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zabbraxas

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So, a situation arose during a recent match with my stormcast vs. the sepulchral guard.

my opponent used the card ceaseless attacks after he attacked with his warden in order to make another attack with his champion against my steelheart several hexes away. Now, my steelheart was equipped with heroic stride. My opponent argued that I couldn't react to his champion's attack with my heroic stride because it was the warden who activated and not the champion.

ceaseless attacks- Reaction: play this after a friendly fighter's attack action. Make an attack action with another friendly fighter.

heroic stride- Reaction: After an enemy fighter ends their activation within two hexes of this fighter, you can push this fighter one hex.

I was thinking that because his reaction started a new attack action, that I would be able to react to that. Am I wrong?

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2 hours ago, ReynakZhen said:

So, a situation arose during a recent match with my stormcast vs. the sepulchral guard.

my opponent used the card ceaseless attacks after he attacked with his warden in order to make another attack with his champion against my steelheart several hexes away. Now, my steelheart was equipped with heroic stride. My opponent argued that I couldn't react to his champion's attack with my heroic stride because it was the warden who activated and not the champion.

ceaseless attacks- Reaction: play this after a friendly fighter's attack action. Make an attack action with another friendly fighter.

heroic stride- Reaction: After an enemy fighter ends their activation within two hexes of this fighter, you can push this fighter one hex.

I was thinking that because his reaction started a new attack action, that I would be able to react to that. Am I wrong?

IMHO no Heroic Stride. The champion does not activate, he simply gets to do an attack action. Ergo, no, it should not trigger Heroic Stride (unless the warden himself was within range of Severin, since the warden is the one activating in this case).

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Interesting one. On balance I’d take a different view - I’d say you can do heroic stride. The rule book is clear in stating that players make activations but fighters take actions. So the concept of whether the activation is the warden’s or the champion’s is a red herring to me - it’s not either of them doing the activation, it’s the player controlling them.

The wording on the card is unhelpful in that it refers to the fighter ending their activation, which as I say, isn’t possible because fighters don’t make activations in the first place. Ho-hum.

Hmmm... If the focus of the card is meant to be the end of an activation then in theory that would mean enemy fighters already within 2 hexes could trigger this, even if those particular fighters didn’t make an action that turn...that would make the card more powerful...

...whereas if the focus of the card is the end of an action by a specific fighter, then only that specific fighter ending their action within 2 would trigger it. That narrows the scope of the card’s effect...

A rules errata amending the wording to either of the below should sort it (choose which one depending on what the card is intended to do):

1) after an enemy fighter ends their action within two hexes of this fighter, you can push this fighter one hex (this is how I’d play it right now)

2) at the end of an opponent’s activation, if there are any enemy fighters within two hexes of this fighter, you can push this fighter one hex

I assume it’s the former that’s intended as the card seems too powerful if it’s the latter. Plus the first one just requires one word to be amended, and it’s probably just that one word (‘activation’) being used in place of ‘action’ by mistake in the drafting that’s caused the problem.

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Need some help please chaps, can an upgrade be attached to a fighter that's taken out of action? Important to know for Guard and Swarm but curious if you can attach a restricted upgrade to an out of action fighter to stop a Daylight Robbery. Many thanks for your help.

 

Edit: Figured it out, pg 29 of the core rule book, no you can't.

Edited by Skinnyboy
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I'm inclined to say the attacker re-rolls before the defender rolls. The combat sequence has the attacker roll first so we know it's not a simultaneous roll.

The glossary entry for re-roll says "When a rule tells you to re-roll a dice, pick it up and roll it again."  That doesn't exactly say when you do so but I read it as happening right away if you're not happy with a result. 

Edited by Daveman
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Want some thoughts on the Flee! card for Skaven. An upgrade only for Skritch, wording:

"Action: This fighter and one adjacent friendly fighter can make a Move Action. Both fighters must end their move further away from all enemy fighters."

1) Can this be used to make multiple Move Actions in a turn? For comparison, the Warden's ability to move two models specifically states that it cannot be used to make two Move Actions in a turn, but there is no such wording on Flee!

2) Can this be used if Skritch is by himself? Does he need an adjacent friendly fighter to use it?

2b) If there is an adjacent friendly fighter, can I choose not to move him with Flee even if Skritch moves?

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On 2.02.2018 at 1:39 AM, ReynakZhen said:

my opponent used the card ceaseless attacks after he attacked with his warden in order to make another attack with his champion against my steelheart several hexes away. Now, my steelheart was equipped with heroic stride. My opponent argued that I couldn't react to his champion's attack with my heroic stride because it was the warden who activated and not the champion.

ceaseless attacks- Reaction: play this after a friendly fighter's attack action. Make an attack action with another friendly fighter.

heroic stride- Reaction: After an enemy fighter ends their activation within two hexes of this fighter, you can push this fighter one hex.

I was thinking that because his reaction started a new attack action, that I would be able to react to that. Am I wrong?

Your opponent was closer to the truth. However, the correct answer is: you can play only one reaction at the same time.

When Warden's attack ends, his activation also ends, so this point in time is the trigger for both reactions.

In case you have doubts, read the rulebook page 24. This is also confirmed in FAQ, page 2:

A: No. The action and the activation end simultaneously,
so only one Reaction can be played. That Reaction could
be triggered either by the action or the activation.

If Warden was using multi attack: your opponent would be able to interrupt with "Ceaseless attacks" (after the first attack, for example), then Warden would finish his remaining attacks, and then finally you would be able to respond to his end of activation.

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On 2.02.2018 at 8:37 AM, Rintrah56 said:

Interesting one. On balance I’d take a different view - I’d say you can do heroic stride. The rule book is clear in stating that players make activations but fighters take actions. So the concept of whether the activation is the warden’s or the champion’s is a red herring to me - it’s not either of them doing the activation, it’s the player controlling them.

The wording on the card is unhelpful in that it refers to the fighter ending their activation, which as I say, isn’t possible because fighters don’t make activations in the first place. Ho-hum.

Hmmm... If the focus of the card is meant to be the end of an activation then in theory that would mean enemy fighters already within 2 hexes could trigger this, even if those particular fighters didn’t make an action that turn...that would make the card more powerful...

...whereas if the focus of the card is the end of an action by a specific fighter, then only that specific fighter ending their action within 2 would trigger it. That narrows the scope of the card’s effect...

A rules errata amending the wording to either of the below should sort it (choose which one depending on what the card is intended to do):

1) after an enemy fighter ends their action within two hexes of this fighter, you can push this fighter one hex (this is how I’d play it right now)

2) at the end of an opponent’s activation, if there are any enemy fighters within two hexes of this fighter, you can push this fighter one hex

I assume it’s the former that’s intended as the card seems too powerful if it’s the latter. Plus the first one just requires one word to be amended, and it’s probably just that one word (‘activation’) being used in place of ‘action’ by mistake in the drafting that’s caused the problem.

If you read more rules and cards you will see that the game uses the term activation properly. Fighters' actions are part of the activation (page 18).

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4 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I'm inclined as you are, but I don't feel right denying my opponent based on inclination rather than a rule.

Your opponent should understand that whenever is a doubt, a better solution is to go for reasonable, less weird, less powerful option, because when you do opposite, when a FAQ comes out and says contrary, all your games (and tournaments!) will be invalidated.

Re-roll by definition is "... pick up the dice and roll it again". Common sense: it's not "wait for something and then roll again if it suits you". Simply: roll again (immediately). If that's not enough to convince your opponent, then show them page 20: the rules require a sequence: roll and count successes. If you want to re-roll later, you already counted your successes, you cannot go back and count them again.

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Oh, I get all that. I really do, but -

There Is legitimate greyness around the timing of his particular rule and the sequence of rolling attack and defense dice during an Attack action. 

And.

In a tournament,  I expect my opponents to play to the letter of the rules.  If I can't show them,  by the rules, that they are taking a currently (not how a future FAQ might rule, but the rules as of the event) illegal action, it would be poor sportsmanship on my part to expect them to not do a given thing simply because I don't think they should. 

Everything - except the actual rules - screams to me that Gurzag cannot wait to see his opponent's dice, but I have no rules to support this. 

Keep in mind, this is GW's attempt at a tight, competitive,  tournament game. Players should expect a different type of interaction in this than they would in, say, a narrative AoS game.

Edited by Sleboda
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10 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Oh, I get all that. I really do, but -

There Is legitimate greyness around the timing of his particular rule and the sequence of rolling attack and defense dice during an Attack action. 

And.

In a tournament,  I expect my opponents to play to the letter of the rules.  If I can't show them,  by the rules, that they are taking a currently (not how a future FAQ might rule, but the rules as of the event) illegal action, it would be poor sportsmanship on my part to expect them to not do a given thing simply because I don't think they should. 

Everything - except the actual rules - screams to me that Gurzag cannot wait to see his opponent's dice, but I have no rules to support this. 

Keep in mind, this is GW's attempt at a tight, competitive,  tournament game. Players should expect a different type of interaction in this than they would in, say, a narrative AoS game.

I understand. Unfortunately, GW will not be able to fulfill this attempt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is their first card game. Although I'm positively surprised how well they did it, there will be a constant "greyness". Thus, a judge is needed during tournament in your scenario of "sportsmanship doubt". During a friendly game you can look from a "tight/competitive" point of view: we all have played many games and re-roll is just repeating the roll, if you do it later, then it's not re-rolling anymore, it's modifying the dice result. For example, the ability of changing the result in this game would be in a form of "reaction: after your opponent rolled the defence dice, you can re-roll the attak dice and recount your number of successes." I just think this is a problem category when opponent tries to bend the everimperfect rules, I might be wrong though.

If you focus only on the time part of the Gurzag's ability, then what stops you (besides common sense) from re-rolling the defence dice? :)

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1 hour ago, Requizen said:

Want some thoughts on the Flee! card for Skaven. An upgrade only for Skritch, wording:

"Action: This fighter and one adjacent friendly fighter can make a Move Action. Both fighters must end their move further away from all enemy fighters."

1) Can this be used to make multiple Move Actions in a turn? For comparison, the Warden's ability to move two models specifically states that it cannot be used to make two Move Actions in a turn, but there is no such wording on Flee!

2) Can this be used if Skritch is by himself? Does he need an adjacent friendly fighter to use it?

2b) If there is an adjacent friendly fighter, can I choose not to move him with Flee even if Skritch moves?

We must wait for the FAQ. Here is what I would do for the time being:

1) You can make this move even if you already moved, because of the golden rule (page 17). The card explicitly says you can (as you pointed out), so it contradicts the rulebook.

2) & 2b) Skritch can do this alone. If there is a companion, the companion does not have to move. Also, the companion can flee and Skritch can stay. Arguments for:

  • because of the word "can"
  • the words "both fighters must" is about the direction of the movement, not about the necessity of movement
  • Skritch's ability give him a chance to yell: "Flee!" - so his companion can decide if he will follow boss's orders or not. Likewise, it could be the order for the companion only if Skritch believes it's a better tactic

 

7 minutes ago, Rintrah56 said:

I do love this game (really I do), but the little niggles in the rules here and there are frustrating. But I guess that’s the same for many, many games on the market. I think I just need to chill out and enjoy it (knowing I’ll probably never play competitively) ?

Yes, it is frustrating. A good game must be complex, so we must pay the price. :)

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2 hours ago, Ploymaster said:

Your opponent was closer to the truth. However, the correct answer is: you can play only one reaction at the same time.

When Warden's attack ends, his activation also ends, so this point in time is the trigger for both reactions.

In case you have doubts, read the rulebook page 24. This is also confirmed in FAQ, page 2:

A: No. The action and the activation end simultaneously,
so only one Reaction can be played. That Reaction could
be triggered either by the action or the activation.

If Warden was using multi attack: your opponent would be able to interrupt with "Ceaseless attacks" (after the first attack, for example), then Warden would finish his remaining attacks, and then finally you would be able to respond to his end of activation.

Except that if the warden was using multi attack against my steelheart who is equipped with heroic stride, I would have the option to react first to move steelheart out of range before he could use his ceaseless attacks reaction to attack with another fighter. The who point of contention was that his warden wasn't in attack range of steeheart at all. His warden was attacking my Brightshield. But, used ceaseless attacks to start a new attack action with another of his fighters (champion) against my steelheart.

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4 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Well at least they are making an effort to FAQ it somewhat regularly. If people keep hitting their inbox, they'll FAQ things. Maybe not as often as we might like, but it's something.

Yep that is true and very much welcomed. In fairness it’s probably a small team reviewing with a lot of questions coming in. 

Another thing I’m wondering is if I’ve been playing glory points wrong all along - I think you were watching the stream the other night when that came up (about it needing to be your fighters that take an opponent out of action to get the glory)?

I was absolutely adamant at the time that you get glory anytime an enemy fighter gets taken out of action, even if not directly by your fighters in combat, but having re-read the rules and FAQ now I’m questioning whether that’s right...

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4 minutes ago, ReynakZhen said:

Except that if the warden was using multi attack against my steelheart who is equipped with heroic stride, I would have the option to react first to move steelheart out of range before he could use his ceaseless attacks reaction

Only in case of the last attack of multi attack. Otherwise you can't use Heroic stride, because Warden's activation has not ended yet.

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4 minutes ago, Rintrah56 said:

Yep that is true and very much welcomed. In fairness it’s probably a small team reviewing with a lot of questions coming in. 

Another thing I’m wondering is if I’ve been playing glory points wrong all along - I think you were watching the stream the other night when that came up (about it needing to be your fighters that take an opponent out of action to get the glory)?

I was absolutely adamant at the time that you get glory anytime an enemy fighter gets taken out of action, even if not directly by your fighters in combat, but having re-read the rules and FAQ now I’m questioning whether that’s right...

The FAQ clarifies that (at least in a 2 player game), any time a Fighter takes all their wounds, their opponent gains a Glory.

There is a bit of a question over whether or not Expendable grants a glory, since you just remove it without allocating any wounds. 

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That was exactly what I thought - and still do to be honest...the thing that threw me was that the section of the FAQ in question is an errata amending the wording of the ‘outcome of combat’ section of the rules. So the implication/suggestion they were raising, I think, was that it only refers to times when a fighter sustains damage equal to or greater than their wounds characteristic as a result of combat. Which would exclude a whole host of other (non-combat) situations where damage can cause a fighter to be taken out of action.

Doesn’t help that the glossary also refers explicitly to fighters taking opposing fighters out of action...

I’m still inclined to stick with the POV of any time taken out of action = glory point (and agree that Expendable is problematic here), but just couldn’t find anything concrete to back that feeling up.

Edited by Rintrah56
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