Cavalry in Age of Sigmar (includes some whinging)

[Twitch of Izalith]

Is it just me or does cavalry not really do what it’s supposed to do in AoS?

I have been getting a bit salty at the points cost of drakespawn knights so I started comparing them to a bunch of other heavy cavalry units which all seem to be more points efficient.

A couple of people then pointed out they have decent saves with a re-roll and that they are a solid fast unit for grabbing objectives. These are fair points but in some ways it just made me even more salty.

I don’t want to use what should be elite shock troops for grabbing objectives I want to use them to crush my enemies, see them driven before me and hear the lamentation of the women 

To go back to the drakespawn. They get a +1 to wound if they charge so the lances are 1 attack 3+,3+, no rend, one damage. Out of 5 attacks you might get a couple of wounds if you are lucky. The mounts might get you 2 or 3 more.  Against resilient units like stormcast, fyreslayers or chaos warriors you probably end up with 1 wound after saves – or none. Charge over, they stand there and become even less effective (yes, it is possible)

Is this the way we want cavalry to work? Heavy armoured knights with lances, riding dinosaurs! ..but they bounce off naked dwarfs and can’t kill a 2 wound model with their lance even if they hit them full speed in the face with it…

It’s not just the dark elves either, pretty much all the heavy cavalry is a bit lame at doing what heavy cavalry were invented for – which is to run stuff over.

On the other hand I don’t want to see #cavalry meta come along and replace #horde meta. I want to see both types of unit be viable when they are used thoughtfully against appropriate targets.

The Gore-Grunta Charge rule is a good example of the type of thing that works well while keeping some balance – it only works if you get an 8” + charge off so it’s not by any means guaranteed, but if you get it, it does loads of damage. And they are 20 points cheaper than Drakespawn and have rend & more attacks  

Obviously I realise AoS is a fantasy game and its not supposed to be realistic, but when a dwarf with a giant steam powered Nerf gun has more armour piercing potential than several hundred kilo’s of Horse+armour+rider  all focused into a lance point… something is wrong.

Maybe I’m the only person bothered by this but It would be cool to hear what everyone else thinks. 8^th edition fantasy made cavalry unusable back in 2010 and I was kinda hoping someone at GW would do something about it by now.. 

[Menkeroth]

In a fantasy replete with magic the role of heavy troops will inevitably decrease. But in any case shock cavalry will still crush the common infantry and cavalry anyway, so the balance is more or less maintained.

1 hour ago, Auticus said:

If we're being historically accurate, cavalry did crush infantry... that wasn't armed with pikes. 

And with pikes too, like polish winged hussars often did. Infantry in a place where cavalry could charge them properly was never safe even with pikes, muskets and artillery, and even in the 18-19th century. Balance is balance.

[Azamar]

Drakespawn lances are +1 wound and +1 damage on the charge FYI.

not that I disagree with all you said, just wanted to point that out. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

Cavalry crushed broken or open formations against formed sold ranks they had less success. Thing is most infantry broke ranks before the cavalry even reached them its pretty scary having horses running at you and a lot of infantry was of pretty poor quality.  Of course against longbows mounted knights and men at arms didn’t even bother and they got off and walked.   Even against much slow firing muskets they would only work if the infantry wasn’t correctly deployed (not in square)  

AoS isn’t real life though and massed heavy cavalry charges are a stirring trope of fantasy.  Chaos Knights with lances are great on the charge but for the best  heavy cavalry charge feel its got to be a Brass or Blood Thunder Stampede, get the charge with those and watch stuff get squashed  

 

 

[Galas]

My Chaos Knights do their work very well, and my Chaos Marauders do it too. 

I think the problem of Cavalry in AoS is that you no longer have the square formations for charges from the rear or flanks, and artillery pieces aren't as common for your skirmish cavalry.  

Normally, is just a problem of not enough damage for their cost.

[VBS]

http://www.tga.community/forums/topic/10699-cavalry-in-age-of-sigmar/

[Menkeroth]

Aye, and of course your cavalry needs ranged support, it's not that it must charge while the enemy shoots at it. With proper artillery fire support it will be fine.

[Twitch of Izalith]

51 minutes ago, Azamar said:

Drakespawn lances are +1 wound and +1 damage on the charge FYI.

Thanks mate - that may explain why my drakespawn have done so badly in the 3 games I have played them! always pays to read your rules carefully!!!

@VBS sorry if you think the thread is going over old ground - I think its ok to have the discussion again in the light of GH 2017 - as points adjustments to the cav were one of my strong hopes. 

@Galas Marauders are awesome! I run them with the javelins  i love the fast cavalry rules! Chaos knights are also pretty good - and well costed now.

@Auticus Maybe i should have said "some units" Monstrous cav was pretty good. but in general cavalry was , as you said, relegated to a supporting role. I think armoured cavalry never had a suuporting role historically. They were used for shock and awe exclusively until weapons and tactics made them irrelevant. Then they were replaced by other cavalry.

@Ollie Grimwood @Menkeroth I agree with you. Cavalry charges were always devastating when they happened. right up until the Napoleonic wars and beyond, but when they were employed against appropriate targets and I guess that is what I would like to see in AoS and why I like the idea of a longer charge doing more damage. Its risk and positioning delivering reward. We have very strong infantry that can teleport but all the cavalry units are at best solid. If you like the massed cavalry asthetic you have to accept you are running a sub optimal force in competitive games. 

[Twitch of Izalith]

1 minute ago, Auticus said:

The problem I guess then is balance.

If shock cavalry can just bowl over everything like it did in the past wtih whfb, there is no reason to not take it.  Which is IMO a bad game.

Agree completely.

I would like it to be a competitive option rather than an auto include. I suppose it is in some factions. Gore-Gruntas are strong and Brass Stampede looks like it has potential but I'm struggling in Order with some of the more traditional "guy on a horse" options!

[Menkeroth]

21 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

If you like the massed cavalry asthetic you have to accept you are running a sub optimal force in competitive games. 

It must not be dependent on this, competitive side of things changes constantly. Just the right enemy, place and tactics, like it should.

13 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

I'm struggling in Order with some of the more traditional "guy on a horse" options!

when and if they receive their own books I am sure they will be much more potent.

 

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Auticus Yeah I need to revisit my Chaos list - Its a fatesworn battalion so its restricted by the need for 9 units. Its pretty hard to get a lot of cavalry in and still get a list that will compete in all the battleplans.

There is good potential in an Anvilguard list with drakespawn and fulminators because implacable march gives you the chance to push units back in your hero phase and re-charge them with your bonuses. Its annoying they included the auto destruct element in that ability because a lot of TO's will ban the allegiance.

[Menkeroth]

40 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Its pretty hard to get a lot of cavalry in and still get a list that will compete in all the battleplans.

Nothing can compete equally in all the battleplans, like nothing can always win. You should adjust your forces to the scenario or vice verse, but you will never conceive a universal list.

[Kaleun]

Cav. has 3 main abilities for me.
1) Speed
2) Bonus when charging
3) light cav -> ranged Support and arial denial

secondary are their base sizes. With the size of cav. models you can block paths for the enemy if you use them defensivly.

[Sheriff]

 Yeah for some factions the cavalry seems pointless. Anyone ever seen moonclan squig hoppers in a game? I'm still convinced the warscroll has a mistake in it.

(Spider riders however...)

[RuneBrush]

Can see where you're coming from.  I've only just started using Skullcrushers now that they've dropped a bit in points.  They still hit fairly weakly, but do provide a really nice speed bonus for objective grabbing and aren't the easiest thing to remove.  That said I think Skullcrushers were one of the units that really did "win" for me from the new handbook.

What I'd love to see is all heavy cavalry receive their bonus based on the charge roll rather than an additional roll off

[Killax]

19 hours ago, Auticus said:

How was cavalry unusable in WHFB?  Cavalry was awesome in WHFB, you just couldn't bowl into things headlong and shatter them like you could in 6th and 7th edition.  Which is a good thing because 7th edition WHFB was at the tournament level every army checkerboarded as many small units of cavalry as possible.  The only infantry I ever saw at the tournament level were dwarves.  Because they had no cavalry.

I never want to return to those days.  Cavalry is a support tool.  It should be used as such.

If we're being historically accurate, cavalry did crush infantry... that wasn't armed with pikes.  In many wargames, pikes and spears are the counter to cavalry.  In WHFB 6th and 7th those largely didn't exist (yes dogs of war but the models were largely not available) and because of that cavalry ran amuk.

This is a great question and really also the source for the awnser. In 6th edition Cavalry was the default best thing, by large because most units had no reason to go beyond numbers of 20 and charges mend you'd always attack first. In addition there was no compairable back and forth Combat phase as we had now, this mend Cavalry in 6th striked first, killed a ton of models and because in 6th most models could only attack with the first rank of their unit wouldn't be able to attack back. Their power was furthermore supported by having the highest armour save in the game and the best acces to +2 Strenght (charge) bonusses. It mend cavalry was unique in having Movement 7-8" (marches and charges just doubled), had the essential Strenght 5+ and a 3+ or 2+ Armour Save.

Based on the experiences many had in 6th edition units recieved massive buffs in use for 7th and 8th, units obtained the option to attack in more ranks, ignore several combat resolution issues and more importantly charges where not a set distance, meaning the gap between regular Movement 4 and 7 was less large, less akin to 'double the distance'.
In this edition it became clear that Cavalry was still great for support and during later stages where objectives where included in Warhammer Fantasy could adopt the role of claiming objectives aswell. This role is essentially copied for them in Age of Sigmar.

To my knowledge in 7th and 8th infantry Deathstars actually took over quite well. Chaos, Brettonia and Undead played it still but by large because they had no ranged offences that where all too interesting. (This is including Chariots to this whole debate aswell).

I agree with you that I too don't want it to be like 6th, I pretty much like where Cavalry is right now. There are Battalions that drastically reward full Cavalry armies and allow them to crush opponents like the regulars. Not all factions might have that option now but I am quite certain it will be a part of said Faction the moment they have cavalry to begin with. 
Cavalry is an important part of the game but I do like we're not in the same "dark ages" where man didn't know how to deal with a knight. A warrior on horseback isn't the end all be all, he's fast and can thus create the iniative and thake out key pieces. At the same time the warrior is working at such speeds that a minor blow that wouldn't kill him otherwise can kill him (by falling of the horse or otherwise).

[Kaleun]

Often the line is a bit blurry between Cavalry and just-a-elite-unit-on-steed. Some Units might be called Cavalry in AoS but may serve a different purpose.

 

[HobbyHammer]

18 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

Agree completely.

I would like it to be a competitive option rather than an auto include. I suppose it is in some factions. Gore-Gruntas are strong and Brass Stampede looks like it has potential but I'm struggling in Order with some of the more traditional "guy on a horse" options!

Bretonnian Grail Knights! OOP but still a great warscroll

[Valenae]

My dragoblades was nice even without recent points discount.

Sigmarites Fulminators one of the best units in game (if compare in pure math).

AOS have good Cavalary units.

 

But Drakespawn is horrible example of Cavalry. The cost high for they stats and now when all units was discounted and they forgotten - they become even more terrible...

So I suggest you not to take them!

 

Also there are "light cavalry" in AOS.  It is also rarely good choose. 

[Killax]

35 minutes ago, Kaleun said:

Often the line is a bit blurry between Cavalry and just-a-elite-unit-on-steed. Some Units might be called Cavalry in AoS but may serve a different purpose.

 

Yep but as a standard observation this often is what a knight/cavalry is anyway "just-a-elite-unit-on-steed" at least to me is what heavy cavalry is, always was and likely always will be. I do think we've got some nice light cavalry aswell which often shows too in movement options.

40K has the Cavalry Keyword, could have been of use in AoS but since Fast Attack and Elites are more or less the same there anwyay I don't see massive difference in the two up until we include buildings and the like.

My moral so far is that cavalry typically works as it should. Heavy cavalry has charge impacts, Monsterous cavalry has that too and more wounds, don't really know what should be different there...

29 minutes ago, Valenae said:

Also there are "light cavalry" in AOS.  It is also rarely good choose. 

Rarely isn't really the word, I'd say there is about as good light cavalry as there are good unit choices overall. E.g. Marauder Horsemen are quite good. Freeguild Postoliers seem allright too. Then again there isn't too much light cavalry anymore anyway. 

[Menkeroth]

1 hour ago, Kaleun said:

Often the line is a bit blurry between Cavalry and just-a-elite-unit-on-steed. Some Units might be called Cavalry in AoS but may serve a different purpose.

It's one and the same thing actually.

21 minutes ago, Killax said:

Rarely isn't really the word, I'd say there is about as good light cavalry as there are good unit choices overall. E.g. Marauder Horsemen are quite good. Freeguild Postoliers seem allright too. Then again there isn't too much light cavalry anymore anyway. 

And former ellyrian reavers too

[stato]

Ive not read many AoS novels (half one infact) so dont know if its something they have kind of written out of the lore?  Certainly it seems like they are going for a more troops and heroic monsters than cavalry style theme.

[MaatithoftheBrand]

I might be wrong but I think the nomad tribes that follow the Great Worms ride horses?

[Tyromancer]

10 hours ago, Valenae said:

My dragoblades was nice even without recent points discount.

Sigmarites Fulminators one of the best units in game (if compare in pure math).

AOS have good Cavalary units.

 

But Drakespawn is horrible example of Cavalry. The cost high for they stats and now when all units was discounted and they forgotten - they become even more terrible...

So I suggest you not to take them!

 

Also there are "light cavalry" in AOS.  It is also rarely good choose. 

Drakespawn should have gotten the discount as well.  They are nearly the same as the Dragonblades, but now they are more expensive with fewer attacks.

 

I've been playing both the Aelven Orders for the last year or so and one thing that has been mentioned as a means to make the cav in the game more effective is to give them rend on the charge as well (or any at all for Drakespawn or Dragonblades).  Armor piercing was a factor in WHFB due to the strength bonus, but all we get now is the damage output.  That being said, Wild Riders are quite useless for the points as they lack the bonus damage, shield, and hero bonuses.  At least Drakespawn and Dragonblades get rerolls to hit, wound, or save depending on the shields and command abilities.  If going into close combat prevented a unit from shooting, then their run and charge could be useful.  Now it really only helps versus warmachines and taking out the light armored crews.

 

 

[Thanatos Ares]

Cavalry still has its place I think, and can still cause the epic devastation from a charge cinematic.

take Blood Knights for example. They are still quiet expensive for 5 models. 

If they get the charge against a large unit (not an elite unit) that IS NOT immune to battle shock then you can cause carnage. 

I have had the opposite to my scenario happen to me. I charged a unit of 20(?) Blood reavers that were unbreakable and rubber Lance syndrome ensured. I caused a woeful amount of damage most of which was saved and then nothing in the battleshock phase. My elite shock cavalry ended up in a grind fest for 3 whole turns with 20 Blood reavers!!!!