Let's chat: Sepulchral Guard

[Killax]

It can certainly happen! However for Sepulchral Guard I also would find it difficult to cut down the other Upgrade choices to 4-5. Generally speaking Ancient Commander, Deathly Charge, Fatal Strike, Frightning Speed, Grim Cleave, Lethal Lunge, Great Strenght, Shardcaller and Shadeglass Darts are very good Sepulchral Guard choices too. Especially with Shadeglass Darts any fighter that charged in your territory becomes an easy meal quickly.

[Peegee]

21 hours ago, Goblin-King said:

How did your final deck end out Peegee?

I keep winning with it now ! I think I play with it more accurately as well. 

I still need to improve my 3 Round movements tricks which are critical in my opinion. The run and objective grabbing in opponent territory means victory in most of the cases : you can score Supremacy even with only 2 objectives on your side, and more important you block Denial and Contained (6 points) against Stormcast/Orruks decks.  

[Sleboda]

Quick morning note -

I got in a bunch of 3 way games yesterday. Wow, is that ever a different experience for the Guard. They are significantly worse in this situation. I will try some more, but I don't think I'll end up stitching with them in future 3 way games. 

Actually,  we all agreed that 3 way on general is a much lessened experience compared to 2 player games, so we might be done with them entirely anyway. 

[Goblin-King]

11 hours ago, Peegee said:

I keep winning with it now ! I think I play with it more accurately as well. 

I still need to improve my 3 Round movements tricks which are critical in my opinion. The run and objective grabbing in opponent territory means victory in most of the cases : you can score Supremacy even with only 2 objectives on your side, and more important you block Denial and Contained (6 points) against Stormcast/Orruks decks.  

Can you post your current deck list and a short description of how you play? 
I'm rather interested in getting started with the living dead myself

[Mournfang's mourning]

Getting into Shadespire and want to start with the Sepulchral Guards.

This is the deck I came up with so far. My goal is to play more objective focused / defensive style with a litte bit of offensive pressure.

Objectives (12/12)
- Hold Objective 1-5
- Tactical Supremacy 1-2
- Tactical Supremacy 3-4
- Determined Defender
- Flawless Strategey
- Supremacy
- Superior Tactician
- Skills Unforgotten / Battle Without End

Ploys (10/10)
- The Necormancer Commands
- Ceaseless Attacks
- Danse Macabre
- Restless Dead
- Terrifying Screams
- Illusory Fighter
- Confusion
- Distraction
- Sidestep
- Shardfall

Upgrades (10/10)
- Ancient Commander
- Leathal Lunge
- Grim Cleave
- Great Strength
- Soultrap
- Frightening Speed
- Great Speed
- The Shadow Key
- The Dazzling Key
- Shardcaller

Is Claim the City really possible? Might be worth dropping Skills Unforgotten / Battle Without End for that?
I am thinking to maybe switch something for Shadeglass Darts and/or Deathly Charge, but not really shure what to put out. Maybe one/both key(s)?
Also was taking Sprint and Spectral Form into consideration instead of Ceaseless Attack and Necromancer Commands for more movement options, but that would cost me some offenive ability.

Any helpful feedback? Thanks in advance!

 

[Killax]

@Mournfang's mourning looks very solid to me, just one comment, I think Shardglass Darts is objectively better for this deck as Great Speed is. Sounds a bit daft maby but it allows for so much more combat support and really synergizes extremely well with the 2 damage that the Harvester and Champion deal and offcourse Lethal Lunge. It essentially adds a fourth relevant fighter and has been gold for me in almost all decks. Especially if you like standing on Objectives it helps that we can attack from the exact same position.

I personally don't think Claim the City is realistic now. But who knows maby we'll see more Shardcaller like effects. I think Skills Unforgotten is much better. The Warden wants to get in there, the way you are set up now you don't really have to move much. You just want Shardcaller somewhere in round 1 or 2.

As above I think you can drop a Great Speed. You have Illusory Fighter,  Confusion, Distraction, Screams, Danse Macabre, Frightning Speed, Ancient Commander and the Warden and resurrection options to "improve speed".  In addition an Inspired Fighter has movement 3 so really no movement issue should ever really occur. I can't say I've seen a game played as it should where it became an issue. It just means that Distraction and Screams will usually be used to push enemies into attack range, this is okay too.

[Mournfang's mourning]

@Killax Seems very plausible. Going to drop the Great Speed for the Darts. Thanks for the input!! Really appreciate your quick response

What do you think about the Deathly Charge? The Champion already has a Cleave attack and Great Strength seems to do the same as the Deathly Charge. If you think it might be worth though, what would be good dropping out of the deck for it?

[Killax]

@Mournfang's mourning I like Deadly Charge as it sticks, it's not massively important but does mean he can strike for 3 Cleave, which is relevant against Gurzag and the likely Great Fortitude or Blessed by Sigmar you'll encounter against Stormcast. Being able to deal 3 Cleave means the Warden needs to be less involved aswell. Its difficult to cut anything for it though. So your good with a small change I feel (Darts).

[Mournfang's mourning]

@Killax Thank you a lot!

I have a rules questions concerning the Cleave in general. Does it mean that if i.e. Fighters that use the Shield to block will need to roll a Crit to not get hit when attacked by a cleave attack or does the Dodge symbol count in this case as well for them? What about Fighters that only have the Dodge symbol to defend themselves?

[Killax]

@Mournfang's mourning it does mean that, unless they are on Guard. Cleave removes Shields as succesful rolls. It doesnt do as much against Dodge defence warriors but in those match ups the Harvester is fantastic. 

[Mournfang's mourning]

@Killax Thanks for clearing that up for me Appreciate your input!!

[Squigster]

17 minutes ago, Killax said:

@Mournfang's mourning it does mean that, unless they are on Guard. Cleave removes Shields as succesful rolls. It doesnt do as much against Dodge defence warriors but in those match ups the Harvester is fantastic. 

So if a unit is on guard, an attack with cleave won't have any effect on him? He can still defend with dodge symbols AND shields?

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, Mournfang's mourning said:

Is Claim the City really possible?

I've played maybe 35 games now, and one time - once - I accidentally got all 5 objectives (didn't have the card in my hand).  I think it's a fun card to chase, but not viable in a tournament setting.

@Squigster Cleave still gets through shield for those on Guard.

[Bademeister]

7 hours ago, Squigster said:

So if a unit is on guard, an attack with cleave won't have any effect on him? He can still defend with dodge symbols AND shields?

Cleave ignores just SHIELDS. 1 model with Shields on his sheet and putted on guard, attacked by an other model with cleave, got succsesfull rolls on crit and on evasion.

[Peegee]

12 hours ago, Goblin-King said:

Can you post your current deck list and a short description of how you play? 
I'm rather interested in getting started with the living dead myself

Here is the last version of my deck :

Objectives

1. Hold Objective 1
2. Hold Objective 2
3. Hold Objective 3
4. Hold Objective 4
5. Hold Objective 5
6. Tactical Supremacy 1-2
7. Tactical Supremacy 3-4
8. Skills Unforgotten
9. Supremacy
10. Battle Without Ends
11. Determined Defenser
12. Ploymaster

Ploys

1. Ceaseless Attacks
2. Restless Dead
3. Terrifying Screams
4. The Necromancer Commands
5. Confusion
6. Distraction
7. Duel of Wits
8. Illusory Fighter
9. Shardfall
10. Danse Macabre

Upgrades

1. Frightening Speed
2. Grim Cleave
3. Lethal Lunge
4. Deathly Charge
5. Great Strength
6. Shadeglass Darts
7. Shardcaller
8. Soultrap
9. The Dazzling Key
10. Daemonic Weapon

 

For the strategy, @Killax nailed it precisely in his many posts : move the Petitioners on Objectives, Create a "wall" with Champion, Prince and Harvester to contain opponent attacks, move forward mid-field your Warden and kill through your fighters with his unique 2 hex range. Score as much as possible and in the last Round of battle, move one or two fighters if you can in opponent territory to deny Denial and Contained. You may adapt depending of your match-up : Champion is a beast against Stormcasts and Orruks due to Cleave, Harvester is better against multi-opponent -> Reavers and mirror match.

That's pretty much it, practise a lot, it's not the simplest warband but when you start mastering it, you'll be rewarded ^^

[Goblin-King]

Thanks a lot. I'll try it out at LFGS tournament tomorrow.
Deck is very similar to my own first draft. I'm not far off.

[spazz]

22 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Quick morning note -

I got in a bunch of 3 way games yesterday. Wow, is that ever a different experience for the Guard. They are significantly worse in this situation. I will try some more, but I don't think I'll end up stitching with them in future 3 way games. 

Actually,  we all agreed that 3 way on general is a much lessened experience compared to 2 player games, so we might be done with them entirely anyway. 

First post here, hows everyone doing? 

Sleboda, I'm curious what you & your group find to be a lessened experience playing a 3 way game? I find it to be the exact opposite, but truth told I only have a handful of games under my belt so that can change. With my group I'm the Orc's warband but the Sepulchral player does quite well (better than me). We've yet to have a 4 way game but this week it might happen.

Anyway thanks folks for this great forum & I hope to be a productive member here 

[Goblin-King]

My bet here - and note I'm talking out my ***. I have not actually tried 3 or 4 player games.
A 3 way could possibly be fun if you view it as a beer and pretzels game. In a competetive environment it probably becomes unbalanced/random.
I hope they introduce a 2 vs 2 version.

[Killax]

34 minutes ago, spazz said:

First post here, hows everyone doing? 

Sleboda, I'm curious what you & your group find to be a lessened experience playing a 3 way game? I find it to be the exact opposite, but truth told I only have a handful of games under my belt so that can change. With my group I'm the Orc's warband but the Sepulchral player does quite well (better than me). We've yet to have a 4 way game but this week it might happen.

Anyway thanks folks for this great forum & I hope to be a productive member here 

All is going great, next tournament is this weekend so Ill be able to give another round of coverage. 

What I think Sleboda expected is that the vibe of the game remained the same but in reality it doesn't. Multiplayer games are much more political driven and the player who's ahead of the game or usually the winner of most games can often find themselves being the first target, for the simple reason that others know he's a good player and will handle it as such. 

What I personally think is more ideal to create a 'improved' non-sandwiched game is to have the 3 tiles connected to each other with as much hexes as possible. The rulesbook gives such an example and it just means that nobody can stay out of the fight and this is more ideal than to have an L-shaped board set up. 

18 minutes ago, Goblin-King said:

My bet here - and note I'm talking out my ***. I have not actually tried 3 or 4 player games.
A 3 way could possibly be fun if you view it as a beer and pretzels game. In a competetive environment it probably becomes unbalanced/random.
I hope they introduce a 2 vs 2 version.

I think that multiplayers arn't really random and could actually be used for a competitive setting just as easily. The prime difference however is the time involved and usually the political aspect.

In my experience Shadespire's decks are allready very much alike to Elder Dragon Highlander decks from Magic the Gathering, now called Commander I believe. They work similar because both work with a max 1 of each card per deck. To me this doesn't really generate random games or hands but just means that every Round will work out very different per game. So far Ive also not had similar opening hands and the way you set up with say a Confusion as opposed to Illusory Fighter is also extremely different.

Back to multiplayer though, I am personally a fan of the removing the board set up aspect for a 3 player game. With a 4 player game the players will most logically form 2 groups of 2 to archieve their plans but with a 3 way 2 players are easier going to co-opt or one player will do practically nothing round 1 and clean up whatever is left in their round 2 and 3. The T-shaped board set up usually works best to offset any disadvantages.
Alternatively one can place the Katophrane Artefact token so the middle board has a great claim in that stake while 1 of the 3 players will not.

[BaldoBeardo]

Tried Peegee's deck in two games V. Stormcast tonight. Bit of savvy board and objective placing to bait bottlenecks.

1st game was a 12-8 (I think) win.

2nd game went on the offensive as I fancied my chances with my power card hand.

Whew. Harvester and Champion can wreck face when they want to. Opponent's force reduced to a wounded Obryn by his 3rd turn 1 activation.

Final score 11-4. Had 15-4 lined up but opponent didn't take the bait and took out an objective grabber turn 3.

Really feel I'm getting the hang of the Guard. Am going to look at tailoring the objectives a little (swapping in some "score immediately" cards tailored to opposition to try and cycle objectives quicker.

Pretty happy with the power deck - didn't have to dump cards and finished most turns having to draw at least 3. I'll stick with it for a while but I think any future changes will be a one-in, one-out affair based on what the next few sets provide.

[Killax]

Pretty much think players tried the winners deck and see the error in that design and the swift conclusion came that it didnt work for them

What makes the Objective tokens so relevant for the Warband is that we plain and simple get the most out of the Warden's double move Action which is currently unpresidented in any other Warband, same with ressurection offcourse.

This weekend will be pretty much be playing what I'm trying to sell  A very Objective focused Objective deck, an aggressive and defensive Ploy part (let your opponent come) and Upgrades that tilt melee offense and Glory income. By using the keys we again have a use for all 7 models and that matters most, despite having only 3 fighters that can really fight.

Which isnt to say that melee orientated variants of the deck cant excist, it's just that your not playing into your strengths and not covering your only weakness well (which is a round 1-2 Warden loss).

Just remember...

[Sleboda]

@spazz and others

Here is what I mean by a lessened experience.

In the large majority of games, we found that the person in the middle was at a very big disadvantage, and not in that fun, "oh let's overcome this, I like a challenge" sort of way.  It was sort of pointless to try, especially if you are playing objective-based strategies. In particular, as the undead player, I was getting one-shotted by Sigmar dudes on one side and Orcs on the other, and could not one-shot either of them since they all have at least 4 wounds.  In a one-on-one you can buy some time, get some objectives, upgrade, then go kill.  In 3-way, you are dead before you can do that.

Plus, there were games where the normally aggressive orc player opted to just sit all the way in back and let the other two fight while she got the objectives.  Very un-orclike.

I dunno. It just took the game from a really engaging, back and forth, exciting game to one where one player was largely out of it and the others just wanted to run in and kill. A whole lot less fun.

Also, it really, really, slowed the game down.  Our Stormcast player had a very hard time getting used to the alternating rotation of play sequence and also spent far, far too much time reading all his cards over and over at each step just to try to account for the additional player.

 

Instead of a fast-paced action strategy tactical rompy good time, it became tedious and boring. It really sucked the heart out of the game for us.

 

[Killax]

@Sleboda certainly retry minus the free board placement for a 3 game. In addition reading all the cards should be kept to a minimum. I mean usually 5 cards can be read during an opponents activation.

[Sleboda]

One of my opponents (the Stormcast guy) actually suggested we place the boards in a more 'balanced' way, but I had none of it. I don't believe - like, EVER - that you should change the rules of the game just to make it easier for one player or another.  Play the game. Take your losses. Get better.

As to the card reading, yeah. He needs to pick up the pace.

Besides, we did have one game in the 'triangle' formation that, in theory, should not put a player in the middle, but it still ended up that way, just less obviously so.

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

How dare you force someone to do something "unbalanced"! [incoherent and obnoxious rant]