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Gotrek

Are slaughterpriests fair?

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My buddy and i were playing a game today,  he's been struggling with his stormcast against my khorne army and he brought up a good point. While khorne doesnt really have missile troops, with the priests our ranged game is still pretty good. I can take 3 of them in a gorepilgrims battalion and then each one has a 75% chance to deal d6 mortal wounds to a unit within 16". Which, granted is needed against stormcast with their 1+ rerollable,  healing on a 4+ saves. But it does seem crazy that for 300 points i can spike down almost any key combo piece i want.

Basically my question is, within the context of the gorepilgrims, are slaughterpriests too good for 100 points? Im aware they have an 8% chance to deal d3 mortal wounds to themselves (since we can reroll failed prayers) and they are susceptible to ranged themselves with their 5+ save, but their offensive and utilitarian capabilities are really powerful.

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External comparison: Stormfiends are 300pts, 18 wounds also (but at 4+), don't have to roll for Warpfire Projectors (but shorter range), better in combat, better movement, and can be Battleline. Priests also have a Blessing each.

So I would say that, at their very best (ie: in a 180pt Battalion with other army list taxes), Priests are around par with one of the best units out there.

I therefore don't have any qualms or concerns whatsoever about them being cheese/filth.

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Hate it when people whine about stormfiends. It's the only unit keeping Skaven competitive, so don't compare them out of context.

Priests are alright. Khorne armies aren't imbalanced in any case. In fact I think they are pretty much the best balanced of the new armys. Tough, many options, beatable.

Go open a thread out Tzeentch / FEC when it comes to fairness.

Cheers.

Edited by Spiny Norman
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Slaughterpriests are fine and Gorepilgirms is 180 pts which is the same as a unit of Wrathmongers or Skullreapers. They also contain a balance in that prayer failures can cause Mortal to themselves and not many of any comparable units suffer that. Finally they are save 5+ so very susceptible to getting sniped themselves.  

 

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In isolation they look good but you've got to look at the army as a whole and consider how that would work against different forces. 

If you're getting all 3 priests into range of a stormcast army then either the build isn't right or their target priority isn't right.

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As the above. In addition obiously Mortal wounds are a bigger issue to armies that can easily obtain 3+ armour with 1's to re-roll.

What Ive found true is that Khorne is easier to play as Stormcast and usually early games can lead to quick Khorne wins when one wants to fight them 'fair and square'.

Frankly Slaughterpriests are cool but if your opponent refuses to thake any ranged models to deal with it he's going to have a hard time. Khorne mirror has quite a hard time with priests. ;)

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My first reaction was to say "WOW that's strong" because I immediately had to think about how I would react when playing Saurus Guard in an Eternal Starhost and those would just get demolished by those priests of yours in one round.

...but then I thought: Well they _are_ strong but Chameleon Skinks or Terradons would pretty much demolish them, and so would some other units. If you can bubble-wrap them well they might live a bit longer against the Chameleons, but a Stegadon is tall enough to still have line of sight and a Terradon flies so won't have problems there either.

Armies having artillery or tall/flying units with ranged attacks will give them priority I guess. Kurnoth Hunters or Skyfires as well as some Kharadron units may be able to get line of sight early and shoot them.

As for Stormcast: Those priests are not going to live long if your opponent brings a Knight Venator or - even worse - the Celestant Prime.
 

So no, I wouldn't call them OP/cheese/filth/whatever. They have strong attacks against many targets but they have weaknesses as well. Unlike _some other_ units in the game...

 

EDIT: That being said: I still don't like strong prayers (regardless of the army that has them) because I dislike abilities that don't give your opponent a chance to defend himself. At least Khorne usually has a certain risk that they fail.

Edited by Aginor

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I don't think Slaughterpriests are inherently overpowered, they're right where they should be in terms of utility and force multiplication.

However I do think that Gore Pilgrims offers way too many general buffs, to the point that you have to think of a reason not to take it in a Khorne army.

Now some people may argue that Khorne armies needs these buffs to stay competitive. I don't 100% disagree with this line of thought but it does smack of bad faction design if they need a battalion to "fix" them.

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1 hour ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

I don't 100% disagree with this line of thought but it does smack of bad faction design if they need a battalion to "fix" them.

As a Khorne player I can confortably say that Gore Pilgrims isn't needed for any Khorne army, but what I can say is that several of the former interesting Battalions have been cost increased so much that it indeed shows the thought process used for these with GH2017 doesn't add up.

To give a specific example, The Goretide requires a minimum of one additional Battalion, despite this both Slaughterborn and The Goretide have been increased with 100 points. Khorne has many more Battalions who require another Battalion and those Battalions have been increased with an additional 100 points too. Due to General's Handbook 2017 Khorne is more or less restricted to four tournament relevant Battalions; Murderhost, Gore Pilgrims, Bloodmarked Warband and Brass Stampede, for the latter you more or less have to commit to seven Skullcrusher units.

What could be seen as 'bad unit design' is the initial Slaughterpriest costing 100 points, doing so since General's Handbook 2016. Before the Blades of Khorne book they where never part of any tournament Khorne army because just having Blood Boil or Bloodbind is not worth the effort. It became interesting once the secondary Blood Blessing was added, likely in an attempt of the designers to give Khorne Slaughterpriests a purpose :) .

In the end Khorne is still viable and it isn't poorly designed because every army out there that is relevant also has a good handful of relevant Battalions. What is still very open to discuss in my opinion is that the rule that allows Battalion to count as a one-drop 'unit' is "bad design" as it currently still shapes the metagame for better or worse. We have come closer to good design by adding 100 points but this shouldn't apply to all Battalions...

Edited by Killax

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53 minutes ago, Killax said:

We have come closer to good design by adding 100 points but this shouldn't apply to all Battalions...

Very few items are even worth 100 points when you can't take multiples, 

1 or 2 maybe of 6 are only ever taken the others are typically narratively designed.

 

A blanket +100 points to all battalions is using a sword when a scalpel is required, sure they fixed the problem but they also done alot of collateral damage in the process.

 

In regard to the slaughter priests, they aren't as bad as alot of other things, and the enemy still needs to be within range and you still need to cast it and then it's a d6. Sure the battalion helps but you're paying 180 ? Points for it.

some of that goes towards the bloodsecrator obviously but to do that you need a slaughterpriest So id say that's the tax (if you didn't need to take priests to increase the banner radius I expect people wouldn't )

so you're paying more per priest if we devide the units affects by the battalion cost 180/4= 45 points So each priest is actually 145 points, and the secrator 165. This goes up as priests go down.

 

Seems fair to me, 145 points for a priest with rerolls to cast

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All he needs to do is bring a Knight Venator and a loremaster and just start sniping out your priests. 

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23 minutes ago, chord said:

All he needs to do is bring a Knight Venator and a loremaster and just start sniping out your priests. 

I find countering one person's list speicifally a little cheap..just build your lists.

as it turns into a escalation of buying units to counter the others list etc and can end up being not fun.

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I play gore pilgrims and in my opinion 16" is not long enough range to be considered unfair for slaughterpriests.

Remember that if you want to make the most of pulling enemies in, you can't have all your slaughterpriests in one place.  And spreading them out too far away from the bloodsecrator loses another important buff.   Mechanics that make you make decisions like this on the table are good.

Also they are easily sniped ad wiped as others said.

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Basically my question is, within the context of the gorepilgrims, are slaughterpriests too good for 100 points?

Responding to @Gotrek, I think Slaughterpriests are correctly pointed and balanced. Yes Blood Boil can be scary but it's a 50% success/fail rate and a 16.7% chance they hurt themselves (outside of Gore Pilgrims I mean). And with a 5+ Save, they can die easily in combat or ranged.

I also think Gore Pilgrims is balanced as well. "Within the context of Gore Pilgrims" means you are spending a minimum of 670 points for the re-rolling prayers and Bloodsecrator range increase, 770 if you take three.

And, as others have pointed out, they must remain within 8" of the Bloodsecrator to maintain the banner increase; So the Slaughterpriests will usually be clumped around the Bloodsecrator. That means there is a 320-420 point clump of very important heroes in your deployment zone (e.g. not scoring in Duality of Death). Your opponent can swarm them easily and take them out in combat or focus them down with ranged.

Blood Boil is a 16" threat range which is small compared to the threat range of strong ranged units (Kurnoth hunters 30" + teleport move, Judicators 24"+ 5" move, Skyfires 30"+16" move, etc...). It isn't hard for the Slaughterpriests to get picked off one by one. And, as each one dies, the Bloodsecrator range decreases 8" which lowers the effectiveness of your units that are out grabbing objectives (and makes them vulnerable to battleshock).

TLDR;

I think 100 points for Slaughterpriests is right, given they are squishy and can also hurt themselves with failed prayers (which happens!). Yes it sucks when you get triple blood boiled but that means you got close enough to let them do it! Take the Slaughterpriests out with ranged first, or swarm them in combat.

SIDE NOTE:

I know some people take issue with the fact that there is no rule of 1 for Prayers/abilities; and they cite Blood Boil as the main example. In my opinion, there are other abilities that are far more powerful than a 16" range 50% chance to do d6 mortal wounds. For example, the Orruk Warchanter's Frenzy of Violence ability that gives +1 to Hit on a unit; no rolling or anything, it just happens (and it can stack!) A 10 man unit of Brutes hitting on 2's is way scarier to me.

 

Edited by ReverendDangles
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Have to say that in practice games I rarely have heard this complaint. The reason why Khorne matters also comes from their Artefacts, Blood Blessings and obviously Bloodsecrator.

In the end lets be fair here, Khorne is a good army but hasnt dominated any season or set of tournaments in particular. This is an indication of design done right.

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17 hours ago, Spiny Norman said:

Hate it when people whine about stormfiends. It's the only unit keeping Skaven competitive, so don't compare them out of context.

Gee, seeing as I was the only one who'd mentioned them, I can only read this as you suggesting I was whining by saying they were "one of the best units out there". Seems a bit unfair and oversensitive to be honest. I doubt you'd find many people, if any, who'd disagree with me.

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And, as others have pointed out, they must remain within 8" of the Bloodsecrator to maintain the banner increase; So the Slaughterpriests will usually be clumped around the Bloodsecrator.

Well according to this, once the portal is open, they can go wherever they want, dont they?

 

Widening the Rift: The baleful chanting and bloody deeds of the Slaughterpriests greatly empower the Portal of Skulls borne by the Gore Pilgrims’ Bloodsecrator, tearing a ragged breach into Khorne’s realm through which the Blood God’s boundless hate can freely flow. Increase the range of the Portal of Skulls ability of this battalion’s Bloodsecrator by 6" for each of this battalion’s SLAUGHTERPRIESTS that are within 8" of him when he opens the Portal of Skulls.

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Well one of the most common misconceptions (or misplays) is that the Portal of Skulls would remain open once open. So far, when we look at all passed Warscrolls for the Bloodsecrator this never really was stated on any of the Warscrolls.
One opens the Portal of Skulls in the Hero phase and the abilities obtained are granted until the next players Hero phase. To me this implies that the Portal of Skulls has to be re-opened every controlling Hero phase because otherwise the abilities obtained are lost.
To date I really don't know where this misconception comes from. Because if you read it in any other way the only other option that is left is that the Bloodsecrator cannot move only once when he opened the Portal of Skuls.

So @Rubencm81 the Slaughterpriest can indeed move but because the Bloodsecrator cannot you'd be working with a worse range the next Hero phase when the Bloodsecrator opens the Portal of Skulls (again). It's possible to do this but in practice for me it has mend that one Slaughterpriest will hang back with the Bloodsecrator. The downside of this is that it also quite often means that that Slaughterpriest in particular does not have a legal target for Blood Boil or Bloodbind turn 1 or 2. 
 

Edited by Killax

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The upside is if running 3 priest you wouldn't really need 36" range, nor 30" much really either. So you can play at least one aggressively.

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4 hours ago, Killax said:

Well one of the most common misconceptions (or misplays) is that the Portal of Skulls would remain open once open. So far, when we look at all passed Warscrolls for the Bloodsecrator this never really was stated on any of the Warscrolls.
One opens the Portal of Skulls in the Hero phase and the abilities obtained are granted until the next players Hero phase. To me this implies that the Portal of Skulls has to be re-opened every controlling Hero phase because otherwise the abilities obtained are lost.
To date I really don't know where this misconception comes from. Because if you read it in any other way the only other option that is left is that the Bloodsecrator cannot move only once when he opened the Portal of Skuls.

So @Rubencm81 the Slaughterpriest can indeed move but because the Bloodsecrator cannot you'd be working with a worse range the next Hero phase when the Bloodsecrator opens the Portal of Skulls (again). It's possible to do this but in practice for me it has mend that one Slaughterpriest will hang back with the Bloodsecrator. The downside of this is that it also quite often means that that Slaughterpriest in particular does not have a legal target for Blood Boil or Bloodbind turn 1 or 2. 
 

Even still, we now have a definition for the difference between "within" and "fully within." Thus meaning you can move your slaughterpriests up and have their base gently grace the 8" bubble from the Bloodsecrator and still get the range. Meaning you deploy the BS just shy of the 12" line, in cover if possible, then open skulls, throughout the game move one priest up so that they are shy 2" from the centerline, and the other two not far from it. This does not make them 100% mobile, but it extends 10-14" range into your opponents deployment zone and helps to keep you opponent on their half of the board. This is why I run a good amount of blood warriors as a base of my lists, You need to have them in front of the priests. Drop lists are as stated above, a lot more tricky and you may need to walk with your secrator before opening the portal. But there aren't a lot of drop lists where I play, so I don't have a ton of experience with them.

If you do end up moving your entire list on turn one, that gives it even more a reason to leave only one priest behind that can still have a 10" mobility range and still be compatible with Gore Pilgrim's ability.

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The blood secrator is the obvious star of a bloodbound force. The priests help enable him, but they aren’t unstoppable. I’m shocked stormcast have an issue, stormcast have amazing snipers, and sniping characters is useful against like 90 percent of lists

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On 10/29/2017 at 9:33 PM, stratigo said:

The blood secrator is the obvious star of a bloodbound force. The priests help enable him, but they aren’t unstoppable. I’m shocked stormcast have an issue, stormcast have amazing snipers, and sniping characters is useful against like 90 percent of lists

He tends to try and focus down my bloodthirster and bloodletters (well, the bloodletters that his decimators arent going to turn into stroganoff)

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On 10/28/2017 at 1:29 AM, ReverendDangles said:

SIDE NOTE:

I know some people take issue with the fact that there is no rule of 1 for Prayers/abilities; and they cite Blood Boil as the main example. In my opinion, there are other abilities that are far more powerful than a 16" range 50% chance to do d6 mortal wounds. For example, the Orruk Warchanter's Frenzy of Violence ability that gives +1 to Hit on a unit; no rolling or anything, it just happens (and it can stack!) A 10 man unit of Brutes hitting on 2's is way scarier to me.

 

Personally I do think they're probably too strong for the points cost, especially in the batallion.  The fact that they have 2 prayers (both of which are very strong) going off 75% of the time, that stack and cannot be unbound, is probably too strong for my money.  I think it's a good thing that the original Rules of One prevented wizards from spamming their spells (even though wizards are also mostly squishy / can be sniped), and I think it would also be a good thing for that apply to Prayers too.

It's very feasible to stack multiple +1 to Hit / +1 to Wound AND multiple Blood Boils with the Slaughterpriests, so I don't agree that the Warchanter is more powerful.  

Just my 2 cents, but I would like to see the Rule of One applied to Prayers in GH18 for the reasons above.

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Yes they are. If someone who has access to good sniping tools is having problems with slaughterpriests, it is in their hands to fix it.

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On 27 October 2017 at 6:36 AM, Spiny Norman said:

Hate it when people whine about stormfiends. It's the only unit keeping Skaven competitive, so don't compare them out of context.

Priests are alright. Khorne armies aren't imbalanced in any case. In fact I think they are pretty much the best balanced of the new armys. Tough, many options, beatable.

Go open a thread out Tzeentch / FEC when it comes to fairness.

Cheers.

Keeping skaven competitive isn't a valid reason to shield SF from legitimate criticism. The fact that one unit keeps a whole faction in the game should be a indicator of how BS and OTT they are.

If we look at priests in the same light they aren't the one unit keeping BoK in the game.

3 with gore pilgrims is pretty much the optimum so judging priests from that will give you a skewed view.

I enjoy playing priests due to their flexibility and the tactical options they offer, they are easy to counter and come with their own intrinsic drawbacks which leads to a risk reward management style of play I like.

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