap enough that they don't really want to waste time dealing with them either.

I'd be a little sceptical about running Arkhan as a general in 1000pts — but again, that may be a judgement call. He's a decent monster/wizard, but I know some players run him alongside another, smaller, character, and name them the "general" instead. It's a question of command abilities, traits, and artefacts. But that all depends on what you can squeeze in to 1000pts.

Thanks for all the great tips, I really had no clue about how points worked haha I was going to go spears for the reach, so I'm glad I was right on that at least.

The problem with Arkhan is that by buying those two boxes I don't have much of an option for a general, I guess I could run the Cairn Wraith as one, but is a model with only four wounds going to be that effective as a leader? Otherwise I may just buy a vampire lord, but it pains me to do so because I know I'm just not going to use him that much once I expand into larger point games... 

Sorry if I'm being annoying by having so many questions, but I'm glad I did ask since I've learned that I had some things completely backwards.

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You could also see if your local store has one of the nighthaunt theme boxes from the last chance to buy range. It has a cairn wraith hexwraiths and spirithosts so adding one of those to a start collecting mallignants could work for a nighthaunt allegience force

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Zombies can actually wreck some faces if you can get them into said-faces (slow as molasses). 

You would have to go general Death, but that will at least get your Zombies Deathless Minions . For 1k points, you can get two Necromancers, two Corpse Carts, and two units of 50 Zombies. 

What this boils down to is two units that are made up of a Wizard who has Look Out Sir!, and Danes Macabre (adds an extra pile in and attack to each Zombie), a Cart that gives your Wizard +1 to casting (making Danse a 5 to cast) and gives +1 to Hit for your Zombies, and 50 brain eaters that , when all is said and done, are getting 2 attacks at 2+ Hit and 3+ Wound that regens 1d6 models per Hero phase, with a 6++ Save. Granted, not all will be in base contact, they fall to a gentle breeze, and there’s no Rend, but think of the number of Saves that would have to be rolled. It’s slow as all get out, but good god at the wounds you would put out. 

Edit: Flaw detected. Can’t cast Danse twice in a round. 

Edited by HandsomeBlaggard

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xspire    10
47 minutes ago, HandsomeBlaggard said:

Zombies can actually wreck some faces if you can get them into said-faces (slow as molasses). 

You would have to go general Death, but that will at least get your Zombies Deathless Minions . For 1k points, you can get two Necromancers, two Corpse Carts, and two units of 50 Zombies. 

What this boils down to is two units that are made up of a Wizard who has Look Out Sir!, and Danes Macabre (adds an extra pile in and attack to each Zombie), a Cart that gives your Wizard +1 to casting (making Danse a 5 to cast) and gives +1 to Hit for your Zombies, and 50 brain eaters that , when all is said and done, are getting 2 attacks at 2+ Hit and 3+ Wound that regens 1d6 models per Hero phase, with a 6++ Save. Granted, not all will be in base contact, they fall to a gentle breeze, and there’s no Rend, but think of the number of Saves that would have to be rolled. It’s slow as all get out, but good god at the wounds you would put out. 

Edit: Flaw detected. Can’t cast Danse twice in a round. 

This is one of those lists that looks better on paper, in reality it's not good in any way. You have no hard hitting reliable damage, no mobility, only 2 units that can reliably score objectives, the more you spread out, the weaker you are. If you stay bulked up to get as much benefit as possible from the unit synergy, you're easy to outplay on the board. It's pretty easy to avoid zombies and wittle them down, and if you're an army with no ranged all you have to do is slam your whole 1000 point army into one block of zombies at a time and they won't survive long enough to do comparable damage back. In an objective game all you have to do is kill one unit of zombies and you can then sit on the other objectives whilst you're only going to be able to camp one with your huge blob, maybe two if you're lucky and they're close together.

This is where skeletons are just straight up better, 40 skeletons is cheaper than 50 zombies and they're better in almost every way apart from points cost. They also don't need as much support. Moving 100 zombies around will also get tedious very fast, and considering there is no cheap / budget way to get BNIB zombies it's just a waste of money.

Yes, occasionally you will play against someone who will try and fight both units at once, and the zombies will regen, and they'll send in one unit at a time and get stuck/beaten in combat and the zombies will seem good - but they're not.

You would have to really love zombies and trolling to play zombie hoard in GH2k17, it's more of a once every few months gimmick game than something you could enjoy often, after someone has played it once they're not going to want to keep playing it every week. And that's completely fine, nothing wrong with that - it's the time & money you're investing into that gimmick that's the issue. If someone was going to turn around and give you 100 free constructed & painted zombies it's a lot easier to put a list like this together and go troll some people at your LGS. But when you have to spend £100 and countless hours building and painting them all, you probably want to invest in something more rewarding.

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AverageBoss    86
6 hours ago, smucreo said:

The problem with Arkhan is that by buying those two boxes I don't have much of an option for a general...

You will get all the parts for Manfred and Neferata in the SC box as well, so those are also options. Neferata makes a pretty good general from what I hear, but she is on the pricey side (400 points). Never really hear much about Manfred, good or bad.

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real_amnz    0
3 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

You will get all the parts for Manfred and Neferata in the SC box as well, so those are also options. Neferata makes a pretty good general from what I hear, but she is on the pricey side (400 points). Never really hear much about Manfred, good or bad.

yeah, but I think he was referring to the fact that buying the Start Collecting Skeleton Horde + Tormented spirits box gives him only him (the cheapest one of the three) and Cairn Wraith as an option, which means that unless  he uses Cairn Wraith as a general or buys a vampire lord or something he doesn't have much room to fit in more skeletons.

Edited by real_amnz

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GingerGiant    17

I'm a fan of Soulblight, which has some nice options of you're incorporating summoning as part of your strategy.

Specifically:

  • Zombies are the best tarpit summon. They're the only unit in the game that can combine two smaller units into a bigger one on the battlefield, plus they benefit from a recursion banner, and they're very easy to summon. Also, they get a huge benefit from the Vampire Lord's Command Ability, which doubles their attacks (they only have one attack to start with :P).
  • Skeletons are better written into your army list. They're the same speed as zombies and deal slightly more damage (with Ancient Blades), and they're slightly more durable. They're damage output is significantly better than zombies if you bring a horde. In fact, it's significantly better than most units. Look for buffs that improve the quality of their attacks, rather than quantity, to get the most out of them. If you want to drop something durable with recursion onto an objective, these should be your first consideration.
  • Dire Wolves are a go-to fast summon. They're 1.5x more durable than the skeletons or zombies, for their points, and 3x faster. No recursion, though.
  • Fel Bats compete with the Dire Wolves for summoning, as they're even faster and can fly. Even with their special ability, the Dire Wolves have very similar performance in sustained combat. I don't recommend summoning them unless you specifically need a flyer, though they may be a solid include in your list if combined with the Swift Death Bloodline for 16" of flying movement. Otherwise, Dire Wolves do their job better.
  • Bat Swarms are great for discouraging shooting. They're cheap to summon, and can potentially save you from a (future) turn of shooting. Keep a couple in your collection to summon, or include them in your list if you're really worried about shooting (and you can snag the first turn to move them into position).
  • Morghast Harbingers are heavy duty Prosecutors, minus the shooting attacks. They have > 50% odds of completing a 9" charge.
  • Tomb Banshees are the closest option you have to a shooting summon. Her 10" Wail range will let you shoot in the turn you summon her. Not a bad summon, especially if you combine it with other effects that reduce bravery (Soulbight's Necromantic Bloodline, for example).

Now, how do you summon all these wonderful things? I'm inclined to roll with a pair of Necromantic Vampire Lords. On foot, specifically, to keep them cheap. They also have a pretty sweet spell, in addition to the summoning and usual spells, so there are always interesting things to do with them. Also, their Command Ability synergizes quite well with both Blood Knights and Zombies, if you suddenly have the urge to summon 60 of them. In larger games, consider allying in a Mortis Engine or Corpse Cart and Necromancer. Two Vampire Lords, a Blood Knight unit, and a Vargheist unit are my 1000 point list, with the remainder going to Summoning. The Ruby Vial makes that Tomb Banshee summon much more fun.

EDIT: Spirit Hosts are a very nice summon, too! Great for dealing with lots of Mortal Wounds, if you need that specifically, in addition to their Ethereal Durability. Surprisingly, not a good choice for facing Saurus Guard. The Saurus Guard, in a 5-model unit, will straight-up murder your Spirit Hosts. Again. For the last time.

Edited by GingerGiant

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smucreo    0

You have to save points for summoning right? What benefits does it give you? Does it basically allow you to deepstrike with any unit capable of being summoned (since I assume you have a range of a few inches forward where you can summon units)? If so, considering I'll probably be running a GA Death allegiance list, wouldn't it be just better to just use the wraith fleet allegiance, which gives me a similar benefit?

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Hannibal    3

You will get both. All the benefits of grand alliance death including artifacts and traits as well as the special ability offered by the fleet. 

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Dracothjay    112

Seeming that we are on this topic, I have a 1v1v1 1000 Pts game on Tuesday. I'm up against darkling covens and high aelfs. I've gone for a mixed death list and I want your opinion;

mannfred von Carstein - general

cairn wraith - artefact is the sword which allows an instant summon once  per game (forget the name)

20 skeletons

10 skeletons

3 spirit host

3 vargheist

my plan is keeping the spirit host and vargheist in my summoning pool, keeping them safe until I need them. Mannfred and my vargheist will be my hammer and me skeletons will screen, 20 block trying to hold a key objective.

once the spirit host are summoned, I'll keep my cairn wraith nice and close for the deathless minions save. 

 

I could drop the wraith and 10 skeletons to field a VL as my 2'd hero, but I actually like my 20 block of skeletons.

thoughts?

Edited by Dracothjay

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Bradifer    144

You should magnetize the different rider's butts on the dread abyssal.

If you're newer and that seems like a hard task, just don't build any of the riders yet and just play with the dread abyssal w/out a rider. Just tell your opponent he's not finished but you're running Arkhan.

When you're up for it, you cans imply place a small magnet into the seat/saddle on the dread abyssal and then put a magnet in the opposite polarity to the bottom of each of the rider's butts. Now you can switch between each of the very different mortarchs. 

There is a point when you will move past 1K games and you will really appreciate being able to spend ~100 more points and turn Arkhan into Manfredd or Neferata who are much stronger in combat.

We all play our death armies differently, but I like playing with more elite units rather than hordes.

I can tell you the strongest units IMO:

  • Morghast Archai
  • Zombie Dragon/Terrorgheist with either Ghoul King or Vampire Lord. (Which one depends on if you're running FEC stuff for synergy or not).
  • 40 skeletons or40  zombies buffed by a necromancer
  • Tarpitting enemies with spirit hosts
  • Tarpitting enemies with dire wolves
  • 6 Crypt Horrors or 6 Crypt Flayers backed by a Varghulf or their Infernal Haunter/Flayer hero. That makes the group deadly and regenerating.
  • Mourngul
  • One of the three Mortarchs. I found Neferata's debuff to be the strongest, while Mannfred has more dangerous attacks and magic. Arkhan has the curse and is decent vs small things in combat.
  • Timely Mortis Engine Bombs

I've never played any TK, but these units ^ above are the most reliable ways for me to beat opponents. Death is generally slower except for the pieces that are actually really fast. You don't want to split your army too much with the slow stuff taking 2 more turns to get there. I find the battleline units are best at holding objectives because they're tarpitty and slow. Unless you have 40 then it will kill most things, but then you have to think about movement etc.

I like your approach of 'figure out which starter boxes to get' but I think you should make a 1.5K list, a 2K list, then narrow down and make the 1K knowing that your purchases can all line up and you wont have 10 unbuilt hexwraiths like some of us haha.

EDIT: For the record I find most non-GA Death armies to be very limiting in design scope. They did not plan their warscrolls around allegiances kicking out half the other death units, so you will end up with a somewhat spammy list that will probably have some big holes in it. I say embrace GA-Death and play with a huge range of units. That or go deep in FEC but its a pretty limiting playstyle (i.e. always melee, always going for attrition). Deathrattle may have a book eventually so alternatively you could  build up a 1k list and focus on getting a 40-skeleton bloc, supplementing with other skeleton things until the book comes out - but who knows when that will be.

Edited by Bradifer

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AverageBoss    86

I have a bit of a choice to make myself. I am going to be getting a 2nd Mortarch model (have Arkhan, thinking #2 will be Neferata).

I can get the lone kit for $60 (my LGS is offering me a discount due to the Skeleton Horde box existing).

I can get the Skeleton Horde box and have the Black Knights go to waste (already have 10 each of BKs and HWs).

Or I can get the upcoming holiday bundle and have the Grave Guard go to waste (already have 30).

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