Sorcerer Lord vs Sorcerer Lord on Manticore. Points values seem a tad off. ;)

[themortalgod]

Has anyone else noticed that the points values of the normal sorcerer lord (160) vs the sorcerer lord on manticore (200) seem a bit odd? Basically paying 40pts for a behemoth for your sorcerer to ride. I'm sort of feeling the cost of the regular sorcerer lord is a bit extreme if you compare him to say a Gaunt Summoner with Familiars from Everchosen. He doesn't get +1 to cast, doesn't get a ranged attack, doesn't get to cast 2 spells. His only real strength over a gaunt is the ability make a unit re-roll saves of 1. Doesn't seem like the sorcerer lord on foot even stacks up to parity with a Gaunt summoner who is 40pts cheaper. Any thoughts on why the sorcerer lord is so expensive?

Meanwhile, 200pts for a flying behemoth caster that can buff a unit to re-roll saves of 1 seems like a steal of a deal. 

Wondering how everyone else feels? Sorcerer Lord overpriced? Sorcerer Lord on Manticore underpriced? Is there a compelling reason to ever not just pay the extra pts for the monstrous mount other than maybe just not having the model? (Yes, I know their spells are different, but both are pretty strong spells so I'd say they balance each other out in that regard)

 

[Tubs]

The sorceror on foots spell is far far superior . That's pretty much it

[themortalgod]

4 minutes ago, Tubs said:

The sorceror on foots spell is far far superior . That's pretty much it

I think they are both pretty good spells. If you have a target with really high quality attacks to put the buff on it can bring quite a bit of value, but enough to justify paying 160pts for a caddy just to do that spell? This is just a single target spell, it isn't say a re-roll 1s aura like the ones dominating the 40k meta right now, it doesn't multiply THAT much.  Which, imo, most of the time isn't worth 160pts but sometimes can be clutch.

Think about it this way, 5 knights + Sorcerer Buff (80% of the time)  vs 10 Knights, who wins? (both worth 320pts), odds favor the 10man unit quite a bit. 

Same comparison with the manticore, 5 knights + Manticore lord vs 11 Knights, who wins? That one is a lot closer of a contest. 

Not to say its always super cut and dry but I don't think the sorcerer lord on foot is easy to justify 160pts for just for that spell. Especially when a Gaunt summoner at 40pts cheaper fills the "sorcerer" role as well and brings a huge volume of mortal wounds against most armies AND can toss a mystic shield each turn which is a 16.7% increase in durability.

Based on other things in the game, I sorta feel the sorcerer lord on foot should be about 100pts, while the one on manticore should probably be about 240pts. At least in my opinion. 

 

 

 

[lastdarkness]

Keywords differances mate as well, dont forget those. Plus if your playing the Sorc as mounted the movement differance isnt much.

If anything I feel like this is more of a push to get people to buy the manticore model.

 

I can definetly say ive been using the Sorc on Manticore for a year now to great effect.

 

 

[someone2040]

I think it's important to recognize a few things:

Multipliers very rarely double the effective power of a unit, so any comparison of 5 Knights w Daemonic Power vs 10 is a bit useless. In fact, it's maths in a vacuum, and doesn't take into account other factors like fitting all 10 Knights into a combat or the Oracular Visions the Sorcerer Lord also deals out. Those same 5 Knights would come out behind even if the Sorcerer Lord was still 140 points.

Sometimes you just need to buff one unit to deal a ton of damage, as that's the most important thing to do in that turn. Doesn't matter whether or not you can squeeze in another unit instead of the Sorcerer Lord if your game plan requires buffing units to be extra killy.

Buffs are easier to use than spells that effect enemy units. This is mainly due to the fact the Hero Phase occurs before Movement, meaning in general, you're always in range to cast buff spells, not always in range to cast aggressive spells.

And lastly, I think you really under-estimate Daemonic Power as a spell. No, it's not an aura, but it's giving a unit basically everything it needs to be to be reliable. Re-rolling both hit and wound rolls of 1 makes many offensive units pretty insane, as it adds in that safety net. Pretty much never been sad in the past when I cast Daemonic Power on my Chaos Chosen or Be'Lakor.

 

Ultimately though, it comes down to you and your playstyle. Perhaps for your case, you don't need the buff, and prefer the more aggressive option in the Manticore Sorcerer Lord. That's fine, and it's definitely a competitive choice given there's only 40 points difference between the two now. Other people prefer being able to make a unit super reliable with Daemonic Power while giving some armour save love on the side. While for others, perhaps both aren't even that useful, and you're looking to other sections of Chaos for wizards. Great thing about AoS, they're all good choices.

[Skorvan]

I think it depend if you play with the StD allegiance or Chaos allegiance.

With the StD allegiance, you can mark your unit so they receive a buff from a StD hero with the same mark. If we take your exemple, your 5 knights (nurgle for the exemple) receice a buff from the allegiance, re-roll wound of 1, and the buff from the wizard, re-roll save of 1.

So the sorcerer lord was a great support but now he is even better because you can cast an other spell than the daemonic power. And it is what the sorcerer lord on manticore provided, a damage spell with, if you are lucky, can inflict a lot of mortal wound.

For now, i'm playing with the sorceler lord and he is verry usefull but i'm going to replace him with the same on manticore, for 40 pts he made a great difference.

Ho and the familiar doesn't gave +1 to cast roll anymore, they changed that one month ago approximatively.

[Roark]

2 hours ago, themortalgod said:

Especially when a Gaunt summoner at 40pts cheaper fills the "sorcerer" role as well and brings a huge volume of mortal wounds against most armies AND can toss a mystic shield each turn which is a 16.7% increase in durability

A huge volume? Forgive my ignorance, but what's the big deal with Fractal Mindstorm? Say I go on the safe side of average and target a Bravery 6 unit. That's gonna average 3 mortal wounds. Am I missing something?

[Spiny Norman]

2 spells, 3 MW's average on a single spell, just 120 pts......not worth taking in a Tzeentch army.

Missed nothing, bro.

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, Roark said:

A huge volume? Forgive my ignorance, but what's the big deal with Fractal Mindstorm? Say I go on the safe side of average and target a Bravery 6 unit. That's gonna average 3 mortal wounds. Am I missing something?

 

56 minutes ago, Spiny Norman said:

2 spells, 3 MW's average on a single spell, just 120 pts......not worth taking in a Tzeentch army.

Missed nothing, bro.

the silver tower one with the familiers could easily do 20 mortal wounds a turn... 

spell is crying for a nerf. 

2 hours ago, lastdarkness said:

If anything I feel like this is more of a push to get people to buy the manticore model.

 

the rules are still garbage tbh 

[AverageBoss]

7 hours ago, Roark said:

A huge volume? Forgive my ignorance, but what's the big deal with Fractal Mindstorm? Say I go on the safe side of average and target a Bravery 6 unit. That's gonna average 3 mortal wounds. Am I missing something?

You are looking at the wrong Gaunt Summoner (the one on disk). Both foot versions (the one with and the one without familiars) have a spell called Infernal Flames. It reads:

"The Gaunt Summoner conjures a rolling wave of scorching wyrdfire that engulfs enemy formations Infernal Flames has a casting value of 8. If successfully cast, pick a visible enemy unit and roll 1 dice for each model in the target unit that is within 18" of the caster; the unit suffers 1 mortal wound for each roll of 4 or more. Roll 3 dice for each Monster or War Machine in the target unit, rather than only 1 dice."

It is a pretty brutal spell that on average cuts single wound units in half. It is also pretty popular to put him on a balewind vortex, doubling his range and giving him up to +3 to cast.

[Chris Tomlin]

14 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

It is a pretty brutal spell that on average cuts single wound units in half.

..and then battleshocks off the rest!

[Nico]

The foot one is a bit expensive.

Gaunt Summoner is one of the bedrocks of DoT. He isn't the only horde blender out there - Drycha and Lightning Charioting Medusae (until that gets FAQed) are both better. Drycha isn't 5 wounds and a 6+ save either.

[Twitch of Izalith]

I think Demonic power is a strong spell - its buffing hit, wound and save rolls where most buffs only hit one stat.

He may be a little over priced though when compared to other casters - 140 points is maybe a bit fairer. he has decent armour too.

Gaunt summoner is easy to kill unless he is Tzeentch allegiance and has treacherous bond. ..and is standing on a balewind vortex.

I like using the Curseling in my Tzeentch mortal list. I'm surprised you don't see him more often but maybe its because he is a resin model.

[SpiritofHokuto]

16 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said:

I think Demonic power is a strong spell - its buffing hit, wound and save rolls where most buffs only hit one stat.

He may be a little over priced though when compared to other casters - 140 points is maybe a bit fairer. he has decent armour too.

Gaunt summoner is easy to kill unless he is Tzeentch allegiance and has treacherous bond. ..and is standing on a balewind vortex.

I like using the Curseling in my Tzeentch mortal list. I'm surprised you don't see him more often but maybe its because he is a resin model.

Yeah the Curseling can be a real thorn in your opponents side. Running him next to a suitable unit to use Treacherous Bond on will really make your opponent think twice about casting spells that don't have faction specific targets. It opens the possibility of having two Mystic Shields up and reflecting most offensive spells back at them. Using Souldraught in your opponents turns is particularly nasty as you get 3D6 for both the unbind and recasting attempts.

The Sorc Lord is perhaps a bit overcosted but it does bring an incredible amount of utility with it so I guess you're paying for the flexibility. I always take one with my Tzeentch Fatesworn army as Demonic Power on a big unit of Chaos Warriors that gets teleported into your opponents face via Sayl is a thing of beauty. 

[Killax]

Yeah this is an interesting topic so early on still in GH2017.

I think the Sorcerer Lord is a tad expensive and the Sorcerer Lord on Manticore is a cheaper deal. However as been pointed out, there are pros and cons to either and despite the Sorcerer Lord cost increase there are many Slaves to Darkness units who have seen a cost decrease and I think this is how the design team wanted to balance things out.

In another example, we see Bloodthirsters and Bloodletters being cheaper for Blades of Khorne but at the same time Valkia's cost is increased. Now to my knowledge Valkia has not shown any competitive results in 2016 to 2017 but regardless the increase has been applied. In my eyes it's more a saveguard for the designers to not make everything just cheaper and thus have the army perhaps preform as unwished for. I believe the designer team has tested several armies but due to the sheer quantity of it all I also think armies arn't tested with 200 plus hours  

The Sorcerer Lord is still affordable at 160, the Sorcerer Lord on Manticore is a great magical monster deal at 200.

[Chris Tomlin]

@Twitch of Izalith - Ha! Serves me for trying to be smart. I am completely wrong and indeed meant the Changeling. Apologies!!

I have hidden our posts (and my shame!) as to not clog up the thread with off topic stuff.

[Tasman]

On 10/17/2017 at 3:01 AM, Spiny Norman said:

2 spells, 3 MW's average on a single spell, just 120 pts......not worth taking in a Tzeentch army.

Missed nothing, bro.

If I'm playing Tzeentch, I don't leave home without him. An incredible bargain at 120.

That said, I'd say that the sorclord is little op.... maybe 140 is where he should be and the manticore sorc would be more realistically priced in the 220-240 range. Just sayin'.

[Spiny Norman]

I was joking.

I feel sorry for Tzeentch and SCE players. They miss the opportunity to be part of a fairly balanced system.

[SpiritofHokuto]

6 hours ago, Killax said:

Yeah this is an interesting topic so early on still in GH2017.

I think the Sorcerer Lord is a tad expensive and the Sorcerer Lord on Manticore is a cheaper deal. However as been pointed out, there are pros and cons to either and despite the Sorcerer Lord cost increase there are many Slaves to Darkness units who have seen a cost decrease and I think this is how the design team wanted to balance things out.

In another example, we see Bloodthirsters and Bloodletters being cheaper for Blades of Khorne but at the same time Valkia's cost is increased. Now to my knowledge Valkia has not shown any competitive results in 2016 to 2017 but regardless the increase has been applied. In my eyes it's more a saveguard for the designers to not make everything just cheaper and thus have the army perhaps preform as unwished for. I believe the designer team has tested several armies but due to the sheer quantity of it all I also think armies arn't tested with 200 plus hours  

The Sorcerer Lord is still affordable at 160, the Sorcerer Lord on Manticore is a great magical monster deal at 200.

I'm just not that enamoured with the Sorc Lord on Manticore. There is definitely a considerable spike in survivability and some half decent attacks added. But the spell for it isn't all that great and pales in comparison to Demonic Power. Tzeentch isn't exactly hurting for good offensive spells, which is a real shame because it is a good deal for the combat potential.   

[Killax]

3 hours ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

I'm just not that enamoured with the Sorc Lord on Manticore. There is definitely a considerable spike in survivability and some half decent attacks added. But the spell for it isn't all that great and pales in comparison to Demonic Power. Tzeentch isn't exactly hurting for good offensive spells, which is a real shame because it is a good deal for the combat potential.   

I agree with you but 200 points remains a low point investment for a flyer like it. Their tasks are indeed different!

[SpiritofHokuto]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

I agree with you but 200 points remains a low point investment for a flyer like it. Their tasks are indeed different!

Yeah to be fair just give it Infusion Arcanum and it can go off by itself and cause your opponent some real headaches.